4K regression or...

Discussion in 'Apple TV and Home Theater' started by cynics, Apr 30, 2018.

  1. cynics macrumors G4

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2012
    #1
    Maybe I'm just missing something......

    So I bought Blade Runner 2049 since the original was one of my favorite movies. Another reason I bought it though was because it was in 4k as shown here....

    Screen Shot 2018-04-30 at 8.17.24 PM.png

    It is also listed under the 4K & HDR section of iTunes Movies on my AppleTV 4K.

    However when I select it in my purchased section OR even in the 4K & HDR section of iTunes Movies on the AppleTV 4K I see this.

    IMG_4106.jpg
    (Above pic is specifically from the 4K & HDR section of iTunes Movies on the AppleTV 4k)

    Just HD?

    Television does a fine job upscaling and colors look good however I would like to know I'm getting the best visual fidelity possible (and what I paid for) prior to watching it.

    Other movies in the 4K & HDR section show 4K and my other 4K purchases still show and play in 4K HDR.

    I tried a "restart" and verified the TV is set to 4K HDR (4.2.2 Chroma) and like I said other movies work. Is there something I'm doing wrong?

    If nothing else would someone mind wading through the iTunes Movies section to Blade Runner 2049 to see if your info shows 4K?

    Thanks in advance.
    --- Post Merged, Apr 30, 2018 ---
    Never mind, scratch that. I originally thought I purchased this movie through iTunes. After calling them they didn’t have a record of that. I may of bought via MA or something (still looking). But I have a feeling that maybe the case.

    I’m just now learning that non 4K purchases through MA only give you the HD copy. And looking further I can unfortunately see all my MA purchases that were originally 4K are not. Should have watched it sooner I guess.
     
  2. oneMadRssn macrumors 68040

    oneMadRssn

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    #2
    I normally wouldn't derail a thread like this, but seems that you figured it out so I don't feel as bad:

    I feel this situation (lack of clarity, conflicting icons, disperate digital stores) is really bad for the movie industry and is one of the primary things that drive people to piracy.

    Before digital, with discs and tapes, things were simpler. You buy a dvd, the dvd works in your dvd player, it works in your friend's dvd player, it works in your computer, it works in the vacation rental's dvd player, it works in your portable dvd player. It generally works anywhere that has a dvd player.

    Now imagine buying a dvd, and it works in your dvd player, but to work in your friend's dvd player you have to first hide all your friend's dvds, and it works in your computer but at a lower quality for some reason, and it doesn't work at all in the vacation rental's dvd player, and it works in your portable dvd player but only with an active internet connection. You generally don't know whether or not and how it will work.

    That is how digital movies are today. You buy a 4k version, but sometimes it's just HD, and sometimes it won't work at all, you can download it for offline viewing but only on some devices and only in lower qualities, and accessing it anywhere outside of your own devices is a pain in the butt.

    You're issue with BladeRunner is a perfect example. I would be pretty peeved.

    How anyone has the confidence to buy digital movies like this amazes me. I mean, renting a movie for a few bucks is one thing - but spending $20 to own something riddled with this many confusing inconsistencies and incompatibilities is crazy. Hollywood needs to get their act together.

    Sorry - rant over.
     
  3. BODYBUILDERPAUL macrumors 6502a

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    #3
    Come on man DVDs were damn horrible! Always sticking, skipping, cheap plastic cases! Wrong speed here in Europe!

    I don't see the problem. Buy it on iTunes and it's there. It gets updated to 4K when available. You can download it as many times as you want to (ONLY TWICE WITH AMAZON). Sync it to your iPhone/iPad. Watch it on your MacBook and then see it on a 4K Apple TV anywhere in the world by signing in on your Apple ID. I do this. I visit friends on a weekend and I sign into their ATV for us to watch one of my films :)

    You're complaining that sometimes it's HD or sometimes 4K. Well the DVD that you are praising is low definition of the 1990s :)

    Sorry, but I can't praise anything to do with DVD. Horrible horrible unreliable format from the 1990s.

