2025 Formula One Season Thread

[The-Real-Deal82]

Everyone fumed about it when an Italian team did it, and when the Singapore GP deliberate crash happened (gave Alonso a useful time to pit).

Teams will probably still find ways to get around it, but it has to be stopped.

Just because the team is British doesn’t mean they should be excused.

I don't think the fact the team are British has any bearing on the recation as we've seen many moments since 2002 where team orders have been used. Austria 2002 had a negative reaction because of how it was done and when it was done. Rubens dominated the race and Michael was well ahead in the championship and didn't need the win. I think even Michael was embarassed by the whole thing and gave his win at Indy to Rubens to give him back a deserved win. Lando pulled aside and slowed from a 6 second lead in Hungary last season to give Oscar a win and although it was controversial, I cannot understand why yesterday is getting more attention. The team made a mistake and they had to correct it to make sure both drivers are treated fairly going into the last part of the season. If team orders come in and start favouring one driver in particular, then I think there is an issue.

Red Bull and Mercedes are both British teams and got a lot of flack for issuing team orders over the last decade.

 

[headlessmike]

I don't think the fact the team are British has any bearing on the recation as we've seen many moments since 2002 where team orders have been used. Austria 2002 had a negative reaction because of how it was done and when it was done. Rubens dominated the race and Michael was well ahead in the championship and didn't need the win. I think even Michael was embarassed by the whole thing and gave his win at Indy to Rubens to give him back a deserved win. Lando pulled aside and slowed from a 6 second lead in Hungary last season to give Oscar a win and although it was controversial, I cannot understand why yesterday is getting more attention. The team made a mistake and they had to correct it to make sure both drivers are treated fairly going into the last part of the season. If team orders come in and start favouring one driver in particular, then I think there is an issue.

Red Bull and Mercedes are both British teams and got a lot of flack for issuing team orders over the last decade.

We've grown used to seeing team orders used to protect the championship contender. I think the reason this occasion stands out is how many perceive the team leadership to be systematically working against their own championship leader. The situation is a bit different given that both main contenders are on the same team, but team orders are a slippery slope and if the team forces Oscar to give Lando back P2 because of a mistake, then Oscar's request at Silverstone doesn't seem too outlandish assuming the team agreed with him in considering the penalty unfair. It would be easier if we didn't allow team orders in the first place.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

We've grown used to seeing team orders used to protect the championship contender. I think the reason this occasion stands out is how many perceive the team leadership to be systematically working against their own championship leader. The situation is a bit different given that both main contenders are on the same team, but team orders are a slippery slope and if the team forces Oscar to give Lando back P2 because of a mistake, then Oscar's request at Silverstone doesn't seem too outlandish assuming the team agreed with him in considering the penalty unfair. It would be easier if we didn't allow team orders in the first place.

I would rather not see team orders too, and would much rather have seen McLaren allow Lando to attack Oscar in the final 8 laps, risk or not. They are trying to keep it fair and team harmony is important at this stage. Had team orders not been used, we could have seen the start of a huge fallout and Stella watched McLaren implode in 2007 from the comfort of the Ferrari pitwall, so knows it is a delicate situation to manage.

 

[avro707]

They can get away from team orders completely by tweaking Piastri's car a little bit, few other little hidden changes so it isn't quite as fast.

No team orders, but the same effect. Let's see if they do that now that they've been roasted. They could even suggest that Piastri was just having a bad weekend, just poor luck.

What will McLaren do if Piastri decides to not play nice anymore...

 

[pachyderm]

They can get away from team orders completely by tweaking Piastri's car a little bit, few other little hidden changes so it isn't quite as fast.

No team orders, but the same effect. Let's see if they do that now that they've been roasted. They could even suggest that Piastri was just having a bad weekend, just poor luck.

What will McLaren do if Piastri decides to not play nice anymore...

They'll be picking up a lot of car debris...

How McLaren's Monza team orders played out

Mark Hughes breaks down the key moments and reaction behind McLaren's team orders during the Italian Grand Prix.

www.formula1.com

 

[pachyderm]

The trophy ... explained...?

 

[CWallace]

Kind of disappointed in Norris. I thought it would be the right thing to do during the after race interview to say Oscar was a real gentleman.

