4 months of Snow Leopard, I've had enough

[TheAshMan]

Don't know that this is fair

I'm sorry op but I'm with the others. You can't slag apple off for this one. Your office is well out of date. Ms won't do nothing for you because they want your money. Same goes for your printer. They want to make you buy a new one so support for yours will be somewhat lacking.

"MS won't do nothing for your because they want your money?" Well, that is the same for any company, Apple just wants our money too. That is why they both do what they do which is the same as almost all of us. It would be dumb for Microsoft to throw resources to make a 7 year old product compatible with a new OS to address a very small minority. It makes no sense and they shouldn't be faulted for that. Same for the printer company.

 

[TheAshMan]

I want to take a moment to thank both of you partisans for going the extra mile to actually name yourselves SnowLeopard2008 and Winni and removing all doubts whatsoever regarding your agendas before even reading your posts. Winni goes so far as to basically sum up his mission statement in his tagline

If you're willing to go that far for your craft then I say it's fine to be a fanboy.

The ones that get under my skin are those that pretend to be free-minded independent thinkers.

As for "Winni", well Microsoft historically buys the other product. They are just as ruthless and concerned with their own business. "Professional?" That is a naive statement. For example, they badmouth the heck out of VMware at their conferences and every chance they get. Most unprofessional and petty behavior I have seen. Believe me, they don't need you to defend them.

 

[alleycat]

Faith is good for a lot of things. When dealing with companies though we need to look at track records, past performance and interactions with customers to hopefully guide us in a company's future performance.

Agreed. I've had great faith in Apple with their OS, and skepticism with MS on Windows. I think that's true for most people, otherwise we wouldn't be using Apple products.

I was a MS user from DOS 2.1 through Windows XP (well, Vista, but not by choice). During the day I am a Windows 2003 web developer using Visual Studio 2008 and Adobe Flex Builder/ActionScript.

My first Apple experience was with the IIe and it was not good. A word processor that ate HOURS of my wife's work. Probably a misplaced pointer reference but the work was gone. A floppy drive that blew a hole in a chip in the drive. My first professional association with Apple came with System 6 and System 7. Did a little bit with System 9 while diagnosing browsers isseus with IE 5.5 ( a Mac only bug in the JavaScript engine).

Apple, in the past, has produced some duds. The Lisa (possible SP error there) was a dud. I consider the IIc a dud. But we can count a lot more duds for MS: WinME (some say 98SE but I liked it well enough) and Vista are the 2 most visible. Trust me, both companies have enough duds in their closets to keep us busy for a LONG time.

But when my wife switched from Windows to OS X it was a life changing event, at least for her with her visual disabilities. MS does not even compare. Looking at how Apple generally treats their customers tells me I prefer to deal with Apple than Microsoft.

But your mileage may vary.

Take care,

I enjoyed reading your comments about your experiences. Apple does make duds from time to time, and to be honest every manufacturer does. There is no perfect computer or software.

Rosetta has nothing to do with Drivers. Drivers NEED to be matched to the architecture of the Computer (PPC/Intel) and the Kernel (PPC/X86/X64) of the OS it's running on.

One of the biggest criticisms of Vista wasn't Microsoft's fault. It was a lack of suitable drivers. That was entirely down to the hardware vendors. The same is true of Snow Leopard

Rosetta is a software emulation of some of the features of the PPC command set in OS X. It gives a limited emulation which allows SOME applications to work.

Please stop bleating on at Apple and go and kick off at Epson who should support their hardware properly. If they claim their drivers are 10.6 compatible then they should fully work with the version of CUPS supplied with 10.6, They should also be written for Intel Macs and run on both 32 bit and 64 bit kernels.

Nope, I still disagree. The Snow Leopard version of Rosetta reminds me of a MS hotfix…in reality a poorly designed patch to make SOME things work as you pointed out. The older versions of Rosetta actually did a pretty good job making PPC applications and drivers work under Tiger and Leopard. Why Snow Leopard's Rosetta just failed me bigtime is a mystery.

I want to take a moment to thank both of you partisans for going the extra mile to actually name yourselves SnowLeopard2008 and Winni and removing all doubts whatsoever regarding your agendas before even reading your posts. Winni goes so far as to basically sum up his mission statement in his tagline

If you're willing to go that far for your craft then I say it's fine to be a fanboy.