    Plus, when on holiday WHY WHY WHY would you want to watch DVDs??? Surely holidays are all about escaping the norm??? Watch TV at home but on holiday????????

    Simple thing is, buy from iTunes and you are guaranteed decent quality with a 4K upgrade when it becomes available.
     
  4. HobeSoundDarryl, May 1, 2018
    Last edited: May 2, 2018

    HobeSoundDarryl macrumors 604

    HobeSoundDarryl

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    #4
    His point was consistency. When a person buys a disc, it is going to play pretty much anywhere, on ANY disc-playing device, at it's highest quality. In short, a disc buyer knows exactly what they are getting and have confidence it can be played on a wide variety of equipment from many manufacturers. Furthermore, a Studio can't arbitrarily decide to stop by your home and yank it out of a movie collection. Etc.

    "Only buy from iTunes" doesn't solve either issue. A digital version will "just work" on Apple stuff. Go to a friend's house and that friend will need to have some kind of Apple playback hardware or you aren't watching your (not owned, but leased) movie there unless you bring along your own connection hardware.

    If the studio decides to yank the movie from iTunes, tough luck unless you've downloaded a copy and stored it on something within your control. Never happens? Do a search and see countless tales of consumers whining about exactly that.

    Streaming is very convenient. It offers that great advantage over discs. In exchange, one doesn't "own" their digital collection (in the same way: they can't loan, can't sell, can't will, etc), quality is lower than quality of the same film via disc, sound is up to significantly weaker than disc, compatibility is thoroughly limited to the ecosystem from which one buys and stuff like OPs issue happens.

    Discs- especially in the robust used discs market- can be much less expensive than "buying" a digital version. Discs often offer the bonus of a digital download so you can own a master copy and get all the benefits of a digital version too. If not, you can make your own relatively easily (and then YOU get to choose the quality, instead of leaning on the choices of some corporation deciding for you).

    All the Apple worship in the world doesn't change the realities of the many limitations & tradeoffs of digital vs. physical copies. If one can live with the tradeoffs & limitations, great. Apple appreciates your relentless patronage & evangelizing. If you do that for free, Apple really appreciates how hard you work to crown the Apple way the best way in every possible thread about :apple:TV

    But if one is able to "think different" (meaning independently of what a corporation wants you to think) discs aren't married to any one company's hardware, and one can always download or make a digital copy from the disc to get every bit of the convenience factor of owning a digital copy dropped into iTunes too.

    My local library has about 2000 discs I can access for free. But they can't loan me even 1 digital movie. That's another great benefit of discs. With discs, many entities control the media and can loan it out for as little as free with no consequence. With digital, a single entity is caretaker of the entire collection, with complete control over that collection, NEVER accommodating any third party "owner" such as a library from loaning out their copy (too much money to be made by being a single caretaker with complete control over usage).

    Nevertheless, some of us have to HATE discs- presumably because Apple says we should- but consumers do NOT have access to better quality versions of films, often at lower prices, than via discs. You won't be married to any one ecosystem. You aren't "leasing" access vs. owning (a copy). Movies won't just disappear should the ecosystem owner and some Studio have a falling out. Discs don't eat any broadband bandwidth. Discs will play even if broadband is down. Etc.

    Does that mean discs are ALWAYS better? No, digital offers greater convenience. Sometimes digital versions are cheaper. Thus, there's certainly a place for them. But it's not the ONLY option. A consumer should think for themselves rather than tow the- ANY- company line... in spite of how hard any of us may work to try to convince total strangers that a single source is the one and only best source for all consumers, and that any other options (which could also be called CHOICES) are bad, bad, bad for all consumers. Caveat emptor!
     
  5. oneMadRssn macrumors 68040

    oneMadRssn

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    #5
    Unless the 4k version comes out as a special or new edition, then the original isn't updated. E.g., if only the "director's cut edition" gets 4k, then the original movie won't be updated.