Honestly, saying nothing was probably the best course of action. This keeps the criticism focus on it being a decision by the team that Lando had no input into.

They don't owe any driver anything. Drivers are employed by the teams, not the other way around. Norris had better track position, sadly due to a better qualifying position, and the team choose to pit him second. If the positions were different, we would have seen the opposite situation. McClaren were transparent.

Pretty much. "Papaya Rules" are there to prevent another Prost-Senna or Alonso-Lewis situation and team management has been very clear that you either play by them, or you look for a drive elsewhere. McLaren is now strong enough that most drivers would happily sign for the team under those conditions.

They can get away from team orders completely by tweaking Piastri's car a little bit, few other little hidden changes so it isn't quite as fast.

I've heard it said that Lando has a much larger commercial value to McLaren as WDC than Piastri does, but deliberately manipulating the outcome of the WDC on those grounds would likely backfire spectacularly. And do not forget we have MBS and his ruthless crushing of anything that bring "disrepute" to the FIA. I could easily see him fining McLaren the full value of their first place finish in the CC for such an action.

What will McLaren do if Piastri decides to not play nice anymore...

Fire him.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I think given it’s a two horse race, the FIA would be happy that the title is likely to go on longer.
But I still see Oscar taking the title unless he picks up a DNF.

 

[Glideslope]

Oscar didn't get to take part in FP1, which could explain his pace deficit this weekend.

He commented in post that it wasn’t helpful…..

 

[Madonepro]

I think given it’s a two horse race, the FIA would be happy that the title is likely to go on longer.
But I still see Oscar taking the title unless he picks up a DNF.

The strategy was the driver with track position, stay ahead. The pit had a problem with that, so they rectified it.
Ultimately everyone on the pits, works for McClaren, including the drivers, so the FIA have no input.

 

[JustinePaula]

One could argue the point that what happened after the pitstop that took 2 weeks, and that saw Piastry ahead, and that he gave up his 2nd for a 3rd, you could argue that brought the FIA/F1/Liberty into disrepute, as it was not in the spirit of motorsport, it is a team sport, and as a team you win/loose as a team, boo hoo Lando had a shoddy pitstop, this is F1, not kindergarten little league...

To manipulate the result to suit a driver is matchfixing, it is cheating. It is a scam on the event.

 

[TheIntruder]

To put it kind terms, "managed competition" during Ferrari's dominant streak is one reason why I tired and lost much interest in F1.

At this rate, McLaren will end up tainting the accomplishment of whomever is declared the champion between the two drivers, which is ultimately unfair to both.

 

[pachyderm]

"We said a slow pit stop is part of racing, so I don't get what's really changed here..." - Oscar Piastri

 

[JustinePaula]

MacLaren should just be honest, admit they cheated, accept the $100m fine, and ban from the 2025 championship, and promise to do better [ie less obvious] in 2026..

 

[Madonepro]

MacLaren should just be honest, admit they cheated, accept the $100m fine, and ban from the 2025 championship, and promise to do better [ie less obvious] in 2026..

We really must ask the MR team to add more 'emotions' under the guise of the 'like' button. Rolling eyes would be good. 🙄🙄🙄🙄

 

[JustinePaula]

Every team is mandated to "cheat" that is push the regulations to the point of just over the edge, but not enough to be obvious.. Better to seek forgiveness, than to ask for permission?? We really should have 3 titles every year, Drivers, Constructors, and "Accountants Creative" [Hiding the overspend..]

 

[CWallace]

Every team is mandated to "cheat" that is push the regulations to the point of just over the edge, but not enough to be obvious.. Better to seek forgiveness, than to ask for permission?? We really should have 3 titles every year, Drivers, Constructors, and "Accountants Creative" [Hiding the overspend..]

For someone who has followed F1 as long as you have claimed, I honestly find many of your takes quite baffling in their ignorance of the sport's history and culture.

 

[JustinePaula]

Teams have been "cheating" since the invention of cheating.. It is in the rules, [not really, but it should be..] Teams will do anything, legal or not, to win.. And I hope and pray this never ends, pushing the rules to the very limit [and beyond] is what pushes innovation, at times teams go too far.. Mercedes with the 2 axis steering wheel, pull to do this or that? Rear fans, blown diffusers, a way to beat the lights...

