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trrosen said:
This is absoluly not true. DMCA makes it Illegal to sell the technology to do it. but First sale doctrine gives you the right to do what ever you want with your copy of whatever you buy. Creating a legal catch-22. Its legal to make a copy for personal use but Illegal to create a way to do it.

also recording off air, DSS or even pay per view and copying to hard drive for your viewing are 100% legal... its sharing them that violates copyrights

Very true, I should have worded my post differently. When I said, "you cannot make a copy of a purchased DVD and put that copy on your Mac's Hard Drive" I was meaning the whole act of doing that, ultimately resulting in making a copy on your HD, not just that it was "illegal to make a copy of a purchased DVD" on its own.

You can make a back-up copy of a legally purchased DVD, however it is illegal to transfer that copy to your HD or iPod, for instance. As you say, a catch-22 of sorts. All I was trying to point out was that many people assume that since they know they can make one legal back-up of their DVDs, that they can then do whatever they want with it - not true.

Thanks for catching that, glad to clarify. 😎
 
One problem - already compressed

shompa said:
I want to be able to bring my ripped DVDs to my friends in my Ipod. Ripped in Apple looseless codec and be able to connect my Ipod to the TV. The ultimate portable machine

One problem here - the 8GB to 9GB on a video DVD is already compressed with a rather lossy codec.

A "lossless" recompression would not save much (if any) space for the video (although some DVDs seem to have uncompressed linear PCM soundtracks).

You could save space by reducing the frame size to 352x240 and re-encoding in DivX or some other MPEG-4 variant - but that would definitely reduce the quality (to "VHS-quality" at best).
 
jared_kipe said:
Ok, so I can see 20 and 40GB, maybe even 60 once you get some photos. But who in their right mind has 80GB of music and photos?? What would the play time be like, my 13GB would play for almost 7 days, and thats with my CDs ripped at 256Kpbs. So 80GB would be like a moth and a half or something.
And 640K will be enough memory for everybody....

Right now, I own over 500 CDs (bought over the past 15 years.) They're all ripped at 128K AAC and the tracks consume over 35G. Had I ripped the tracks at 256K, they would easily fill an 80G drive. With Apple Lossless, they would consume nearly 200G.

And my collection is growing. I still buy CDs - typically about 10-20 (about 1-2G) per year.

Maybe you will never be able to fill an 80G drive. Not all customers are like you.
 
~Shard~ said:
I technically have over 200 GB of music, compressed, but would never want it all on an iPod - and yes, 80 GB of music on an iPod would be too much as well, I get by just fine with my 20 Gigger, thanks! 😎
You and I obviously have different expectations. I would want my entire collection on the iPod. I like being able to shuffle-play everything I own (which is what I do when I'm working on the Mac.)

I don't want to have to decide, in advance, what songs I will or will not want to hear when I'm traveling. I don't want to be 500 miles from home and realize "Rats! I didn't transfer the song I want to hear!". It's far simpler to have a device that can hold it all.
 
my thing with the color screen is, the iPod as a music player should primarily be about listening to music. browsing your music really only requires text and and a good way to get around in it, which the iPod has already mastered. the color screen is superfluous. really, the thing would just be in my pocket playing most of the time. i can see why a color screen would work on a PDA, because those things are meant to be looked at. the iPod is meant to be listened to.
 
I don't have a problem with a color screen per se. I think it's pretty nifty. But given a limited budget (and who doesn't have a limited budget?) I'd rather spend that extra $100 on a larger hard drive than a color screen.

I've got no problem with the existance of the iPod Photo. But I would also like to see a non-Photo iPod with a 60G drive selling at the $500 price point.

I would love to see the sales numbers after introducing such a model. Right now, it's impossible to say how many 60G owners want the color+photo capabilities and how many are buying it simply because it's the only way to get a 60G drive in an iPod.
 
