8800GT - Response from Steve Jobs

[eRondeau]

Its not a secret Apple uses the videocard handicap to get people to buy new Macs. They have done it for decades.

Please forgive my iMac-owning ignorance, but exactly what is so unbearably awful and terrible about the video card that came with your Mac Pro? Does it not display colour? Are you limited to 320 x 200 pixels? Is it completely incapable of playing back a Quicktime video? Or is it just that now, a year later, there's something new and better on the market? For exactly how many years did Apple guarantee your purchase would remain state-of-the-art, anyway?

If you bought a 2007 Civic, would you demand that Honda make the 2008, 2009, and 2010 engines, radios, and wiring harnesses drop right into it? Of course not -- demanding that everything remain backwards-compatible would handicap new technology. So maybe it's not Apple that's handicapping their video cards -- maybe it's the owners of yesterday's technology who collectively freak-out and demand backwards compatibility the moment something better comes along.

 

[THX1139]

My question is, what's the difference between running the 8800GT in an older mac vs. an early 2008? My understanding is that pre-2008 MacPro's use PCI 1.0 and the newer machines use PCI 2.0 - does that mean IF they come-up with a solution for older Macs, will the cards run slower compared to the new machines?

If that's the case, then people who need every bit of power from their card would be better off selling their machines (at a loss) and upgrade to currently shipping machines.

Is the 8800GT that much better than the X1900 that it's worth paying $350-$400?

 

[GFLPraxis]

Yeah. I agree with you there. There's a definitive honesty in that reply.

Actually, it makes it much more likely that it IS Steve. A PR rep or assistant would sugar coat a reply. The fact that it's a bit short means he probably took the time to reply himself.

 

[scotto07]

Apple internally still uses Tiger

In mid-December, I peaked behind the genius bar in an Apple store and as I suspected they were running tiger too ^^

Apple still use Tiger on computers that need to use internal corporate software, the software that we use dose not fully work with leopard, it is reportedly buggy, but they are fixing all of them. If you look at any BOH computer (Register, Genius Bar, Inventory) at a retail store they will all be running Tiger.

 

[AlexisV]

Let me be very clear. There is utter disgust, disappointment and
contempt being expressed by the Mac Pro community for Apple right now.
Go into the Support>Discussions area on the Apple website and you
will see that the community is up-in-arms about the way we have been
treated. You have a serious revolt on your hands.

Too much and worded too strongly.

 

[puffmarvin]

It's because of whiney, rude and arrogant elitist jerks like you that I left a manager position in Apple Retail. Have some class. Have some tact. Grow up and out of your spoiled child syndrome.

 

[niemo810]

I'm not trying to get a "flame war" started here, but this is to the people who don't think that the message sounds like Steve, and are criticizing his English.

Get over it, please. I often wonder if Steve himself reads forums like these, and if he does, he probably shakes his head at these comments. He's human, just like the rest of us. Eventually people get frustrated and get snippy. He is not God, he is Steve Jobs. He is a very successful CEO, but that doesn't mean he has his personal e-mail approved by a team of editors.

Also... Why are people analyzing 1950's English? And what does it matter when he was born? Seriously, it's like people worship him. Again, he's just a human being, just like everyone else on this forum.

In addition, Apple as a company is not invincible to mistakes. For some reason many Macintosh users seem to believe that their computers are invincible, and nothing can ever be wrong with it. Virtually any consumer electronics company has had it's share of blunders, and I can almost guarantee that none of these problems were fixed overnight. Give Apple some time, seriously. Nobody can be perfect.

I've tried so long to resist calling people "Apple fanboys," but seriously. This stuff has got to stop. People are analyzing every detail just a liiiiittle too deeply for comfort. It's just getting creepy.

P.S. I already know what's going to happen. Somebody is going to analyze every word I typed in this post, and point out why I'm wrong. The argument will start out by somebody trying to correct me, but ultimately the flame war will exclude my post altogether. Eventually, two or three users will be duking it out and the original argument will be forgotten. Save the carpel tunnel for something more important.

 

[Eric Piercey]

the new mac pro's are too young to argue if the video card will become available for the older models. Personally, my idea is that it will happen. Apple has the skills, the manufacturer needs sales figures or some nerd will write some code to hack eveything together ...

We all know what will happen. Apple will release an upgraded card to the 8800 that's compatible with the previous Mac Pro's and everyone with the current 8800 in their "Early 2008" Mac Pros will be flipping out because they have to now buy an upgrade. Cynical, me?

PS "worked" is widely used in the technical field in reference to open issues. Ticket's are worked. Machines etc. are worked on.