The ones that get under my skin are those that pretend to be free-minded independent thinkers.

LOL, but that's to be expected on computer forums. Thanks anyhoo.

There are two factors at work here. The first is compatibility with older software and hardware. The second is the ability to move forward with new OS and hardware technology. Snow Leopard is Apple's move toward the latter. Unfortunately when doing so, they are forced to lose some of the compatibility.

This is the problem that plagued MS with Vista. Vista was the same break with the old to support the new, and they blew it with the hardware compatibility. It took way too long for manufacturers to provide new drivers that worked with Vista, and in a lot of cases you just had to buy new hardware. And that's why so few people moved to Vista. However, with Windows 7 MS made a bigger effort to get support ready. And they didn't change the driver model from Vista, so Vista compatible hardware usually works. It has been long enough that people are starting to be more willing to replace their old hardware with Windows 7 compatible stuff.

This is what Apple is going through now, though not as poorly as MS did with Vista. Snow Leopard did not require much greater hardware than Leopard did, unlike Vista's requirements over XP. A 3 year old Mac can happily run Snow Leopard today. However, if you're using software that doesn't work well on Snow Leopard, you either have to upgrade it or stop using it and find something else. There is plenty of software that doesn't work on Vista/Windows 7 that did on XP. MS even has web pages that list such software, and recommendations of replacements or "stop using it" (like stop using Lotus Notes and use Exchange...).

So one choice is to upgrade your software and hardware to some that is compatible with Snow Leopard. If you wish to keep using Snow Leopard, that is the only choice. The other choice is to keep using the software and hardware that you have. It looks like you have to stay with Leopard to do that because that software and hardware fall on the "wrong side" of the clean break Apple has made. This is the same choice the majority of people made when it came to XP vs Vista.

So, until you are ready to upgrade your hardware and software for Snow Leopard, you do have a workable setup with Leopard. It is quite a stable and well running setup, too, so be happy with it.

All good points, and thanks for your observation.

My conclusion is that Snow Leopard just didn't work the way I wanted it too. However like beleagured Vista users, I'm falling back to the previous OS to keep myself working. As I re-calibrated my display with Eye-One today, I noticed a crisper display in contrast and the weird changes in blue were gone. There's something in Snow Leopard which makes blues go more towards the violet end of the color spectrum after calibration. Not exactly great for precision photo work. But wait, I guess I'm supposed to buy a new Eye-One calibrator to fix that problem? Sigh.

Last the one thing I can speculate on this whole deal of Snow Leopard vs. first generation Intels are the announcement of the Boot Camp Windows 7 drivers. The first generation of Intels are going to be left out in the cold, despite that there's 32 bit versions of Windows 7 which should run on 32-bit EFI. Personally this is where I see the straw man in Apple's way forward. They are beginning to abandon the support for 32-bit EFI whether it's in OS X or Windows. The software developers aren't going to have much choice but to follow Apple. Meanwhile there's support from Microsoft for 32-bit Windows for XP, Vista, and 7 for quite some time to come. There's a better chance that your older hardware will work longer on a PC. That could be more attractive to prospective computer customers. Apple's gamble to 64-bit everyone now could backfire, but I guess we'll see.

 

[Keleko]

I think Apple is taking the correct approach for moving to 64 bit. By making it happen, it will. MS, by not forcing it, is going to make it take much longer for 64 bit to become the standard. Right now there's no incentive for your average business or home laptop or desktop to use 64 bit. In fact it is probably better that it not use it just to keep within the best compatibility of hardware and software. As long as MS allows that to continue, there will never be a clean move to 64 bit.

By allowing 64 bit apps to run on a 32 bit kernel in Snow Leopard, Apple has made a much more clean transition to 64 bit. App developers can go all 64 bit for Snow Leopard-only apps and be assured that it will work for all users of SL and future OSX releases.

MS really needs to make a 64 bit only Windows release to break clean from the 32 bit world. Maybe Windows 8 will be that version. We won't know for about 2 more years, though, and I actually expect that they won't. Maybe they'll surprise us all and make that break.

 

[TonyK]

Because Tiger was first released as a PPC OS. Then the Intel based Macs arrived and Tiger had to get Rosetta. Leopard though relied on Rosetta and with "good" universal libraries, it probably did not matter. But remove all that PPC code and things can come cashing down for developers who relied too much on PPC code.