I think an 80GB iPod is perfectly feasible and perfectly sellable. I would want one if I didn't have certain constraints preventing me from getting one/using it fully. I have a lot of music (granted not all legal, but I always tell myself that once I get a job that actually pays money I will go out and buy it for real), but it takes up slightly less than 10GB. I put most of my music on my computer several years ago before I had good speakers, good ears, or lots of hard drive space. I had my Sawtooth's HD maxed out for about a year waiting to get a G5. Now that I have a 160GB I want to fill it up with music. Unfortunately all those CD's I encoded with VBR at ~135 kbps I have lost and can't reencode. So I am stuck with lots of crappy quality music.

I've loved my 15GB for the past year and a half and still love it now, but unfortunately it's HD is not cooperating anymore after a stupid fit of clumsiness involving it being dropped. Now I am stuck trying to decide whether I want to buy a replacement hard drive, ask for a 4G for Christmas, or ask for whatever may or may not come out at MWSF for my birthday (January).

Now personally I would never spend $100 for a color screen and photo capabilities. I guess I can understand other people wanting those abilities, but I LOVE the iPod for what it was created to do, play music! Large capacity music only iPods would definitely sell but I can understand how it may not be the best profit plan for apple. I think they should keep the music only iPods and 'gadget' iPods separate. An iPod that has a color screen, can display photos, and out put photos AND movies to a TV with a simple high quality video out would be freaking awesome. But it shouldn't kick out an equally awesome really high capacity music only iPod.

I could easily see my dad needing said music iPod. He is a 50+ year old stereophile who is technologically active and so he has LOTS of very good high quality music that could probably fill an 80GB iPod. The only thing keeping him from filling his 20GB right now is a lack of time to encode all the CD's and technical difficulties of encoding records.

One last thing. Does anyone happen to know a way to fix an iPod that only shows a exclamation mark folder icon? Everything else works fine when tested through the hidden debug mode, but when I try to actually use it, it only gives the dreaded exclamation mark folder icon. I've been running the debug HDD scan for the past half hour with no response yet. I would really like to be able to fix it other than going out and buying a new hard drive or iPod although I am willing to replace the HD myself. I think I'm going to go put it in the freezer for half an hour now (apparently this may help according to MacAddict... 😕 🙄 )

Justin
 
Well I am a satisfied purchaser of the 60GB. I haven't got around to putting photos on it yet, though I expect I will eventually.

The important things were -

60GB instead of 40GB
15 hour battery instead of 12
Color screen

For me the color screen enhances the music capabilities in two ways -

Use of a proportional spaced font allows for longer lines of text on screen; in particular album titles are not so often truncated. (OK, they could add this to a b/w screen too). Also, I think you get an extra line on the vertical.

Album art is a useful visual reminder of the source of a song.
 
shamino said:
You and I obviously have different expectations. I would want my entire collection on the iPod. I like being able to shuffle-play everything I own (which is what I do when I'm working on the Mac.)

I don't want to have to decide, in advance, what songs I will or will not want to hear when I'm traveling. I don't want to be 500 miles from home and realize "Rats! I didn't transfer the song I want to hear!". It's far simpler to have a device that can hold it all.

I can appreciate that. In my case however, I record the BBC Radio One Essential Mixes every week, which is a 2-hour live broadcast (sometimes longer!) showcasing the best DJ talent in the world. I record each broadcast and have every single show since 1993, with the exception of about 6. So, at ~170-180 MB per 2-hour show x 52 weeks in a year x 11 years, add on all the extended shows and special shows, you're looking at about 120 GB right there. This doesn't include my weekly Digweed KISS FM sets, nor my actual music collection, which is over 100 GB on it's own between MP3s and audio CDs.

So in my case, I don't need all my music with me, because with my Essential Mixes, although I do like listening to many of my favorites on a regular basis, I am for the most part collecting them and do not require every single one on my iPod - after all, with almost 600 shows, equalling probably 1500+ hours of music, that would take me a while to listen through! 😉 I am mostly concerned with having my actual music collection on my iPod, and even then, as I said, 20 GB is good enough for me - I don't need everything, just my favorites (which adds up to a lot of music as it is!) 😎
 
What I would like to see in the 5G iPod.