 

[pprior]

And that's why they released the 1900 for the G5s, and are releasing the 8800 for the older mac pros?

What the heck are you talking about - the ONLY thing we've seen from apple is canceled orders and statements that the updated cards are NOT compatible with older macs.

If Nvidia saves us, that's certainly no credit to Apple.

 

[Eric Piercey]

It's also as much as several months pay.

If no one is prepared to raise a fuss, heck even get hysterical, s**t won't get done. Not to say hysterics are necessary, but it is a valid complaint.

Oh it's definitely a valid complaint. I'm quite surprised they released it as such. Furthermore, one of Apple's weaknesses is their lack of information on upcoming products and fixes. Customers need to plan their budgets and a seemingly innocent practice like ninja product and update releases can cost sometimes 5 figures or more to organizations. But it's about more than that, it's about reliability. We shouldn't expect actual dates from Apple on anything, but it would certainly be nice get more acknowledgment than has historically been the case.

 

[KindredMAC]

Let me remind you
that we are your best customers. We spend many thousands of dollars
on our Mac Pro workstations, and yet we feel like your company cares
more about someone who spends a couple of hundred bucks on an iPod.

Mac Pro owners are the hardcore of your customer base -your power
users. We are the ones who have supported your company through the
leaner times, when the OS wasn't quite what it should have been, or
sales weren't so good. We use your machines in a professional
capacity and we make large orders for expensive equipment and
software.

I have to say that I sometimes feel this way too.... sometimes too much actually.
When I have gone into Apple Stores to buy my laptops or PowerMacs in the last few years, I have felt like I wasn't as important as the teeny boppers standing in line to purchase a $149 nano. Where is the common sense here?

I'm finding that the store workers are becoming more and more iPod fans rather than Mac fans.

It's a situation that should really be dealt with.

 

[Freis968]

Snowshiro, I don't think your email to Steve was rude at all. I totally agree with it. A state of the art company like Apple should be in tune with its best customers as you point out and should receive the respect we deserve in terms of upgradablitliy.

 

[JSchwage]

It's really funny to read this thread and all of the people who say that Steve Jobs would not respond like that when, in fact, I could definitely see him responding with that type of tone. Everyone thinks Steve is the nicest guy on the planet when, in reality, he's not.

 

[Kar98]

What a baby. Why do some Mac Pro users have such an elitist attitude?

Maybe they have this silly idea that spending between $3,000 and $20,000 might entitle them to a decent product?

 

[supremedesigner]

I really doubt Steve will write email like that. This guy just wanted to make a pointless thread and if he want to, he best be providing email snapshot and by all means NO PHOTOSHOP. This is no way Steve will write email like this. Does Dell dude ever write to customers? I really doubt that either.

 

[yesthisisapc]

What the heck are you talking about - the ONLY thing we've seen from apple is canceled orders and statements that the updated cards are NOT compatible with older macs.

If Nvidia saves us, that's certainly no credit to Apple.

From engadget:

Update: Nvidia's Director of PR emailed us to let us know that the company is "in the middle of bringing out an upgrade kit based on the NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT solution for all Intel-based Mac Pros." What's more, this upgrade kit "should be out in a few weeks." So there you have it, folks. We'll see if they deliver as promised.

nvidia makes these as OEMs for Apple, not as retail products.

 

[rufwork]

Just know this: I'm a graphic designer. I don't have the knowledge to fake an email header of the complexity of the one I posted earlier. Especially in such a short space of time.

Yeah, me neither. In fact, I emailed Steve about whether his email to you was real, and his reply was...

"Dude, of course it's me, BEEEE-auch."

No idea why he misspelled beach.

Anyhow, here are the headers, in case you're wondering.

Delivered-To: withheld2@gmail.com
Received: by 10.115.108.3 with SMTP id l3iec8ow93wdc;
Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:12:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.168.250.14 with SMTP id l9sor903v7ey34.131.9827363519824;
Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:14:12 -0800 (PST)
Return-Path: <sjobs@apple.com>
Received: from mail-out4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.254.13.23])
by mx.google.com with ESMTP id b6mr1588273ybe.133.1200758300650;

I truncated them, but I think you get the joke. Even a graphic designer can cut and paste. Would explain the Tigerness as well.

That said, there's nothing about the reply that doesn't sound legit. If it wasn't for the X-Mailer or whatever, I'd've been tempted to believe the OP.

 

[timb]

Yeah, me neither. In fact, I emailed Steve about whether his email to you was real, and his reply was...

"Dude, of course it's me, BEEEE-auch."

No idea why he misspelled beach.

Anyhow, here are the headers, in case you're wondering.