    Except for 4k. 4k versions can't be downloaded ever. Also, the 4k version won't stream on anything except the ATV (no iphone/ipad).

    And you can't sign into your Apple ID anywhere in the world if the room you are in has Roku, Amazon Fire TV, AndroidTV, Samsung Tizen, LG WebOS, Chromecast, etc.

    You missed the point. I'm not saying DVDs are better - I'm saying the DVD-like distribution system was easier and more open, with fewer restrictions, caveats, and exceptions. Once you bought it, it was yours. The resolution didn't change, the watching terms didn't change, there was no logging in or internet requires to watch it.
     
  6. Rigby macrumors 601

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    San Jose, CA
    #6
    Don't feel bad. These titles were never actually upgraded to 4K in your library but simply displayed the wrong icons in the selection screens. When you played them and pulled down the info sheet, you could see they were actually only playing in HD. Apple has recently fixed this issue, that's why they are now (correctly) showing HD only.

    On a positive note, you still get HDR @ 1080p for movies that have HDR.
    That's not what happened here. What the OP discovered is that HD titles ported in via MA don't receive Apple's free 4K upgrades, that is all. Making this into an argument in favor of discs seems misplaced to me, since discs obviously never receive any free 4K upgrades in the first place.
    Did you buy the BD and were "pretty peeved" when it didn't magically turn into a UHD disc? ;)
     
  7. mario-64 macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    #7
    I too am having weird issues with my iTunes movie library. Certain movies when accessed within iTunes show HD HDR. How is that even possible? These movies are listed in the store as 4K. Does this mean I don’t own a 4K copy?
     
  8. oneMadRssn macrumors 68040

    oneMadRssn

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    #8
    It still happens. If you buy 4k movie on Apple TV, why does it only stream in 1080p on the iMac 5k screen? Same ecosystem, yet there are still crazy inconsistencies. I don't blame Apple - we all know this is the movie companies imposing this crap on all the digital stores.

    I'm not arguing in favor of discs. Not at all. I am arguing in favor of open consistent formats and full compatibility - something presently only available on discs. Once you buy a BR, the store or movie company can't take it away from you, they can't arbitrarily lower the quality, they can't set post-purchase rules about which devices can or can't play it. If it has a BR drive, it can play it at. Period. The same is not true of legal digital files. Incidentally, the same is true of illegal digital files.
    --- Post Merged, May 2, 2018 ---
    I would be pretty peeved if I bought a UHD BR disc and it magically turned into a regular BR disc.
     
  9. Rigby macrumors 601

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    #9
    I don't see what's crazy about this. Apple is very clear that movies can only be watched in 4K on the Apple TV 4K.
    Actually, UHD discs can only be played on dedicated UHD players and computers that have a 7th generation Intel CPU and Windows 10. Not what I would call "full compatibility".
    That again? They can't take away my downloaded iTunes movies either.
    And they can never upgrade it for free either like iTunes does.
    You cannot legally play a BD on a Mac with a BD drive. UHD BD is even more restricted (see above).
     
  10. jerwin macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    #10
    I spent the last two or three months in a hotel waiting for my condo to be repaired. The hotel wifi was inadequate for streaming. But I had a player and discs -- blurays of my own, dvds from the local library-- and so was able to entertain myself. The TV, unfortunately, was locked to some horrible video mode, ameliorated only by the fact that I had my harmony remote with me, and was able to tweak things...

    edge case, I know...
    --- Post Merged, May 2, 2018 ---
    as well as a specific motherboard chipset that may not be used by apple computer.
     
  11. cynics thread starter macrumors G4

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    Jan 8, 2012
    #11
    I think everyone makes a reasonable arguments. It was naive of me to think I could buy a movie for 1 dollar and get amount to encode and stream it to me in 4k.

