8GB RAM in M3 MacBook Pro Proves the Bottleneck in Real-World Tests

[DaveEcc]

How do you know that 8GB isn’t plenty for most people? Especially when you’ve never tried one? It clearly seems to sell pretty well, so I think it’s a rather big stretch to argue it isn’t plenty for most people.

Not who you're replying to, but my daughter has a base M1 Air (8/256), and the RAM is totally a problem. Sure, she leaves open far too many tabs in Chrome, but a lot of people live online these days... so I'm sure she's not alone.

I won't argue that 8GB isn't useful for some, but I'd bet the majority of people who get 8GB regret it. It really doesn't take much before you start hitting swap. I don't care what the base spec is, as long as it can be bumped up. My biggest problem is that aside from Apple, and I think B&H, most stores don't offer anything other than the base model... and that's what makes it a problem. Most potential customers aren't aware they even have a choice.

 

[Kal Madda]

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And it’s slotted for a 2024 release, it isn’t commercially available. It’s not an option any PC manufacturers can actually use yet. Maybe some LPDDR laptops will use these in the future, but we’re talking about today. And today, all LPDDR RAM computers have soldered RAM. None are currently using upgradable cards…

 

[The Xth]

Won’t self-proclaimed “pros” be opting for the 14” and 16” models? Either way, it shouldn’t affect them as they normally wouldn’t consider the M3 MBP, iMac or MBA models either way.

Absolutely… except those 14 and 16” higher end models aren’t available either. The Best Buy Geek (or whatever they’re called) told me that they likely won’t be in stock for several months as the most popular one was bound to be the base model.

 

[Kal Madda]

If a Thinkpad isn't isn't considered premium or high-performance, the microsoft surface most definitely isn't.

The Thinkpad isn’t really designed for visual arts such as digital art, 3D, video editing, gaming, etc. The Microsoft Surface Studio is, and the MacBook Pro is, and the AlienWare is. The Thinkpad is marketed for business use, so more like Excel sheets and PowerPoint. Office software. The Thinkpad isn’t supposed to be a premium, cutting edge high-performance machine, it’s supposed to be a reliable business laptop. It’s a different category. The MacBook Pro can obviously be a reliable business laptop as well, but it also has all the hardware it needs to make for an excellent content creation machine with 3D, video, photo editing, etc., and to also be a great gaming laptop.

 

[Kal Madda]

Not who you're replying to, but my daughter has a base M1 Air (8/256), and the RAM is totally a problem. Sure, she leaves open far too many tabs in Chrome, but a lot of people live online these days... so I'm sure she's not alone.

I won't argue that 8GB isn't useful for some, but I'd bet the majority of people who get 8GB regret it. It really doesn't take much before you start hitting swap. I don't care what the base spec is, as long as it can be bumped up. My biggest problem is that aside from Apple, and I think B&H, most stores don't offer anything other than the base model... and that's what makes it a problem. Most potential customers aren't aware they even have a choice.

How many tabs does she use? I’ve run multiple browsers at once including Chrome on an 8GB M-Series Mac, and I never saw noticeable lag. And the issue of availability at stores is on the stores. They choose which configurations they stock, so if they only stock the base model, that may be a problem, but that’s a problem with the stores, not Apple. And that also seems to support my point: if the base configuration is so popular, I don’t think it makes much sense to assume most people are dissatisfied with it. Otherwise, why is it still the most popular?

PS. I’ve had three different browsers open (Safari, Edge, and Chrome) and each had at least 30 tabs open, and it was running snappy, never noticed any lag at all. I’ve never tried 500 tabs open in Safari on an M-Series Mac, but I have on my iPhone which I believe has 4GB of RAM, and it doesn’t create any noticeable lag, even with over a dozen other apps open at the same time. Of course the Mac isn’t an iPhone, but the M-Series Macs can use the exact same RAM management system for that kind of stuff, which makes it far more efficient on RAM usage.

 

[bobcomer]

You may think a Thinkpad is in the same league as a MacBook Pro, but I seriously don’t understand how. They’re not generally what I’d consider in the premium category, or even necessarily that high-performance. 🤷🏼‍♂️. Not to say Thinkpads are bad, they‘re just not generally considered “high-end”, at least not that I’ve ever seen. They’re generally more business oriented, not really designed for visual art or 3D or stuff like that. Now, I will say that the concept of “high-end“, ”premium”, and ”high performance” can be fairly subjective. But the laptops I compared the pricing on with the MacBook Pro actually compare fairly favorably against the MacBook Pro as far as specs go, at least on the average.