I have been watching F1 since the early 80's, back then, it was all mechanical, no servers, sorry servers were in catering.. But now in 2025, as we advance towards a united formula, a F2 advanced formula.. As teams struggle, and wonder why they are struggling.. Which is curious, why don't they know???

Has it not dawned on them, they are in fact in a technology cul de saq? That there is only 1 true answer? How can the PHD's not know this? That the CAD, computer aided design, is also computer aided destruction? So teams try this or that, to find a way, a loophole, a gap in the regulations..

In every sport the best teams are the ones that are willing to innovate, to test the limits of the regulations, if they don't then we might as well stick to racing horse drawn wagons.. Sorry, we cannot do that, we will innovate, and that was innovation, from running naked in the olden time Olympics??

What ignorance? Look at Tyrell, with the 6 wheel car, we have seen examples over the decades, of cars with insane wings, to get downforce.. Without downforce we would not have 80 minute grand prix [and that is bad, it should be longer-100 minutes]

I love F1, I want to see 4 teams fighting for 20/21 weeks for 2 titles, and the ban on budgets, if you cannot afford to race, you move on, try chess or sponsor a netball team.. F1 should have 15 teams, 30 cars, fighting for grid slots, the last race, 17 on the grid, 2 in pit-lane, and 1 car best left in a skip... Pathetic, stupid, really awful to see so few cars in the "best" formula in Europe???? 17 cars...

Over regulated, and in crisis is what F1 is... Yes MacLaren did not cheat, but brought the system into disrepute, no question, it sets a dangerous precedent.. What if they are 1 point separated, who wins?

What we cannot say is that the 2025 world drivers title was won fairly, IT WAS NOT.. So we cancel the title for 2025.. Or award it to anyone that finished 3rd.. The title is tainted, it has no value.. NONE!! It cannot be seen as legit now.. If you think it has, that is a you problem. It is tainted, fruit of the poisonous tree!!!

 

[CWallace]

The Cost Cap and Wind Tunnel / CFD restrictions have almost certainly put a damper on "innovation", but without them, you get back to the 2000-2020 era where only the full factory teams like Ferrari, Red Bull and AMG Mercedes that produce both their own chassis and PUs can compete because only they can invest the upwards of a half-billion a year needed to "innovate to dominate". Remember if not for the Cost Cap, when Mercedes' "zero side-pod" chassis design failed, they would have just dumped another GBP100 million-plus developing an all-new car during the season.

And with such an intrenched position and advantage for "full" teams like Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes, the chances of even new full manufacturing teams entering might not happen. Both Honda and Toyota spent billions on their full factory teams, yet never won a Constructors Championship because Ferrari and Red Bull spent even more. And we'll never see a "customer" team like McLaren or Williams or Aston Martin ever win another CC.

As for the 2025 WDC, we're nowhere near the "taint" of the 2021 WDC at this point. But then, maybe McLaren will take a page from Ferrari at the 1999 European Grand Prix and at Abu Dhabi forget to bring out four tires during Oscar's pit stop if he is ahead of Lando and in a position to win the WDC by finishing ahead.

 

[avro707]

In the old days you had Renault with its prototype F1 turbo car that did not even race, before they came along with the eventual first turbo car (yellow teapot) in the late 70s, forcing everyone to abandon their favourite Cosworth 3.0L V8s at great expense.

F1 has always been about big budgets and high amounts of R&D/testing.

And before than you had the brutal Mercedes W125 with up to 736hp (the special 12 cylinder version) attaining unheard of performance in the battle with Auto Union. Two big factory teams battling for dominance in the late 1930s. They even used special exotic fuels. It was known to stay well away from the Merc cars on startup because of the exhaust fumes which caused intense irritation if you happened to be in the path of those fumes.

Merc had even dyno rigs to test the engines, the Rennabteillung led by Alfred Neubauer was highly sophisticated.

This big factory influence is nothing new.

 

[CWallace]

In the old days you had Renault with its prototype F1 turbo car that did not even race, before they came along with the eventual first turbo car (yellow teapot) in the late 70s, forcing everyone to abandon their favourite Cosworth 3.0L V8s at great expense.

F1 has always been about big budgets and high amounts of R&D/testing.