Right now, to me it seems Apple isn't taking its competition seriously enough. One of the major reasons, imho, that the iPod started off so well was the fact that it had more features and worked better than anything else out there. But now the competitors are catching up, and Apple doesn't seem too bothered about it. Sure the iPod has brand recognition, but is it enough to deter people from buying something else that has more features? Will it last?

As I type this there are three competitive products that are starting to get attention. First one being Rio's Carbon 5GB player, Creative's new Zen, and the iRiver. And I can see why people are starting to consider other options.

I hope Apple will wise up a little to realize there are people out there interested in watching video on the go. I hope the 5G iPods at least have OGG, and FLAC support. As well as a better battery, the recent upgrade in battery life was nice, but its still getting trounced. I'd also like to see a band equalizer available to users, or possibly a removeable, rechargeable and swappable batter, now that would be great. Also possibly a FM tuner and a little bit more promoting of iPod's other functions. When you ask anyone about the iPod the first thing they'll think of is music. A lot of people don't know the iPod is also a removeable harddrive, a contact holder, a calendar, a video game player (not Doom 3 or anything but Solitaire and stuff), and a note holder.

Also a media card reader would be awesome for iPod Photo.

My only other complaint is, I don't have an iPod. 🙁

:: wanders back to Apple Store to bother employees and play with iPods ::
 
zwilliams07 said:
Current Status: Dreaming of having a dual 2.5GHz G5.

Current status: Have a dual 3.6GHz with 8GiB, Dreaming of a 160X CD reader so that I could keep the CPUs busy while ripping....
 
zwilliams07 said:
Right now, to me it seems Apple isn't taking its competition seriously enough. One of the major reasons, imho, that the iPod started off so well was the fact that it had more features and worked better than anything else out there. But now the competitors are catching up, and Apple doesn't seem too bothered about it. Sure the iPod has brand recognition, but is it enough to deter people from buying something else that has more features? Will it last?
If you're just comparing features, Apple has never had a clear advantage of anybody else. When they started out, they played MP3s, just like all the rest. They added AAC support with the introduction of iTMS, when others added WMA support. Their prices have never been particularly low - they charge about the same as the rest for a similar-size hard-drive player.

IMO, the iPod's success is almost entirely due to the user interface. The integration with iTunes and the click-wheel device.

Look at discussions that take place here and elsewhere whenever someone compares a third-party player to an iPod. The third-party supporters all say things like "it supports {insert favorite file-format}" and the iPod supporters say "everybody else's UI sucks".

Unless someone violates Apple's patent and releases their own click-wheel device, with seamless integration to a well-written desktop-based media player, I don't think the iPod is going to be displaced.
zwilliams07 said:
As I type this there are three competitive products that are starting to get attention. First one being Rio's Carbon 5GB player, Creative's new Zen, and the iRiver. And I can see why people are starting to consider other options.
Same argument as before. These companies are always releasing new models. And every time one comes out, a flock of people say "Apple is doomed if they don't do what I say". And when the dust settles, the third-party player falls by the wayside and the iPod market share is even larger.
zwilliams07 said:
I hope Apple will wise up a little to realize there are people out there interested in watching video on the go.
Who? Besides you? Apple sees the same numbers as everybody else. There are several portable video players on the market. Nobody is buying them.

If you want to go posting a wish-list of new features, go for it. But I think you're being silly if you think that they are stupid if they decide to not give you what you're wishing for.

Every new feature has a cost - development costs, manufacturing costs and support costs. If the feature doesn't serve to increase sales enough to cover those costs, then implementing the feature is a bad idea.

You may want to watch feature films on a 2" screen. Most people don't want to - which is why nobody has been successful selling portable video players. And porting the QuickTime stack (including all of its media protocols) to the iPod's architecture is not going to be a free or cheap proposition.

