2025 Formula One Season Thread

[Glideslope]

I fully applaud Verstappen for having an interest in racing other classes, like the revered drivers of the past did, and hope he does more of it.

But let's not get carried away. He was competing in an NLS series race, on a weekend when its best team wasn't on the grid.

It's still only the equivalent of getting his feet wet, as driver and team owner.

There are more rungs on the ladder in GT racing, and many, many places to race a GT3 car, if the formula is what piques his interest in particular.

"F1" means F1, but GT3, which is celebrating its 20th anniversary as a formula, omits a lot of context when used as a term in isolation. NLS? DTM? SRO? IMSA? WEC? They've all adopted the GT3 regs as classes in their series.

I’m not getting carried away in the least. This event was about the tens of thousands of race fans that watched their first GT Race today.

It’s great for the sport today and the future. It also demonstrates Max’s ability with his team to identify where future growth is developing. This was mostly about the future of Verstappen Racing not Max winning.

 

[TheIntruder]

I’m not getting carried away in the least. This event was about the tens of thousands of race fans that watched their first GT Race today.

It’s great for the sport today and the future. It also demonstrates Max’s ability with his team to identify where future growth is developing. This was mostly about the future of Verstappen Racing not Max winning.

He made a cameo in a domestic series, run by clubs, and a field composed mostly of amateurs.

Even during the N24, when the OEMs provide some backing to the local teams, and dispatch their pro, Pt-rated drivers to uphold their honor and win bragging rights in the IGTC (if they've bothered to register to earn points in that competition), the SP9 class composes a fraction of the 20 classes that run, with amateur drivers.

It's not unlike the SRO-sanctioned series where rich guys can indulge their racing hobbies in machines that pros also compete in, and anyone who can afford to buy a ride with an existing team, or cough up the ~600-800k money sums to buy a GT3 car and run it themselves, is welcome.

Those are a step below the xLMS series, where the OEMs place their junior program drivers in the pro ladder to gain experience, and the names are more easily recognizable.

What he didn't do was jump into a car in IMSA, or the WEC, race with PT-rated drivers who are on the same level as peers, with factory programs at a profressional level. Given his stature, there is no doubt any of the factory programs would offer him a seat if he wanted it, and he would probably fare well.

He's fathest from someone like Alonso, who took the time off during an F1 season to try the Indy 500, and run the WEC and LM24 with Toyota.

Whatever endgame results, for either him as a driver, or as a team owner, this is still the nascent beginning, representing him indulging in his own hobby, until shown otherwise.

Like I said, I'd welcome seeing him follows this path at some time in the future, but for now, it's important to have some perspective.

And in sports car racing, even a star driver is a single part of the lineup in the car, so no one person can claim the entire spotlight.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

He made a cameo in a domestic series, run by clubs, and a field composed mostly of amateurs.

Even during the N24, when the OEMs provide some backing to the local teams, and dispatch their pro, Pt-rated drivers to uphold their honor and win bragging rights in the IGTC (if they've bothered to register to earn points in that competition), the SP9 class composes a fraction of the 20 classes that run, with amateur drivers.

It's not unlike the SRO-sanctioned series where rich guys can indulge their racing hobbies in machines that pros also compete in, and anyone who can afford to buy a ride with an existing team, or cough up the ~600-800k money sums to buy a GT3 car and run it themselves, is welcome.

Those are a step below the xLMS series, where the OEMs place their junior program drivers in the pro ladder to gain experience, and the names are more easily recognizable.

What he didn't do was jump into a car in IMSA, or the WEC, race with PT-rated drivers who are on the same level as peers, with factory programs at a profressional level. Given his stature, there is no doubt any of the factory programs would offer him a seat if he wanted it, and he would probably fare well.

He's fathest from someone like Alonso, who took the time off during an F1 season to try the Indy 500, and run the WEC and LM24 with Toyota.

Whatever endgame results, for either him as a driver, or as a team owner, this is still the nascent beginning, representing him indulging in his own hobby, until shown otherwise.

Like I said, I'd welcome seeing him follows this path at some time in the future, but for now, it's important to have some perspective.

