3G iPhone in Japan?

[mavis]

Can anyone point me to the place where it is written about bandwidth throtting? I searched the new iPhone-related pages on Softbank's site ( http://mb.softbank.jp/mb/iphone/ ), but either I am blind or the info is not there...

Oh, it's there - you just have to dig for it. Uncovering the truth about Softbank's pricing always takes a little bit (or sometimes, a lot) of effort ...

http://mb.softbank.jp/mb/iphone/price_plan/packet/index.html

Down at the bottom of that page, I think it's the last bullet point (right above the red bit about SMS not being included in the unlimited data) ...

Doesn't unlimited mean unlimited?

Unlimited data: yes. Unlimited speed: no.

You see, it's all about the wording. You have to admit, it takes some skill to be able to lie without actually lying - Softbank is quite good at this. Just when you think there's not a lot of room for them to wriggle about with these iPhone plans - I think they're used to having more flexibility and more vague policies to slither around behind - they manage to pull a stunt like this. Gotta love the telecommunications industry in Japan!! Home of the most convoluted pricing structures in the world!

 

[macdigger]

Oh, it's there - you just have to dig for it. Uncovering the truth about Softbank's pricing always takes a little bit (or sometimes, a lot) of effort ...

http://mb.softbank.jp/mb/iphone/price_plan/packet/index.html

Down at the bottom of that page, I think it's the last bullet point (right above the red bit about SMS not being included in the unlimited data) ...

Thanks for the info!
Indeed they'll be limiting transfer speed for web-sites which are involved in high-traffic tranfsers. So it's not YouTube or Google Maps specifically, but actually ANY site they consider as a high-traffic one.

Now, the question is - what is considered a high-traffic site?

And yeah, not having SMS (come on!! they are just bloody 50-byte messages in most cases!) covered by the unlimited plan is just way out of common sense. Bastards.. I have a family pack with my wife, and we have unlimited free SMS/MMS, but this is active ONLY if they are sent to each others' mobile phone address (and not to phone's email address). Now, if there are no MMS, and no free SMS - how am I supposed to use that supposedly free service huh?.. I guess I'll have a big discussion on the matter with Softbank staff next week..

 

[UltraNEO*]

Unbelievable!! What a bleedin' con!

Just as well I'd no plans to be changing my keitai for an iPhone.
Doesn't matter which way they try to cut it, it's still a RIPP OFF!
Way to go SoftBank!

 

[xenohawk]

Their limited "unlimited data plan" makes me wish emobile was the network provider instead . I don't call much, but I use Internet a lot and the iPhone UI is just right for mobile internet platform.

Btw, is there any mention of tethering support for iPhone 3G in Japan?

 

[sushi]

Gotta love the telecommunications industry in Japan!! Home of the most convoluted pricing structures in the world!

Probably could offer a graduate class in understanding their price structures.

I am not sure which is the worst, Softbank, AU or DoCoMo. All I know is that they all have confusing plans.

At least it is better than it was when cell phones were introduced in Japan. Back then we had to have the same provider as our friends if we wanted to call each other. In other words, a Softbank user could not call a DoCoMo user from cell phone to cell phone. Weird but true.

 

[mavis]

And yeah, not having SMS (come on!! they are just bloody 50-byte messages in most cases!) covered by the unlimited plan is just way out of common sense.

Actually, SMS is unlimited and free! That fine print was referring to international SMS.

I guess I'll have a big discussion on the matter with Softbank staff next week..

Yeah, good luck with that. Trying to reason with the staff is an exercise in futility as they are simply NOT allowed to think outside the box, and are not empowered to break/bend the rules for anyone under any circumstances. I've actually tried to reason with Softbank's customer service people on more than one occasion, but it invariably ends the same way: the customer service rep will always (i.e., 100% of the time!) hide behind the "it's just our company policy" line, despite the fact that they cannot explain (and possibly even comprehend, themselves) the reasoning behind said policy. I'd be more than happy to go into specific examples (I can think of SEVERAL!!!) but I hate to drag this thread through the mud again.

Needless to say, your best bet is to spare yourself the frustration - just bend over and grab your ankles like they want you to. Or just don't buy the iPhone! Complaining will do no good whatsoever, they cannot/will not listen to reason, and no matter how ridiculous or pointless a particular policy may be, the fact that it is company policy means it is written in stone. PERIOD.