As stated before, I would be looking to 3rd party developers and manufacturers for having written cruddy code than to Apple. But that is just me, based on my technical background.

Not sure what is up with Eye-One. That would be strange. I need to connect my Spyder2Pro up and see if it works. If not, I know of a home for it and I'll upgrade to the Spyder3Pro. I was surprised when the Spyder2Pro worked with OS X because I had used it for a couple of years under Windows XP and did not realize the OS X software was downloaded from my license. That was a GOOD surprise.

Take care,

...
Nope, I still disagree. The Snow Leopard version of Rosetta reminds me of a MS hotfix…in reality a poorly designed patch to make SOME things work as you pointed out. The older versions of Rosetta actually did a pretty good job making PPC applications and drivers work under Tiger and Leopard. Why Snow Leopard's Rosetta just failed me bigtime is a mystery.
...

 

[SaSaSushi]

Not sure what is up with Eye-One. That would be strange. I need to connect my Spyder2Pro up and see if it works. If not, I know of a home for it and I'll upgrade to the Spyder3Pro. I was surprised when the Spyder2Pro worked with OS X because I had used it for a couple of years under Windows XP and did not realize the OS X software was downloaded from my license. That was a GOOD surprise.

Spyder2Pro definitely runs with no problems in Snow Leopard. I calibrated my iMac yesterday with it. There is a recent update which you can download from Datacolor's website.

 

[TonyK]

THANKS! Downloading update now.

Spyder2Pro definitely runs with no problems in Snow Leopard. I calibrated my iMac yesterday with it. There is a recent update which you can download from Datacolor's website.

 

[macrem]

I think Apple is taking the correct approach for moving to 64 bit. By making it happen, it will. MS, by not forcing it, is going to make it take much longer for 64 bit to become the standard. Right now there's no incentive for your average business or home laptop or desktop to use 64 bit. In fact it is probably better that it not use it just to keep within the best compatibility of hardware and software. As long as MS allows that to continue, there will never be a clean move to 64 bit.

By allowing 64 bit apps to run on a 32 bit kernel in Snow Leopard, Apple has made a much more clean transition to 64 bit. App developers can go all 64 bit for Snow Leopard-only apps and be assured that it will work for all users of SL and future OSX releases.

MS really needs to make a 64 bit only Windows release to break clean from the 32 bit world. Maybe Windows 8 will be that version. We won't know for about 2 more years, though, and I actually expect that they won't. Maybe they'll surprise us all and make that break.

I run in 64-bit kernel mode exclusively & support platforms that evolve focusing resources on new technologies rather than old programs & hardware.

As for Microsoft, isn't it their strategy to be backward compatible to the 1950s (or whenever they started)?

 

[Nighthawk4]

I upgraded from Leopard to Snow Leopard on a MacMini and an iMac. Touchwood, both are running fine so far - much faster than before. Both were clean installs with the Apps either reinstalled or copied across from the old installation (using SuperDuper! and external disks).

Whether they seem faster because SL is faster than L or just because of the spring cleaning which results from the clean installation I am not sure - maybe a little of each.

Hope I am not tempting fate by saying this

 

[Rayzrrr]

Word 2004 file passwords dont work on SL

Oh Great!!-After upgrading to Snow Leopard from Tiger I can't open my password protected Office 2004 Word files. It wont even give me a login password window. I tried opening info and opening permissions but no go. I even downloaded a back up file but still nothing. Any ideas?
Razrrr

 

[TheSpaz]

Oh Great!!-After upgrading to Snow Leopard from Tiger I can't open my password protected Office 2004 Word files. It wont even give me a login password window. I tried opening info and opening permissions but no go. I even downloaded a back up file but still nothing. Any ideas?
Razrrr

Try not using a 6 year old app.

 

[InfoSecmgr]

For what its worth, my mid 2007 iMac (2.4GHz Merom, Santa Rosa chipset) is noticeably faster running 10.6 than it was under 10.5. I have yet to experience a single kernel panic and CPU usage is more uniform across the two cores (instead of a single core at 50%+ and the other near idle as I saw quite often in 10.5). For having what most would consider "obsolete" hardware, it sure runs very nicely.

Having said that, 10.6 on my 1.66GHz Core Duo Mini was atrociously slow.