Indeed. We also used to have dedicated "qualifying engines" that were designed to only last said session due being run extra-hard and with less-robust internals to lower weight.

And when F1 had single-lap qualifying, factory teams like Ferrari considered building cars with no sidepod inlets for radiators as they could have a more streamlined shape and the engine would only need to survive that one lap.

 

[avro707]

Indeed. We also used to have dedicated "qualifying engines" that were designed to only last said session due being run extra-hard and with less-robust internals to lower weight.

And when F1 had single-lap qualifying, factory teams like Ferrari considered building cars with no sidepod inlets for radiators as they could have a more streamlined shape and the engine would only need to survive that one lap.

And teams like McLaren (Mercedes) and Honda developed special engines with extremely expensive materials.

That Honda V10 I think did only very few races before it got excluded by rule changes to minimise costs. If I am not mistaken that V10 was supposed to be almost 1000hp. Pretty amazing from 3.0 litres with no turbocharging.

 

[JustinePaula]

There is a reason F1 cars look the same, as that is how physics works, there is only 1 right answer, and each team has found out that this is in fact true.. Teams over the last 100+ years have tried all sorts of bright ideas to find the answer, a win, a title..

F1 could within 24 hours have 15x 2 car teams on the grid for 2026, each of the 15 teams running unlimited budgets, pretty sure at least 5 teams on the F2/F3 system would migrate up.. But then what is the point? F2 is by far the "better" formula if you are a driver, you know going in, if you win, you are the best driver in that system...

F1, has 10 teams, no one can know who is the best, as there is no reliable metric, to say Lando wins the Drivers title is so unfair as he had an unfair car, it was better, why? A title should be about merit.. Lando may not be the best driver, could be worse than Tsnouda, but fate/happistance to be in MacLaren. If Yuki was in MacLaren would he be winning races??

So how anyone can accept that a driver has a title when there is no metric to assess competence.. I have always wondered.. When Nico beat Lewis 2016, that was like v like, Nico was that year in that car, the better driver..

Having a World Drivers Champion in a system that has 10 teams, with 10 different cars, I don't know seems a bit bizarre, I am having a hard time trying to marry the F1 philosophy, with that of F2/F3..

Why is F2/F3 a mono formula? Why is F2/F3 not a cheaper F1? In which you have teams design their own car, and race what they think is a better car for a cheaper version of F1? Why is F2/F3 using 1 car formula, you cannot design, you race someone else's formula... But F1 is you race what we think within a set of regulations...

But the regulations force upon 10/11 teams that cars will be virtually identical in all respects, then you whinge about no overtakes.. Math ain't mathing.. Strange..

 

[avro707]

There is a reason F1 cars look the same, as that is how physics works, there is only 1 right answer, and each team has found out that this is in fact true.. Teams over the last 100+ years have tried all sorts of bright ideas to find the answer, a win, a title..

It is also because the rules limit freedoms of design (which you mentioned a bit later).

So nobody is allowed an 18” diameter “cooling” fan at the back of the car these days, and you are only allowed 4 wheels. Skirts are banned. Various other limitations.

In the older days there were quite radical differences- especially cars like the Lotus 80 or the 88B (twin chassis). Then the famous P34 Tyrrell for instance or the Williams FW07 and FW08 with the 6 wheeled adaptation, or the spazzaneve 312.

Wings became crazy after the skirts disappeared and everyone wanted to regain lost downforce.

If rules allowed, then at Monza you’d have closed bodywork of an aero configuration as often occurred in the old days.

 

[JustinePaula]

It is also because the rules limit freedoms of design (which you mentioned a bit later).

NO, the rules play no role in the problem, the rules/regulations highlight the problem of physics..

You see you could have a bring anything you want, no budget cap, and you will have 20/30 cars that are identical in every aspect, same engine, same aero, same tyres, same, 100% identical, did they copy? NOPE..

So why do we have this formula? It was a useful formula back in the 1950's, but as we have CAD, we no longer have a viable formula.. Not sure why everyone tries so hard.. When they should know it is a completely pointless exercise..

The rules harm more than they heal... The formula is deceased.. It is a dead formula, it has no future, other than as F2.. F2 is the where F1 will be within 20 yrs!!!