 

[sushi]

Needless to say, your best bet is to spare yourself the frustration - just bend over and grab your ankles like they want you to.

Yep, smile and take it...and be happy about it!

Or just don't buy the iPhone!

That definitely is one option worth looking at.

Personally, depending on what I see after it is released, I will continue to use my current cell phone, Touch and carry my digital camera. Exactly what I do now. While I would very much like an iPhone, it is not the end all if I cannot get one.

Cost will be a major factor with me. Not sure if it is worth to me to pay $55 or more per month for the upgrade to the iPhone from my current cell phone. That's almost $700 per year which is not chump change.

Then again having GPS, Internet access, Maps, E-mail, etc. while on the go anywhere in Japan where Softmap has cell phone reception would be nice.

 

[mavis]

Cost will be a major factor with me. Not sure if it is worth to me to pay $55 or more per month for the upgrade to the iPhone from my current cell phone. That's almost $700 per year which is not chump change.

See, that's the thing - I'm already spending about $100 a month for my service, and I don't even have a decent phone. So, for me to get the iPhone, the only real out of pocket cost will be that ridiculous ETF - after that, my monthly costs will be about what they have been since 2003 or so. Although if I were looking at a $55 jump in monthly cost, I'd probably think twice about taking the plunge, too.

On second thought ... nah. I'd still do it.

Probably could offer a graduate class in understanding their price structures.

It would probably help out a lot!!! I mean, I understand the reasoning behind making the tariffs so unbelievably impossible to understand - it's good for their bottom line to leave loopholes open to be able to charge customers unexpectedly for every little thing. But you would just think that ONE of the major carriers would have realized by now that offering simple plans (like AT&T's, for example) would attract a lot of business. I guess they're all settled into that rut, and since customers aren't demanding clear and simple pricing structures, they don't have to deliver. So, they keep it complicated and expensive - because they can. Which is actually good business, I suppose.

 

[macdigger]

Actually, SMS is unlimited and free! That fine print was referring to international SMS.

Nope. It is not actually.
Have a look at the bottom of this page: http://mb.softbank.jp/mb/iphone/price_plan/packet/index.html
The stuff in red letters.

Sorry about Japanese but here is it, with the translation:

定額サービスのご利用にあたって
* SMS、国際SMS、通話、海外でのご利用はパケット定額フルの対象外となります。

Translation:
"About unlimited service
* SMS, International SMS, voice calls, and usage outside of Japan are not covered by unlimited data plan"

So yes, SMS are not free..

 

[mavis]

Nope. It is not actually.
Have a look at the bottom of this page: http://mb.softbank.jp/mb/iphone/price_plan/packet/index.html
The stuff in red letters.

Sorry about Japanese but here is it, with the translation:

定額サービスのご利用にあたって
* SMS、国際SMS、通話、海外でのご利用はパケット定額フルの対象外となります。

Translation:
"About unlimited service
* SMS, International SMS, voice calls, and usage outside of Japan are not covered by unlimited data plan"

So yes, SMS are not free..

This is actually pretty amusing. See, they say it's not free on that page, but on this page they say it IS free. I honestly don't think they've figured out quite yet how they're going to charge us. It's almost as though the deal with Apple came as a surprise and they had to scramble to put together pricing information at the last possible second, even though this stuff should've been sorted out weeks/months ago.

Leave it to Softbank to completely f**k up what will likely be their biggest product launch (and cash cow) ever.

 

[sushi]

See, that's the thing - I'm already spending about $100 a month for my service, and I don't even have a decent phone. So, for me to get the iPhone, the only real out of pocket cost will be that ridiculous ETF - after that, my monthly costs will be about what they have been since 2003 or so. Although if I were looking at a $55 jump in monthly cost, I'd probably think twice about taking the plunge, too.

I've been thinking about changing my plan as well to a cheaper one since I usually do not use my free minutes. I say usually, because 7-8 months out of the year I don't spend much time on my cell phone. But during ski season I do and usually rack up some extra charges. I need to do a cost analysis to see if it is better to keep my current plan, or get a cheaper one.