Ditto for alternative file formats. OGG and FLAC might be great and wonderful, but what's the advantage over AAC and Apple Lossless? There are a lot of drawbacks (including development/support costs), but very few benefits, because the formats are not and have never been very popular. The fact that you personally want them doesn't mean much unless there are thousands of others that agree with you.
 
shamino said:
If you're just comparing features, Apple has never had a clear advantage of anybody else. When they started out, they played MP3s, just like all the rest. They added AAC support with the introduction of iTMS, when others added WMA support. Their prices have never been particularly low - they charge about the same as the rest for a similar-size hard-drive player.

So iTunes connectivity, removable harddrive, iSync capabilities, the now defunct iPod Home features were not an advantage? Mind pointing me to other players that did this all at about the same time as the iPod did?

shamino said:
IMO, the iPod's success is almost entirely due to the user interface. The integration with iTunes and the click-wheel device.

Sure it made a large impact, but to say almost all is rather out there. Apple had two things going for it when it was the first generation. Three if you count the Mac crowd. First would be brand recognition, Apple is known all over as been stylish, well crafted, and cool. The second was the competition was bungling itself. The third was the Mac users, it was a great way to get the word out, I remember the first time people saw them. They thought they were awesome compared to the competition.

Look at discussions that take place here and elsewhere whenever someone compares a third-party player to an iPod. The third-party supporters all say things like "it supports {insert favorite file-format}" and the iPod supporters say "everybody else's UI sucks".

shamino said:
Unless someone violates Apple's patent and releases their own click-wheel device, with seamless integration to a well-written desktop-based media player, I don't think the iPod is going to be displaced.
Same argument as before. These companies are always releasing new models. And every time one comes out, a flock of people say "Apple is doomed if they don't do what I say". And when the dust settles, the third-party player falls by the wayside and the iPod market share is even larger.
Who? Besides you? Apple sees the same numbers as everybody else. There are several portable video players on the market. Nobody is buying them.

A bit arrogant to act as if you can see into the definite future. Microsoft and other people haven't just been sitting there watching Apple. In case you haven't noticed, the latest batch of portable players have been making bigger strides to catch up and improve. And, again, its rather arrogant to say they'll fall like the rest and not even consider them competition.

As to the no one is buying the video players, thats not very accurate as well. Have you tried to go out and buy one of thos e "VideoNow"s or an iRiver lately? They are harder to come by. Recently during Thanksgiving, while I was on the plane a lot of people had video players and were watching those things over the inflight movie. The GBA video players are also seeming to grow in popularity as well.

Have you walked around and asked people which they'd prefer to view while on the go or away from home? Ask them which they'd prefer, photos or movies.

shamino said:
If you want to go posting a wish-list of new features, go for it. But I think you're being silly if you think that they are stupid if they decide to not give you what you're wishing for.

I wouldn't call them stupid, I'd call them a bit foolish for ignoring the competitons advances.

shamino said:
Every new feature has a cost - development costs, manufacturing costs and support costs. If the feature doesn't serve to increase sales enough to cover those costs, then implementing the feature is a bad idea.

Thats totally agreeable. But a lot of it would make the iPod more appealing. Nowadays, people want more things in less devices. Case in point, SmartPhones. SmartPhones have taken a huge chunk out of the PDA business. If someone lists a products functions; one player plays music and photos. The other player plays music (more formats), video, photos, plays FM radio, and etc. Which sounds better to the average consumer?

shamino said:
You may want to watch feature films on a 2" screen. Most people don't want to - which is why nobody has been successful selling portable video players. And porting the QuickTime stack (including all of its media protocols) to the iPod's architecture is not going to be a free or cheap proposition.