And in sports car racing, even a star driver is a single part of the lineup in the car, so no one person can claim the entire spotlight.

Having watched it, it felt similar to if Mo Salah turned up for a Sunday League game in Stoke On Trent. It demonstrated the gulf of difference in ability between drivers and it didn't surprise me at all that Max won.

 

[headlessmike]

With F1 being the (rather predictable) material sport that it is, I always enjoy seeing the drivers take on other types of racing where there is a more level playing field. Hopefully this opens the door to more events, with stronger competition, for Max and lowers the barriers for other F1 drivers to do more types of racing.

 

[CWallace]

He's fathest from someone like Alonso, who took the time off during an F1 season to try the Indy 500, and run the WEC and LM24 with Toyota.

True, but Alonso competed in those events for history and legacy reasons (to become only the second driver to complete the Triple Crown after Graham Hill). Verstappen competed in this event (and the upcoming N24) for his love of motor racing.

Max has already ruled out a run at the Triple Crown as he has no interest in competing in the Indy 500. And with LeMans and F1 now on the same date again (Canada this year and Spain next year), he likely will have to wait until he leaves F1 to give that race a shot. Same with the 24 Hours of Spa, which runs opposite the Austrian Grand Prix next year. (He is able to do the N24 next year because it falls into the gap between the Miami and Canadian Grands Prix.)

 

[cyb3rdud3]

And also somewhat related to the top, I love this, love the angle and viewing experience, also love the attitude of just building it when it doesn't exist.

 

[Glideslope]

True, but Alonso competed in those events for history and legacy reasons (to become only the second driver to complete the Triple Crown after Graham Hill). Verstappen competed in this event (and the upcoming N24) for his love of motor racing.

Max has already ruled out a run at the Triple Crown as he has no interest in competing in the Indy 500. And with LeMans and F1 now on the same date again (Canada this year and Spain next year), he likely will have to wait until he leaves F1 to give that race a shot. Same with the 24 Hours of Spa, which runs opposite the Austrian Grand Prix next year. (He is able to do the N24 next year because it falls into the gap between the Miami and Canadian Grands Prix.)

Absolutely correct.

 

[CWallace]

Interesting video essay on current F1 qualifying.

 

[TheIntruder]

Having watched it, it felt similar to if Mo Salah turned up for a Sunday League game in Stoke On Trent. It demonstrated the gulf of difference in ability between drivers and it didn't surprise me at all that Max won.

As an American, football isn't on my radar, but it wasn't hard to understand the analogy being made.

True, but Alonso competed in those events for history and legacy reasons (to become only the second driver to complete the Triple Crown after Graham Hill). Verstappen competed in this event (and the upcoming N24) for his love of motor racing.

Max has already ruled out a run at the Triple Crown as he has no interest in competing in the Indy 500. And with LeMans and F1 now on the same date again (Canada this year and Spain next year), he likely will have to wait until he leaves F1 to give that race a shot. Same with the 24 Hours of Spa, which runs opposite the Austrian Grand Prix next year. (He is able to do the N24 next year because it falls into the gap between the Miami and Canadian Grands Prix.)

True, but that doesn't change the circumstances of what each undertook. One competed with peers of his caliber, in top-level domestic and international series. The other…didn't. NLS isn't even the highest level German, or regional, series that runs GT3 machinery. I believe that DTM is, and it runs on more than a single track, however great that track may be.

But if you wish to consider their motivations, as you note, Alonso wanted to add to his legacy with accomplishments only one other driver has achieved before, in a manner and in settings appropriate to that goal.

Verstappen, while no doubt happy with his experience, was living out a personal fantasy competing in real life on a circuit that he has probably done countless laps on his sim rig.

Not difficult to see the contrast.

 

[avro707]

Mario Andretti is another F1 driver to do other events like open wheel racing in the USA and Le Mans numerous times, one attempt with his son and Phillipe Alliot in 956-101 and then also with the Porsche factory in 1988 driving 962-008 (along with others from his family). If I remember right he was quite heavily involved in the single turbo Porsche 962 (chassis 962-001) for IMSA races in America.