With Softbank, as I understand the White Plan, it costs 980 yen per month and you can make calls between Softbank cell phones for free between 0100 and 2100. However, to non-Softbank cell phones, each call will cost you 42 yen per minute. So a 10 minute call would cost you 420 yen. So for quick calls it looks okay, but for business type calls the costs could rack up very quickly. For example, an hour call would be 2,520 yen. Yikes!

With my DoCoMo plan I get 142 minutes included to any phone number. That would cost me 5,964 yen with Softbank.

So if I add it all up, Softbank's basic plan for me would cost about 13,000 yen per month. Instead of 55 bucks a month savings, it is more on the order of 90 per month savings. Plus if I go to a cheaper DoCoMo plan, we're talking almost 100 per month, or 1,200 per year.

Wow, now that I look at it, if my figures are correct, I don't think I will be going with the iPhone for now.

Please, if my figures are incorrect, let me know. As an engineer type, I can usually figure out things, but for some reason, cell phone plans still baffle me. And after living here for almost 20 years, I still think in F temps instead of C temps.

 

[mavis]

No, it looks like you've pretty much nailed it. If you use your phone to actually make phone calls, you pay through the nose. Unless you're calling Softbank subscribers (between 1am and 9pm) in which case the calls are free.

Personally, I plan to just email people more, instead of calling (since I hate talking on the phone anyway) ... Besides, my wife and most of my friends use Softbank - I probably make 20 minutes' worth of off-network calls per month. That's the trick - get everyone you know on Softbank and suddenly it's dirt cheap.

 

[sushi]

It's almost as though the deal with Apple came as a surprise

From what I understand, Apple was going with DoCoMo, but at the the last minute there was a pricing issue -- I believe the flat data plan -- that caused them to change to Softbank. If true, that would make sense why everything seems so last minute regarding information on the plans and features offered.

No, it looks like you've pretty much nailed it. If you use your phone to actually make phone calls, you pay through the nose. Unless you're calling Softbank subscribers (between 1am and 9pm) in which case the calls are free.

Roger. Thanks.

Personally, I plan to just email people more, instead of calling (since I hate talking on the phone anyway) ... Besides, my wife and most of my friends use Softbank - I probably make 20 minutes' worth of off-network calls per month. That's the trick - get everyone you know on Softbank and suddenly it's dirt cheap.

Well that is a way to help things. Get everyone to move to Softbank.

 

[Podgy]

Etf?

Went in and enquired about early termination fees.
Im already on Softbank with 9 months left on my current two year contract and phone. I went into the shop yesterday in Akiba and asked and all I have to do is pay the remainder(18,000 yen) and NO ETF. And I can pay the 9 months off in installments along side the new plan with the iPhone....

What say you Mave?

See, that's the thing - I'm already spending about $100 a month for my service, and I don't even have a decent phone. So, for me to get the iPhone, the only real out of pocket cost will be that ridiculous ETF - after that, my monthly costs will be about what they have been since 2003 or so. Although if I were looking at a $55 jump in monthly cost, I'd probably think twice about taking the plunge, too.

On second thought ... nah. I'd still do it.

It would probably help out a lot!!! I mean, I understand the reasoning behind making the tariffs so unbelievably impossible to understand - it's good for their bottom line to leave loopholes open to be able to charge customers unexpectedly for every little thing. But you would just think that ONE of the major carriers would have realized by now that offering simple plans (like AT&T's, for example) would attract a lot of business. I guess they're all settled into that rut, and since customers aren't demanding clear and simple pricing structures, they don't have to deliver. So, they keep it complicated and expensive - because they can. Which is actually good business, I suppose.

 

[macdigger]

Went in and enquired about early termination fees.
Im already on Softbank with 9 months left on my current two year contract and phone. I went into the shop yesterday in Akiba and asked and all I have to do is pay the remainder(18,000 yen) and NO ETF. And I can pay the 9 months off in installments along side the new plan with the iPhone....

What say you Mave?

Actually, I was told the same. I still have about a year on my current contract (about 35,000yen in due payments for the handset). I was told I can either pay the difference and cancel the current contract and have only iPhone's one, or just have both contracts running in parallel.
Now the question is whether I can move my old current number to iPhone via MNP...... forgot to ask about it..

 

[xenohawk]

What do you think the chances are to get a 16GB on launch day? without pre-ordering or anything?