So is there much difference in looking at photos in 2" and watching video? Apple seems to think so. But then again the dock could be utilized and have the video played through the TV. Personally I find that would be cool to take movies with me and not have to hook it up to a computer. I doubt Apple would have much trouble supporting MPEG-4 as a format.

shamino said:
Ditto for alternative file formats. OGG and FLAC might be great and wonderful, but what's the advantage over AAC and Apple Lossless? There are a lot of drawbacks (including development/support costs), but very few benefits, because the formats are not and have never been very popular. The fact that you personally want them doesn't mean much unless there are thousands of others that agree with you.

People like options, people like things that are free and unrestricted. OGG and FLAC are growing in popularity because they are free, easy to implement, open, and have a lot of support. If you don't think so, I think you should see some of the discussions on Slashdot.org over the iPod. I don't know where you came up with the idea that they are not popular or ever going to be. I see plenty of benefits of increased reason to buy iPods outside of ease of use and coolness factor.
 
zwilliams07 said:
A bit arrogant to act as if you can see into the definite future.
No. I can see into the past. Third parties aren't doing anything new. They are rehashing the same designs that have repeatedly failed. Marketing departments saying "lets paint it blue this time" aren't going to make people buy a failure.
zwilliams07 said:
So is there much difference in looking at photos in 2" and watching video?
I don't think photos in an iPod is a good idea either. And recent reports show that the public agrees. At a time when non-photo iPods can't be made fast enough to keep up with demand, there are plenty of photo units to go around.
zwilliams07 said:
People like options, people like things that are free and unrestricted. OGG and FLAC are growing in popularity because they are free, easy to implement, open, and have a lot of support. If you don't think so, I think you should see some of the discussions on Slashdot.org over the iPod. I don't know where you came up with the idea that they are not popular or ever going to be. I see plenty of benefits of increased reason to buy iPods outside of ease of use and coolness factor.
Ask someone who is not a SlashDot reader what OGG and FLAC even are and you'll be met with blank stares.

Software written by geeks for themselves is not the definition of a standard you're going to spend millions of dollar on R&D for. You don't increase sales by offering features that your customer base hasn't even heard of.

The fact that a manufacturer doesn't have to pay a license for the software means nothing to people who don't spend their lives glued to the internet.
 
shamino said:
No. I can see into the past. Third parties aren't doing anything new. They are rehashing the same designs that have repeatedly failed. Marketing departments saying "lets paint it blue this time" aren't going to make people buy a failure.

Well then you need to get your eyesight checked. Other companies are doing things different outside of appearance. Otherwise they wouldn't have FM transmitters, removeable battery packs, and unrestricted media formats.

shamino said:
I don't think photos in an iPod is a good idea either. And recent reports show that the public agrees. At a time when non-photo iPods can't be made fast enough to keep up with demand, there are plenty of photo units to go around.

Well my point still stands; Apple thought it was a brilliant idea.

shamino said:
Ask someone who is not a SlashDot reader what OGG and FLAC even are and you'll be met with blank stares.

Ask any audiophile, any DJ, any power user, anyone who works in the music indrustry, anyone who uses Linux or Unix, or programs and you won't be met with a blank stare. Even magazines such as MaximumPC are pushing OGG and FLAC as great alternatives.

shamino said:
Software written by geeks for themselves is not the definition of a standard you're going to spend millions of dollar on R&D for. You don't increase sales by offering features that your customer base hasn't even heard of.

Well by that logic, W3C is a joke, anything that started up from geeks is a joke. That would mean Apple itself, and Microsoft would be jokes. I seriously doubt Apple would have to spend millions of dollars on a freely available, open source project. You can already play OGG and FLAC with iTunes with an easy tweak. As to the unheard of features, go back a few years ago and ask anyone if they knew what AAC was. Only reason people know it know is its being pushed by Apple.

MP3 is synonymous with music nowadays. Wanna take a guess how that started? Thats right by a group of geeks. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3 ]

shamino said:
The fact that a manufacturer doesn't have to pay a license for the software means nothing to people who don't spend their lives glued to the internet.