Mario also gave the Porsche factory a heck of a lot of knowledge of American open wheel racing, which they unfortunately frittered away with poor car development choices and less than ideal management decisions.

 

[fmenard]

Let's see, here. Take Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Mario Andretti, Emerson Fitipaldi, Jacques Villeneuve and Juan Pablo Montoya. All six won Indy, and all but Montoya are former WDCs. Are Graham Hill and Mario the only two to ever compete at LeMans? I'm sure that if you dug deeper, there are more examples of drivers to complete this mythical triple crown. So you can forget Alonso being only the second.

 

[pachyderm]

Let's see, here. Take Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Mario Andretti, Emerson Fitipaldi, Jacques Villeneuve and Juan Pablo Montoya. All six won Indy, and all but Montoya are former WDCs. Are Graham Hill and Mario the only two to ever compete at LeMans? I'm sure that if you dug deeper, there are more examples of drivers to complete this mythical triple crown. So you can forget Alonso being only the second.

Mario won the DAYTONA 500 as well....

 

[CWallace]

Let's see, here. Take Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Mario Andretti, Emerson Fitipaldi, Jacques Villeneuve and Juan Pablo Montoya. All six won Indy, and all but Montoya are former WDCs. Are Graham Hill and Mario the only two to ever compete at LeMans? I'm sure that if you dug deeper, there are more examples of drivers to complete this mythical triple crown. So you can forget Alonso being only the second.

Mario Andretti never won the 24 Hours of Le Mans. He has won the 24 Hours of Daytona and the 12 Hours of Sebring, however.

Whether you use the traditional definition (F1 WDC, Indy 500 and LeMans 24) or the alternate definition (F1 Monaco, Indy 500 and LeMans 24), only Graham Hill has won all three events.

Jacques Villeneuve (WDC, Indy 500) and Juan-Pablo Montoya (Monaco and Indy 500) have two of the three so they just need the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

Alonso has two WDCs, two Monaco wins and two Le Mans wins.

 

[CWallace]

With Kimi (effectively) confirmed for 2026 and beyond and still no contract for George, reports indicate Russell wanted three years at $20+ million a year (parity with Norris) and Toto countered with one year and ~10 million. George is said to have accepted the single year, but he wants a performance clause where if he outperforms Kimi and Max or Charles LeClerc becomes available, George would keep his seat. Toto is said to have refused because he does not want to lose Antonelli.

George really has no options for 2026 unless he wants to roll the dice with Alpine, so Toto is holding the cards and can stall him out until George capitulates. But if the Mercedes PU is the class of the field and it powers George to a WDC, I expect George's demands will be significant.

 

[CWallace]

Christian Horner continues to be tied with possible equity purchases into the Alpine or Aston-Martin F1 teams, however his preference is to be more than just a Team Principal with equity (like Toto) and instead to have the full authority over all operations that he had at Red Bull under Dietrich Mateschitz.

The best option for this would be to launch a 12th team, though Stefano Domenicali seems to only want full-factory teams so Horner might still have to answer to an automotive group CEO and BoD.

 

[TheIntruder]

Mario Andretti is another F1 driver to do other events like open wheel racing in the USA and Le Mans numerous times, one attempt with his son and Phillipe Alliot in 956-101 and then also with the Porsche factory in 1988. If I remember right he was quite heavily involved in the single turbo Porsche 962 for IMSA races in America.

Mario also gave the Porsche factory a heck of a lot of knowledge of American open wheel racing, which they unfortunately frittered away with poor car development choices and less than ideal management decisions.

Mario was willing to hop in, drive and win in anything, which is a big part of his legend, and is among the undisputed greats of all time, but his time in sports car, and that period in particular wasn't a highlight of his career.

The legend of the 962, in IMSA's Camel GT days, rested first with Al Holbert, and his co-driver Derek Bell. They were the team to beat. Holbert was the first to lead Porsche Motorsport North America, and responsible for building an evolution of the 962 chassis entirely in the U.S. Alwin Springer built the engines in his ANDIAL shop in Southern California and is also a P-car legend.