 

[macdigger]

What do you think the chances are to get a 16GB on launch day? without pre-ordering or anything?

Given what I have wrote about stock availability of iPhones on the launch date (see this thread), it would be sort of a miracle if you manage to buy any model at all
Said, that, I personally going to call local Softbank shop on 10th evening and ask if they have any iPhones in stock (if they don't, chances are they won't get anything by 11th morning). IF they do have iPhones in stock, I'll ask if they have 16Gb ones, and IF they do have ones, I'm going to confirm there are STILL no pre-order/waiting lists, and IF there is no such things, I'll ask them if I'll queue on 11th morning and be the first in line, then I'll get an iPhone or not? (if the answer is "no" - it will mean shop staff will get iPhones for themselves)

IF everything's fine by that time, I'm going to wake up reeeeally early and park my car right in front of Softbank shop and wait for the shop to open. And once it opens, I'm going to get my 16Gb iPhone

Now, having a look at all the IFs, chances are pretty slim, but hopefully non-zero

 

[xenohawk]

Given what I have wrote about stock availability of iPhones on the launch date (see this thread), it would be sort of a miracle if you manage to buy any model at all
Said, that, I personally going to call local Softbank shop on 10th evening and ask if they have any iPhones in stock (if they don't, chances are they won't get anything by 11th morning). IF they do have iPhones in stock, I'll ask if they have 16Gb ones, and IF they do have ones, I'm going to confirm there are STILL no pre-order/waiting lists, and IF there is no such things, I'll ask them if I'll queue on 11th morning and be the first in line, then I'll get an iPhone or not? (if the answer is "no" - it will mean shop staff will get iPhones for themselves)

IF everything's fine by that time, I'm going to wake up reeeeally early and park my car right in front of Softbank shop and wait for the shop to open. And once it opens, I'm going to get my 16Gb iPhone

Now, having a look at all the IFs, chances are pretty slim, but hopefully non-zero

Hope so , I will be stalking this thread like a hawk until then.

 

[mavis]

Went in and enquired about early termination fees.
Im already on Softbank with 9 months left on my current two year contract and phone. I went into the shop yesterday in Akiba and asked and all I have to do is pay the remainder(18,000 yen) and NO ETF. And I can pay the 9 months off in installments along side the new plan with the iPhone....

What say you Mave?

I say good for you!

I just called Softbank again, and was told AGAIN that Softbank has no pricing information for existing customers. They simply DON'T KNOW how much they're going to charge us. I had seen online that we'd have to pay about $70 more (total) for the 16GB iPhone than new customers, but Softbank's staff have no information about that.

Regardless, I was told again that my ETF would be $430 (it's $30 lower than before because I've just hit another billing cycle) ... If I continue my existing service, I will only pay about $140 (over the next 14 months) for my phone, which is $30/month minus the $20 subsidy. If I cancel the service now, I will no longer get a monthly subsidy and will therefore pay the entire $30/month, totaling $430 over 14 months. I guess it's not TECHNICALLY an ETF, although for all intents and purposes that's what it is.

 

[mavis]

Went in and enquired about early termination fees.
Im already on Softbank with 9 months left on my current two year contract and phone. I went into the shop yesterday in Akiba and asked and all I have to do is pay the remainder(18,000 yen) and NO ETF. And I can pay the 9 months off in installments along side the new plan with the iPhone....

What say you Mave?

I just got off the phone with customer service yet AGAIN, after reading online that I would be required to present my passport when signing the new contract (so that the staff can check my visa status) ... This is a problem as my visa is going to expire soon and I won't renew it until next month ... Anyway, problem solved - I found a nice loophole and will exploit it on Friday!

Anyway, after spending another 45 minutes on the phone with customer service, I guess my response to your post would be this: believe whatever you like about Softbank's ETF, but don't be shocked when you get your bill in a month or two. If you cancel your service early, you WILL be penalized. And if you don't believe that, you can find out for yourself soon! Good luck!!

 

[macdigger]

Anyway, problem solved - I found a nice loophole and will exploit it on Friday!

What's that loophole again? I didn't quite get it...

 

[synaesthesia]

I just got off the phone with customer service yet AGAIN, after reading online that I would be required to present my passport when signing the new contract (so that the staff can check my visa status) ... This is a problem as my visa is going to expire soon and I won't renew it until next month ... Anyway, problem solved - I found a nice loophole and will exploit it on Friday!