I truncated them, but I think you get the joke. Even a graphic designer can cut and paste. Would explain the Tigerness as well.

That said, there's nothing about the reply that doesn't sound legit. If it wasn't for the X-Mailer or whatever, I'd've been tempted to believe the OP.

In fairness, I was wrong. Leopard Mail does use that version for the X-Mailer, try it yourself and see.

 

[Frazzle]

The tech behind it?

Why would the new cards not work in the old machine?

From the PCIe spec, I gather that there's just a signalling difference between the 1.0 and 2.0 standards. On booting, the hardware should simply negotiate the highest standard that both motherboard and gfx device have in common. That's the way it worked with AGP (besides voltage issues).

Second, I can buy a new MP with four of the new gfx cards. However, the new MP also has PCIe 1.0 slots. So, if that configuration is to work, the new cards can and do support PCIe 1.0. Simple.

The PSU's in both machines are more than adequate, so power is not the problem either.

So is it just a software or EFI issue? Is it an issue with the older Mac Pro? What gives?

 

[LOZER]

Please forgive my iMac-owning ignorance, but exactly what is so unbearably awful and terrible about the video card that came with your Mac Pro? Does it not display colour? Are you limited to 320 x 200 pixels? Is it completely incapable of playing back a Quicktime video? Or is it just that now, a year later, there's something new and better on the market? For exactly how many years did Apple guarantee your purchase would remain state-of-the-art, anyway?

If you bought a 2007 Civic, would you demand that Honda make the 2008, 2009, and 2010 engines, radios, and wiring harnesses drop right into it? Of course not -- demanding that everything remain backwards-compatible would handicap new technology. So maybe it's not Apple that's handicapping their video cards -- maybe it's the owners of yesterday's technology who collectively freak-out and demand backwards compatibility the moment something better comes along.

I understand what you are making a point of, but its not that the Mac Pro users are whinny. Sure, you'll get some people that will, just for your points of not having the newest and best tech. If it wasn't backward compatible I wouldn't make a fuss personally, but it's not new tech that I can't possibly use in my computer. So, why shouldn't I be able to use it in my current system? Apparently now its not a problem since Nvidia just released a PR statement saying that they will make 8800 GT's for old Mac Pro's. http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/18/geforce-8800-gt-upgrade-causes-headaches-for-some-mac-pro-users/

 

[AppleMojo]

It's pretty lame that this is being entertained...

Head on over to the 1 of thousands of celebrity rumor and whacko fan sites who claim Paris Hilton replied to their email.

... they have text 'headers' too.

Steve.

 

[big dainjerus]

Yeah, me neither. In fact, I emailed Steve about whether his email to you was real, and his reply was...

"Dude, of course it's me, BEEEE-auch."

No idea why he misspelled beach.

thats hilarious

 

[notamacuser]

werd

If that is Job's response that is about inline with the response you would get from a CEO. A one liner that is straight to the point. It wasn't rude but addressed the issue in the shortest response possible. As a CEO it would be common to send a one line response due to the amount of emails one would receive. I could see how someone would think it was rude and see how from someone who has to deal with a large amount of emails that is would be appropriate and IMO not rude at all but directly addresses the issue.

 

[Snowshiro]

I think it's time to wind this thread up.

It's been fascinating to see it evolve, and even more interesting to see how many people have jumped in late to the debate, after pretty much everything has been discussed and resolved. It makes you realize how a lot of folks simply read the first few posts of a thread and then hit the 'reply' key, endlessly repeating the same points over and over until the thread just becomes a circular collection of the same unoriginal observations.

Frankly I don't care any more whether people believe the original email was from Jobs or not. We've been over all of this several times, and comments about faking email headers, writing style etc. might have been relevant about a week ago when we first discussed them. Believe what you want. If you want to show off your amazing deductive reasoning skills in proving (to your own smug self-satisfaction) that it's a fake, knock yourself out. There are only 2 people in the world who know for sure. For the record, I mailed him again later about the Nate Doss miscommunication, and have yet to hear anything back.

Furthermore, despite a number of people objecting, as the recipient I'm not offended by the response he sent, and having worked with senior board level executives before, his reply mirrors exactly the kind of thing I'd expect from a major company CEO.

My main gripe is with Apple's collectively poor communication skills over this whole affair. Regardless of the final outcome, we were treated poorly as customers, fed misinformation from company representatives, and eventually had to rely on the PR department of a related third-party supplier to get the information that Apple as the hardware vendor should have been much quicker to get out. I will certainly be treating Apple's information or lack thereof more warily in the future.

 

[Maldini]

Dugg