Holbert was killed in a small plane crash, which put a premature end to that run, but even if that hadn't occurred, Nissan's ZX-T, built down the road in Vista by NPTI, powered by Electramotive's engines, and driven by Geoff Brabham, were rising to the challenge, and later Dan Gurney's AAR Eagle-Toyota Mk3, with Fangio at the helm, would come to dominate, in the latter stages of the 962's life.

The underbody concepts in the those Eagles later served as inspiration for the ill-fated Nissan GT-R LM NISMO, and have indirectly carried forth even to more recent times, with the original wingless incarnation of the Peugeot 9X8 in the WEC.

Those were heady times for IMSA, when both the prototype and sub-class fields were large enough to merit holding separate races. And who can forget Audi building a tube-frame silhouette 90 with AWD, and finding much success in GTO and Trans-Am.

It's no mistake that IMSA revived the GTP name for its current top class, to try to evoke that time.

Let's see, here. Take Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Mario Andretti, Emerson Fitipaldi, Jacques Villeneuve and Juan Pablo Montoya. All six won Indy, and all but Montoya are former WDCs. Are Graham Hill and Mario the only two to ever compete at LeMans? I'm sure that if you dug deeper, there are more examples of drivers to complete this mythical triple crown. So you can forget Alonso being only the second.

These trophies, though mythical, are not participation trophies.

Tennis players can complete "career" Grand Slams, but the highest honor is reserved for those who win all the major tournaments in a single season. Similarly, the original Triple Crown is bestowed to the horse than wins the Derby, Preakness, and Belmont in a single season.

It is difficult, in not practically impossible to win all the EGOT awards (Emmy, Grammy, Oscar, Tony) in a single season, so it is also a careeer achievement.

The operative word is win, not just compete, or be nominated.

Nick Tandy is the latest driver to achieve the endurance racing Triple Crown (Daytona, Sebring, Le Mans) this season. He can also claim a Petit Le Mans win, in a GT car no less, on his CV.

To date, Graham Hill is the only driver to achieve the racing Triple Crown (Indy 500, Le Mans, WDC/Monaco depending on your definition) by winning all three.

Alonso was the latest to make the attempt to become the second.

In any case, this is an F1 thread, so if anyone wishes to continue this discussion, they area free to create a more sports car racing, or more general racing topic.

 

[avro707]

Mario was willing to hop in, drive and win in anything, which is a big part of his legend, and is among the undisputed greats of all time, but his time in sports car, and that period in particular wasn't a highlight of his career.

The legend of the 962, in IMSA's Camel GT days, rested first with Al Holbert, and his co-driver Derek Bell. They were the team to beat. Holbert was the first to lead Porsche Motorsport North America, and responsible for building an evolution of the 962 chassis entirely in the U.S. Alwin Springer built the engines in his ANDIAL shop in Southern California and is also a P-car legend.

The first IMSA 962, chassis 962-001 was driven by Mario Andretti and his son, the others all followed. 001 didn't finish well, but it was very fast and showed the promise.

Mario made an excellent impression on the Porsche racing insiders in Weissach with his openness and the way he shared knowledge with them. They all sat together at dinner in a private room in a restaurant and Andretti explained everything, things to know, things to not worry about on certain tracks, etc. Stuff that even Holbert didn't tell them (or didn't know), although he was open that he was probably too old to take on developing another car.

I haven't met Andretti in person, but he seems like such a down to earth person as well.

 

[pachyderm]

I haven't met Andretti in person, but he seems like such a down to earth person as well.

I feel like Mario would be anyway...

 

[Glideslope]

Christian Horner continues to be tied with possible equity purchases into the Alpine or Aston-Martin F1 teams, however his preference is to be more than just a Team Principal with equity (like Toto) and instead to have the full authority over all operations that he had at Red Bull under Dietrich Mateschitz.

The best option for this would be to launch a 12th team, though Stefano Domenicali seems to only want full-factory teams so Horner might still have to answer to an automotive group CEO and BoD.

This AMR tidbits are intriguing. The scuttle but is Horner and Newey have patched things up and have been seen out and about together.

Adrian, Christian, Max, Honda and Lawerence has the potential to be lucrative.

Red Bull 2.0?