Anyway, after spending another 45 minutes on the phone with customer service, I guess my response to your post would be this: believe whatever you like about Softbank's ETF, but don't be shocked when you get your bill in a month or two. If you cancel your service early, you WILL be penalized. And if you don't believe that, you can find out for yourself soon! Good luck!!

You seem very confused, so let me set the record straight for you.

1) Your ETF is 0 yen. What you claim is your ETF (43000 yen, going down by 30 a month) is actually the remaining Bunkatsubarai (monthly payments) on the cost of your previous phone.

2) When you sign a Super Bonus contract, you agree that you will pay the total cost of the phone over a 24 month period. The phone subsidy is also spread over this 24 month period. Purchasing a new phone eliminates the phone subsidy portion of the contact. You can then either 1) Pay off the phone and close the account or 2) Continue to pay for the phone without the subsidy.

3) Purchasing an iPhone on a new super bonus contact resets the clock on your contract. You will continue to pay the monthly payment for the previous phone PLUS the monthly payment for the iPhone. However, you will only receive the subsidy on the iPhone, as canceling your previous super bonus contact canceled your previous subsidy.

4) SMS has always been totally free on Softbank. It is covered by the White Plan, and not by the packet plan. If you enter into a plan other than the white plan (orange plan or blue plan) then your SMS will be charged. However, all White Plans have unlimited, free SMS.

 

[zentraedi]

So, what do we mean by "Softbank shops", are we talking about the actual separate stores or does that include the phone counters in other stores (electronics, supermarkets, etc.)??

 

[mavis]

You seem very confused, so let me set the record straight for you.

Thanks, but having worked in the industry for many years, I think I have a fairly good grasp of what is happening here.

1) Your ETF is 0 yen. What you claim is your ETF (43000 yen, going down by 30 a month) is actually the remaining Bunkatsubarai (monthly payments) on the cost of your previous phone.

2) When you sign a Super Bonus contract, you agree that you will pay the total cost of the phone over a 24 month period. The phone subsidy is also spread over this 24 month period. Purchasing a new phone eliminates the phone subsidy portion of the contact. You can then either 1) Pay off the phone and close the account or 2) Continue to pay for the phone without the subsidy.

I am well aware of how Softbank is handling subsidies now. It is not (as I acknowledged earlier) technically an ETF that we're having to pay, however the effect is EXACTLY the same. In fact, if you really want to split hairs, the phones are not subsidized at all. Softbank is very careful to refer to the monthly discount as a service discount, NOT a handset discount. This is in fact the whole point of the new system, as I understand it - Softbank no longer has to record losses on handset subsidies - they simply discount the monthly SERVICE instead. Again, the point is that for us as consumers, the effect is the same. I realize that there is not technically an ETF, but when we terminate service we pay the remaining handset charges without that "subsidy," which in my case results in 'an ETF-like fee' of $450. Call it what you want, the result is the same.

3) Purchasing an iPhone on a new super bonus contact resets the clock on your contract. You will continue to pay the monthly payment for the previous phone PLUS the monthly payment for the iPhone. However, you will only receive the subsidy on the iPhone, as canceling your previous super bonus contact canceled your previous subsidy.

Don't forget to mention that as an existing customer, that "subsidy" will be less than it is for new customers, unless you've actually completed your contract. Softbank still has no information on how big the difference will be for the iPhone (cutting it kind of close, you think?) but for other phones, they told me the difference is typically $5/month, or about $100 over the course of the two year contract. Why they choose to penalize existing customers is beyond me.

 

[mavis]

What's that loophole again? I didn't quite get it...

The "loophole," if you want to call it that, is that Softbank will accept other forms of identification which do not indicate visa status. For example, instead of a gaijin card + passport, we can use a national health insurance card + "printed matter" from any government office which shows our name and billing address. I will use these to bypass the passport requirement, since showing my passport with my soon-to-be-expired visa will necessitate an up-front payment for the iPhone (and I was quoted something around - over, actually - $800 for the 16GB) ... Of course, YMMV. And if you need to bypass the passport requirement for any reason, I'd suggest straightening the matter out with customer service beforehand so that there aren't any obstacles on Friday.