    And in the end as a big fan of the original Blade Runner movie I thoroughly enjoyed Blade Runner 2049. It was good enough I didn't even notice the resolution not being true 4K. If the movie is entertaining enough the quality needs to be pretty bad for me to care.

    To me its kind of like video games on consoles. I have a PS4 Pro which has markedly better graphics than a Nintendo Switch, however at a friends house I probably had as much fun with the Switch in 2 hours as I have with my PS4 Pro in 2 months.

    This is weird though. I bought a digital version of Ghost in the Shell (the ScarJo version) for 1 dollar through Vudu or UV or MA or something (can't remember) and I still have access to the 4k HDR version in iTunes. Not complaining, but very inconsistent.
     
  12. Tech198, May 2, 2018
    Last edited: May 2, 2018

    Tech198 macrumors G5

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    Australia, Perth
    #12
    Lots of reasons: but mostly is also the same why videos on Youtube do not show up either on certain devices.

    Apple could easily control what quality they are delivering to which device.. They have the power to despite the settings only take you so far.

    After all, that's the source. And they know what device your streaming to , therefore they have the power to say what is eligible to be streamed/quality of it. (excluding device compatibility, bandwidth etc.)

    I bet that's what Apple are doing.
     
  13. priitv8 macrumors 68030

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    Estonia
    #13
    Don't forget that the studios and the agreement Apple has reached with content owners plays a big part in this.
    I wish we knew, what exactly has been agreed.
     
  14. cynics thread starter macrumors G4

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    #14
    Apple is bound by the studios.

    A digital 4K movie can only be streamed and not only does that require specific hardware for decoding (HEVC) the content but requires specific hardware for DRM (Intel SGX) when it comes to Mac/PC.

    There might be a couple non Mac/PC devices that can download and store 4K movies but I believe its all proprietary hardware using proprietary players and likely broken up into hundreds of proprietary files in a proprietary format. Much like movie services that allow downloading for offline viewing on the iPhone currently.

    Apple is likely just going to wait until the day that 4K is commonplace and movie studios allow downloading (once the DRM is thoroughly defeated). 4K is visually great but for the customer that is where the good news starts and ends. Its more expensive, it requires beefier hardware to decode it, file sizes are still very large, hardware DRM that requires significant investment to even meet minimum requirements for a satisfactory UX, and since most peoples experience with it is via streaming most people aren't overly impressed, in now when people ask me about my 4k TV's I'll show them some sample videos I've downloaded that are or at least near UHD disc quality.
     
  15. priitv8 macrumors 68030

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    #15
    It is not that drastic, however. If we speak about 4K playback in general. iTunes streaming is a special case.
    HEVC now is supported at system level on macOS, once you have a decrypted stream, you can enjoy it on your mac, pc or appleTV without much trouble, besides performance (in my experience aTV 4K does not like streams above 50Mbps using the stock player).
    But once decrypted, you can let HandBrake to re-compress it to lower bitrate and enjoy it.
    On UHD bluray disc it is stored as a single m2ts file. One can re-wrap it into single MKV or MP4 file.
    Apple's streaming ought to be HLS, meaning the pieces are still HEVC in .ts containers. But they indeed come DRM-ed and served over HTTPS, so not usable even if downloaded and stored.
    BTW ffmpeg handles HLS reassembly very well. Just not the de-DRM part of the game.

    The bottom line - there for sure is no technical explanation why we can not download 4K movies from iTunes. The reasons must be elsewhere.
     
  16. Rigby macrumors 601

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    #16
    Ghost in the Shell (2017) is a Paramount movie, so it's not eligible for MA. You must have redeemed it in iTunes.
     
  17. HobeSoundDarryl, May 3, 2018
    Last edited: May 3, 2018

    HobeSoundDarryl macrumors 604

    HobeSoundDarryl

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    #17
    Technical obstacles are not there. IMO, it's entirely about money.