 

[QCassidy352]

no problems with SL whatsoever on my imac or my gf's mini. Sorry to hear people aren't happy with it, but my experience has been nothing but positive.

 

[TonyK]

My suggestion is to Google NeoOffice, download and install it. Once it has opened the file, save it again without a password. Then go to Office, open the file and re-password protect it. See if that fixes your issues.

Take care,

Oh Great!!-After upgrading to Snow Leopard from Tiger I can't open my password protected Office 2004 Word files. It wont even give me a login password window. I tried opening info and opening permissions but no go. I even downloaded a back up file but still nothing. Any ideas?
Razrrr

 

[ryannazaretian]

I'm probably going back to Leopard after I get back to school. Snow Leopard has been a total failure for me. Probably the worst and buggiest OS I've ever used.

Today the icons weren't showing up on the desktop, and it kept saying there was a disk in the CD drive, which there wasn't. When there was a CD in the drive, it wouldn't mount it. A lot of my favorite OSX programs still won't work properly (NTFS 3G, iAlertU, Insominiax, iMovie 09, Safari, Firefox, Finder, etc...) I'm also having trouble shutting down. Today it said that the computer couldn't shut down because Pages was not responding... I never opened Pages, and it wasn't open at the time.

Snow Leopard is total junk. I hate it, and it's turning me away from Apple and their "Just Works" attitude. I just doesn't work.

I've tried reinstalling and fixing disk permissions and the problems just keep coming back. I hardly use OSX anymore because I hate it so much. Windows 7 definitely has the edge right now.

 

[SSpiro]

I've had SL for 4 days. Downgrading tonight. Disappointed.

 

[celticpride678]

Overall, Snow Leopard has been a OK upgrade for me. My Mac is much faster and more stable compared to Leopard. However, SL still has its bugs, hopefully they will be fixed in 10.6.3. However, most bugs have a solution or are not "big" enough to make be downgrade.

 

[Matthew Yohe]

Today the icons weren't showing up on the desktop, and it kept saying there was a disk in the CD drive, which there wasn't. When there was a CD in the drive, it wouldn't mount it. A lot of my favorite OSX programs still won't work properly (NTFS 3G, iAlertU, Insominiax, iMovie 09, Safari, Firefox, Finder, etc...) I'm also having trouble shutting down. Today it said that the computer couldn't shut down because Pages was not responding... I never opened Pages, and it wasn't open at the time.

I see you never returned to your post about your NTFS3G problems.

iAlertU doesn't work? Sure about that?

And you updated Insomniax?

Now, to the OP alleycat:
If you've had so many issues, why have you not created posts about them? The Epson printer issue seems to be a big deal to you, yet you haven't created a single thread about your issues.

Your issues with the Eye-One calibration are also discussed here, but again, no thread in sight. Your constant complaints about some blue/violet shift under Snow Leopard? Hey! Snow Leopard changed the default gamma to 2.2!

You also could've called Apple for assistance with these issues. Also, it's complimentary! (when you call within 90 days, which for whatever reason you didn't do)

What you have done is create a thread to vent your issues, and then act like a petulant child when people here try to help you.

I'd recommend you post in the proper forums with your problems, and go from there. Or just install Windows or whatever and go away.

 

[ryannazaretian]

I see you never returned to your post about your NTFS3G problems.

iAlertU doesn't work? Sure about that?

And you updated Insomniax?

Now, to the OP alleycat:
If you've had so many issues, why have you not created posts about them? The Epson printer issue seems to be a big deal to you, yet you haven't created a single thread about your issues.

Your issues with the Eye-One calibration are also discussed here, but again, no thread in sight. Your constant complaints about some blue/violet shift under Snow Leopard? Hey! Snow Leopard changed the default gamma to 2.2!

You also could've called Apple for assistance with these issues. Also, it's complimentary! (when you call within 90 days, which for whatever reason you didn't do)

What you have done is create a thread to vent your issues, and then act like a petulant child when people here try to help you.

I'd recommend you post in the proper forums with your problems, and go from there. Or just install Windows or whatever and go away.

NTFS: I reinstalled SL, and it installs fine now, but it runs the CPU at 100% and it randomly doesn't mount.

iAlertU: Doesn't work with the camera

Insomniax: I have 1.3.4... so the 1.3.5 update will probably fix my problems with it.