Thats a lame attack. Again, ask anyone in the music industry or who loves music and they will know what OGG and FLAC are.
 
zwilliams07 said:
Ask any audiophile, any DJ, any power user, anyone who works in the music indrustry, anyone who uses Linux or Unix, or programs and you won't be met with a blank stare. Even magazines such as MaximumPC are pushing OGG and FLAC as great alternatives.

Still a tiny, tiny proportion of iPod buyers. Not worth the money. "Audiophiles" think all portable players are rubbish. Most iPod buyers are content or want:
1) Cheaper
2) More memory
3) Smaller case
4) Better battery
(in no particular order)
 
wordmunger said:
If they can make an 80 gig 1.8 incher, how much capacity will we be seeing in a laptop hard drive?


Seagate already makes 0.5TB laptop drives how much more do u need.
 
Benj said:
Still a tiny, tiny proportion of iPod buyers. Not worth the money. "Audiophiles" think all portable players are rubbish. Most iPod buyers are content or want:
1) Cheaper
2) More memory
3) Smaller case
4) Better battery
(in no particular order)


AAMOF, every audiophile knows that changing MP3s to OGG is a bad choice, but the option of having them is certainly good. Thats why my next player is going to be either an Archos or an iRiver (which i prefer) because of the widely open source OS and support - also with a range of great features, accessories and BATTERY LIFE! Try to pull 3 hours of photo surfing on a 60gb iPod photo!
 
Kreamy said:
Seagate already makes 0.5TB laptop drives how much more do u need.

Yeah right. We're talking about laptop drives not huge ones... The biggest laptop drive is a 100GB atm.
 
zwilliams07 said:
Again, ask anyone in the music industry or who loves music and they will know what OGG and FLAC are.

Rubbish.

All of my friends, family & colleagues love music. Not one of them knows -- or more importantly -- cares what OGG & FLAC are...

Look beyond the geek-horizon.
 
I have a mini now, and am waiting for the 80 gig to get a new iPod.

It's not really the size of the drive--although that is a piece of it since I have a ton of music--but rather these new drives are reportedly smaller.

I want an iPod to carry around all of my music and pictures, but without all of the bulk.

Will I buy a new mini at the next rev? I'll probably wait until the 10 gig too. The next rev is tempting because the mini will finally have a decent battery life, but I can live with my current model for a year.

All very practical and boring, I know. Time will tell if I can stick to the plan. Apple has a way of separating me from my money against my will. 🙂
 
Blue Velvet said:
Rubbish.

All of my friends, family & colleagues love music. Not one of them knows -- or more importantly -- cares what OGG & FLAC are...

Look beyond the geek-horizon.

You just have to visit Slashdot to hear all the whining about lack of FLAC or OGG support. Yet, 99% of the population have no idea what it is. Even I don't know what it is fully, and I'm quite the techno-nerd.
 
This sounds amazing, i could really see this affecting the price of the other ones. i still think the mini is way overpriced!!! 😱
 
~Shard~ said:
I know, I know, just having some fun... 😉

Honestly though, when you think about it, there would be far less legal content out there to put on an iPod video than the normal iPods (purchased CDs, iTMS downloads, etc.) or the iPod photo (all personal digital photos). Movies from iMovie? Sure, I guess. But otherwise, it's illegal to download movies, TV shows, etc. from the Internet, and the other thing lots of people are not aware of is that the Digital Millennium Copyright Act states that you cannot make a copy of a purchased DVD and put that copy on your Mac's Hard Drive - as a result, even legally purchased DVDs could not be copied in this manner.

Things need to change before the iPod video comes out. But when they do, I know Apple will be leading the charge. 😎

Well.. I don't think that Apple "really" cares about if something is legal or not.. And they should not, thats not their business.. Their business is making good profit and making shareholders and stakeholders as happy as possible..

Back to topic, I will not buy an iPod with color screen until it runs my illegal divxes.. I dont want to carry my "home-made" iMovie files, I want to watch the last divx films I downloaded when I travel long distance..
 
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