    We used to be able to BUY a movie and do just about whatever we wanted with it because WE- the consumer- controlled our copy of the movie. We could loan it, sell it, give it away, invite 50 friends over to watch it, take it to someone else's home and 50 friends could watch it there, etc. If we donated our copy to the local library, potentially 1000 strangers could watch "our" movie for free.

    Now, we can still (sort of) "Buy" it (paying about as much to do so) but then we don't actually control it. We can't loan our "purchased" movie to anyone. We can't sell our "purchased" movie to anyone. We can't give our copy away. We can still invite 50 friends over but it's not as easy to go play it at someone else's home unless they have Apple playback equipment or we remember to bring our own. We can't even be as sure our virtual copy of the movie in the cloud will be there long-term (Studio might yank it, a Studio & Apple could have a falling out, etc). Try donating a digital copy to the local library. Etc.

    The change here of still paying for a purchase but not controlling that purchase is- I think 100%- about money. It's absolutely business genius to get people to pay about as much to "buy" something while retaining pretty much full control of that product AFTER those people had a decades-long history of being able to buy the same kind of thing and also gain full control of it. Imagine that with a car or house purchase: "pay us full price to buy this car/house but we'll never actually give you the deed... and you won't be able to sell it to someone else, rent it to anyone, will it to heirs or give it away because we actually keep control of it. And yes, at any time- without any notice- we may change the locks too.";)

    Allowing a corporation to control access to "our" copy allows lots of limitations the "old-fashioned way" did not have. And, in general, those very limitations seem to revolve around maximizing revenue for the caretaker and the supplier. Furthermore, as configured, the caretaker can blame the Studios for just about any consumer hassle and vice versa. Because we consumers readily give up control of our purchase, we can only be frustrated in such scenarios, maybe whine about it somewhere online, but then have to hope that a white knight at one or the other decides to help us regain access to a film we purchased.

    OP thought he was paying for access to a 4K version, but this "the future" system delivered only HD. Whether that was tagging issues, bugs, or just for-profit shenanigans doesn't really give OP many options. In the antiquated system, OP would know with great certainty what he was getting, and there were no for-profit middlemen controlling the use of that purchase. But clearly, this new way is far better in every way. :rolleyes:
     
  18. priitv8 macrumors 68030

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    #18
    Luckily enough, that still holds true if you go out and get your favorite movie on the UHD Bluray disk.
    Part of this scheming might come from the fact, that Apple negotiated the studios to offer their 4K content on iTunes for the price of HD Bluray.
     
  19. HobeSoundDarryl, May 3, 2018
    Last edited: May 3, 2018

    HobeSoundDarryl macrumors 604

    HobeSoundDarryl

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    #19
    And thus, I (personally and apparently foolishly per some) still choose to buy the discs, then download the digital version that typically comes free with them OR make my own. The "cheap plastic cases" plus the disc(s) can go into the attic as a very tangible, last resort backup I can ALWAYS access if necessary (and no studio will be able to sneak into my home and take away "their" movies without breaking the law).

    If I make a digital copy, I get to choose the video quality and then get every bit of the convenience of buying & downloading from the iTunes store WITHOUT burning a byte of broadband, nor relying on a digital copy still being there, nor dealing with any freezes if broadband is variable, nor waiting if broadband is down, etc.

    Especially for movies that have been out for a while, I can BUY (not rent) discs for as little as a few dollars (the used disc market is robust and surprisingly cheap, yet digital files on those discs don't degrade from new).

    Discs have long come with higher quality versions of audio than DD. I'm not having to wait on "just one software upgrade" or for a company to finally decide to embrace stuff like ATMOS and other audio codecs superior to DD.

    From my perspective, the one real LOSS in this approach is that a disc collection is not as readily upgraded to a higher resolution for as little as free every 10 or so years when we finally get around to the next level of resolution and maybe sound. However, there are offers for doing this with discs (trading in discs for higher resolution discs for a nominal fee). That's not as easy as an Apple offering existing movies purchased in HD will be available in 4K, so that's a tangible, great benefit I don't have as readily with discs.