Still doesn't explain all the regular OS bugs that I experience. I need a fast reliable computer for school, and right now, Snow Leopard doesn't provide.

 

[Mlobo01]

Issues...

I believe that the frustration here over SL is misdirected and its a distraction, one of the many things I have been posting in these forums and in the Apple forums is that we need to be more methodical in our upgrading procedures, if you say:"I need to revert back to Leopard" that to me is an indicator that you upgraded your macbook without testing it safely on an external drive first, 2)did not back up your items etc, Snow Leopard weeds out non-intel apps and uses Rosetta to translate them (not always fully functional by the way) 3)did not read the posts regarding other people's experience prior to upgrading, SL has been modified to weed-out improperly installed apps:meaning that if its not from a genuine source it will have issues, any bit-torrent apps or plain transfered apps from old OSs and non-intel versions will have issues, all apps in SL need to be installed from a proper disc. Duplicate fonts may cause issues or any fonts that are corrupt may cause performance issues, if you have transferred Preference files from Leopard:this causes mayor problems, staying with the same account gives issues etc, these are things that where discussed prior to SL going GM.
Other people have had successful installation/operations with SL and it may not necessarily be SL, it may be in how you have installed your apps or the source of your apps that is in question, also typical programs that worked in Leopard do not function in SL (so what gives?) this was announced prior to GM, was Leopard stable enough prior to upgrading? if yes then why the necessity to upgrade? if upgrading: are we doing it logically and methodically? NO? then we need to implement a better system and delineate the issues and avoid posts that draw in useless help: the bandwagon posting style is for amateurs, lets provide proper posts so we can help you without the antagonism of calling any OS a total failure, because it isn't we all know that. If SL did not work for you then installing Leopard should be a snap provided you backed up your items and have the proper installation discs. Im using SL on an external USB drive, its good, no performance lags etc, I have in my internal drive regular Leopard, I go between them both for diverse projects, also please avoid using Apple's own marketing phrases to prop-up your experience, this is an unsavory habit that only creates more friction between posters, I have been reading those types of posts for many years and the people who usually create them wind-up with no help at all, we are a good community here and by jabbing us with inexactitudes will prompt us to not assist you, lets be fair and realistic so that your post can be read without the anxiety, we know you are frustrated otherwise you would not be reading these posts so keep the coolness so we can make progress together.

 

[ryannazaretian]

I believe that the frustration here over SL is misdirected and its a distraction, one of the many things I have been posting in these forums and in the Apple forums is that we need to be more methodical in our upgrading procedures, if you say:"I need to revert back to Leopard" that to me is an indicator that you upgraded your macbook without testing it safely on an external drive first, 2)did not back up your items etc, Snow Leopard weeds out non-intel apps and uses Rosetta to translate them (not always fully functional by the way) 3)did not read the posts regarding other people's experience prior to upgrading, SL has been modified to weed-out improperly installed apps:meaning that if its not from a genuine source it will have issues, any bit-torrent apps or plain transfered apps from old OSs and non-intel versions will have issues, all apps in SL need to be installed from a proper disc. Duplicate fonts may cause issues or any fonts that are corrupt may cause performance issues, if you have transferred Preference files from Leopard:this causes mayor problems, staying with the same account gives issues etc, these are things that where discussed prior to SL going GM.
Other people have had successful installation/operations with SL and it may not necessarily be SL, it may be in how you have installed your apps or the source of your apps that is in question, also typical programs that worked in Leopard do not function in SL (so what gives?) this was announced prior to GM, was Leopard stable enough prior to upgrading? if yes then why the necessity to upgrade? if upgrading: are we doing it logically and methodically? NO? then we need to implement a better system and delineate the issues and avoid posts that draw in useless help: the bandwagon posting style is for amateurs, lets provide proper posts so we can help you without the antagonism of calling any OS a total failure, because it isn't we all know that. If SL did not work for you then installing Leopard should be a snap provided you backed up your items and have the proper installation discs. Im using SL on an external USB drive, its good, no performance lags etc, I have in my internal drive regular Leopard, I go between them both for diverse projects, also please avoid using Apple's own marketing phrases to prop-up your experience, this is an unsavory habit that only creates more friction between posters, I have been reading those types of posts for many years and the people who usually create them wind-up with no help at all, we are a good community here and by jabbing us with inexactitudes will prompt us to not assist you, lets be fair and realistic so that your post can be read without the anxiety, we know you are frustrated otherwise you would not be reading these posts so keep the coolness so we can make progress together.

I personally upgraded because of the supposed speed improvements. I mean, hey... $30 to really speed up a bunch of things, sounds like a deal to me.

I was an early adopter that got SL the day it came out. No problems were known at the point prior to official release.

I knew there would be some program incompatibilities, but iMovie 09? Really? It's crashtastic. It's almost guaranteed to crash. Not sure if it's iMovie 09, or Snow Leopard, but I never had trouble with iMovie 08 on Leopard. Garage Band is also likely to crash now. I don't have much 3rd party software installed. None that runs in the background now since I removed NTFS 3G. Don't get me started on Safari. It crashes all the time due to the horrible Adobe Flash plugin.

If you're directly responding to me, then let me say this. I'm not asking for help. I'm simply adding in the problems I've experienced with Snow Leopard so those looking at installing SL can see what problems they can potentially encounter. My biggest gripe is that Apple's own programs that I purchased are the ones that are suffering the most on Snow Leopard on my Late 2008 MacBook Pro.

 

[macuserx86]

For me, the SL 64 bit kernel was worth every penny. My Mac Pro is noticeably faster when running the 64-bit kernel. For the average user though, I'm not convinced that SL is an improvement... at all.

 

[TheSpaz]

For me, the SL 64 bit kernel was worth every penny. My Mac Pro is noticeably faster when running the 64-bit kernel. For the average user though, I'm not convinced that SL is an improvement... at all.

You're a liar. You won't notice a difference between the 64bit kernel and the 32bit kernel. All of your apps will still run the same regardless of the kernel.

 

[atyoung]

I registered just to post on this subject. The fact is, upgrading is never a good idea. Nothing short of wipe and clear with a clean full install is the proper way to go, for any operating system.

I have installed more operating systems on more computers for more years than I care to go into at this time, and nary is the time that I don't regret going with the cheap upgrade in the painful hopes of preserving some dumb preference or program install. It never fully works out the way you expect.

As for drivers, google is the number one driver source available at this point and time, if you insist on using deprecated hardware. If you must, then why complain about the latest and greatest not working for you operating system wise? You're not getting the latest and greatest hardware, why go there for your OS. If you need the latest thing and want old hardware support use linux.

I have SL installed on a Feb 08 MacBook. I have encountered 0 of the problems listed in this post. In fact many of the things listed as not working work just fine. If it works on my MacBook it surely should work on a MBP from later that year. I suspect the upgrade and attempt to hold on to old software installs, which are the end users fault. Upgrades are lazy, copy your files and reinstall you programs, its drag and drop for crying out loud.

All that said, I am mystified as to the dropping of arch support from the mainline. There is really no legitimate reason for this other than greed in a unix environment. BSD is more than capable of dealing with esoteric arch, so if any fault I have with the OS its the dropping of support for something thats easy to maintain support for. Let it run it might not run well, but in the end they wont feel left out and are more likely to up their hardware if they like the OS enough.

Those crazy OSX86 people will soon have SL running on toasters anyways.

My 2 cents.

 

[Mlobo01]

issues...

I hear you, my main advice to you and everyone is to be cautious in upgrading, save yourself much needless aggravation, I myself wish I could have a Mac Pro and do things 'quicker' now the key element in all this is "quicker" if you do not have a reference point then how do you know if what you are working on is already speedy? it hard to tell unless you have had an older machine or an older version of lets say:Final Cut, and a rendition would often take ten minutes instead of ten seconds in today's machine? I've been most aggravated in situations like these because like yourself Im trying to squeeze the last penny and the last processing juice of our machines (nothing wrong with that,everyone does it) but we need to recognize the limitations of what we have, those thirty dollars for an a teeny bit of extra speed turn out a lesson in software abstractions and headache no less, it will happen from here to eternity, I've seen it since Jaguar, I have read enough posts with similar expression time and time again, I don't want to make you feel inadequate, I would like to direct you to the proper expectation and resolve. Now since you have posted more symptoms I can help you check a couple of things: Check to see if you Ram modules are properly installed, it you have two modules take one out and restart your machine, try it with the other, it could be a bad ram module, try also a Ram Zap (option+command+o+f) hold these while restarting, let go until you hear a second chime, check, if I remember anything else Ill post it for you.