    Nutshell: on this topic, if I'm buying, I'd much rather buy the disc and do the above. If I'm renting, iTunes offers a very conveniently accessed and LARGE library... as does VUDU, etc. This business of "collecting" movies locked to and controlled by any single source may work for some but- IMO- the tradeoffs seems great compared to actually owning something. Of course, every consumer should- and can- choose for themselves. When I read stories like OPs though, I think consumers don't fully realize what is lost in "the future" approach.
     
  20. BODYBUILDERPAUL macrumors 6502a

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    #20
    Dude, I think that you are taking owning a film a little bit too seriously. It's only a film! Each to their own, for me when I get a chance, I'll buy or rent from iTunes and enjoy it and maybe watch it on my iPhone on a journey too or on my MacBook BUT i'll be totally honest with you - when i'm having great experiences in life with friends or enjoying my life and career or road cycling, having fun at the gym, cooking food with friends, attending college for my MSc, the thought of a film does not even enter my mind. And that's all it is at the end of the day - a little film - it's not a major significance in a person's life. Is it?
     
  21. Rigby macrumors 601

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    #21
    What prevents you from watching an iTunes movie with your 50 friends? And there are things you can do with digital movies that aren't possible with discs (e.g. family sharing, watching the movie at multiple locations at the same time, easily putting it on mobile devices for traveling, quality upgrades and new extras being added after the purchase).
    From what I understand OP actually bought an HD digital code for one dollar (!).
     
  22. HobeSoundDarryl, May 3, 2018
    Last edited: May 4, 2018

    HobeSoundDarryl macrumors 604

    HobeSoundDarryl

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    #22
    And yet you burn lots of time in nearly every :apple:TV thread evangelizing it as the one and only best way for all. For someone that doesn't really care that much and prefers to live life away from it all, etc. you sure give a lot of time trying to convince everyone else that iTunes & :apple:TV is the only one and only best way to go for everyone.

    FYI: I love my :apple:TVs too. And I even love the idea of transitioning from discs to digital. I feel no burning love for physical discs- just the other benefits that still come with them. What I don't love about "the new way" is the pile of tradeoffs- those I mentioned above and iTunes files (and VUDU, etc) not quite matching up with the "bag of hurt" in picture or sound quality. If I'm renting a one-time viewing, no big deal (to me). If I'm buying though, I don't like the many compromises that comes with (not actually) owning a collection, etc. But as you say, to each his own. I'm glad you find this so ideal for your purposes.

    --- Post Merged, May 3, 2018 ---
    Nothing. And I wrote that in my post.

    Unless it's at their place and then I need to be sure they have Apple playback hardware or I need to be sure to bring my own.

    I can do every one of those with discs- and do. Digital downloads free with many discs bring ALL of the iTunes benefits too. If there is not a download, I can make my own from the disc and I get to choose the quality. Macs are quite capable of making a copy, rendered for iTunes at quality well above the typical streaming file squeezed down for those with slow broadband connections (but served that compressed for all). iTunes will readily store files with much more detail. :apple:TV has no trouble playing much better quality files.

    What difference does the price make? OP thought he was buying a 4K version of the file. That's the issue. What he paid for it should only matter to the seller, not a fellow consumer. In other words, if he had got a 4K version for only $1, good for him. I get most of my discs for <$5 (used). That doesn't make their video any less legit or deserving of playing at a lower quality (than I thought I was buying).
     
  23. Snoopy4 macrumors 6502a

    Snoopy4

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    #23
    Heat has the same issue. Bought the 4K version and it’s just HD. Pisses me off.
     
  24. Cell-666 macrumors 6502a

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    #24
    My Blade Runner 2049 is still in Dolby Vision
     
  25. priitv8 macrumors 68030

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    #25
    So is mine.
    IMG_3493.jpg
    IMG_3495.jpg
     

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