And the display is a spec. It’s actually a very important spec for lots of people, because it’s literally the part of the computer you look at every day.

Thinkpads are VERY high on the quality list for business use, and they go from cheaper, general-use all the way to workstation level. They also have OLED displays already. And touch.

 

[Kal Madda]

Thinkpads are VERY high on the quality list for business use, and they go from cheaper, general-use all the way to workstation level. They also have OLED displays already. And touch.

And they’re still business laptops, high quality or not, they’re not really geared toward video editing, 3D, heavy gaming, and that kind of stuff. The MacBook Pro is. So they’re in different categories. That doesn’t mean the Thinkpad is bad quality or anything, that isn’t the point, the point is that the Thinkpad is intended to be a business laptop. The MacBook Pro is a premium, high-performance laptop perfect for video editing, 3D, gaming, etc. To me, the comparison is like comparing a Chrysler 300 against a Ferrari, they’re not really in the same league.

 

[ArkSingularity]

The Thinkpad isn’t really marketed for visual arts such as digital art, 3D, video editing, gaming, etc. The Microsoft Surface Studio is, and the MacBook Pro is, and the AlienWare is. The Thinkpad is marketed for business use, so more like Excel sheets and PowerPoint. Office software. The Thinkpad isn’t supposed to be a premium, cutting edge high-performance machine, it’s supposed to be a reliable business laptop. It’s a different category. The MacBook Pro can obviously be a reliable business laptop as well, but it also has all the hardware it needs to make for an excellent content creation machine with 3D, video, photo editing, etc., and to also be a great gaming laptop.

If we're talking about marketing, then at that point we're basically just paying for the name (and for the "it looks sleek" factor). Marketing is just marketing, it's not really an objective way of saying "this is the PC equivalent of a Mac."

 

[bobcomer]

And they’re still business laptops, high quality or not, they’re not really geared toward video editing, 3D, heavy gaming, and that kind of stuff.

You said premium, not gaming or video -- they are VERY much premium.

The MacBook Pro is.

That's a drawback to me -- if they aren't business premium, they're not premium at all -- really gaming is important to you???

 

[Kal Madda]

Since people want to compare the Thinkpad, how about we do some comparison pricing. Let’s take a look at the X1 Carbon. How much do you think they charge for a RAM upgrade? Well, they make it very difficult to compare, because they list them separately instead of giving you a configurator, but when you hunt down two identical models with the same storage, same CPU, same every other spec but the RAM, we get two models that are $240 different from each other. That’s right, Lenovo charges $240 for a RAM upgrade on the X1 Carbon, from 16GB to 36GB. And it should be noted that the displays on these models are nowhere close to the resolution of the displays on the MacBook Pro, and I’m pretty sure they don’t have battery runtime nearly in the same range. So Lenovo charges more than Apple for a RAM upgrade. The more I price shop on these PC manufacturer websites, the more I’m convinced of two things: many PC manufacturers charge similar or higher RAM upgrade prices as Apple, and many make it harder to see what they’re charging for RAM upgrades by either not offering a configurator, or offering one you have to fight with because it wants to automatically change other things that effect cost as well. But if you take the time and effort to actually look at the pricing, it’s the same or more than Apple for RAM upgrades. Apple just makes it easier to see what they’re charging for upgrades by offering a good configurator on their site.

 

[ArkSingularity]

Since people want to compare the Thinkpad, how about we do some comparison pricing. Let’s take a look at the X1 Carbon. How much do you think they charge for a RAM upgrade? Well, they make it very difficult to compare, because they list them separately instead of giving you a configurator, but when you hunt down two identical models with the same storage, same CPU, same every other spec but the RAM, we get two models that are $240 different from each other. That’s right, Lenovo charges $240 for a RAM upgrade on the X1 Carbon, from 16GB to 36GB. And it should be noted that the displays on these models are nowhere close to the resolution of the displays on the MacBook Pro, and I’m pretty sure they don’t have battery runtime nearly in the same range. So Lenovo charges more than Apple for a RAM upgrade. The more I price shop on these PC manufacturer websites, the more I’m convinced of two things: many PC manufacturers charge similar or higher RAM upgrade prices as Apple, and many make it harder to see what they’re charging for RAM upgrades by either not offering a configurator, or offering one you have to fight with because it wants to automatically change other things that effect cost as well. But if you take the time and effort to actually look at the pricing, it’s the same or more than Apple for RAM upgrades. Apple just makes it easier to see what they’re charging for upgrades by offering a good configurator on their site.

You forgot that a lot of Thinkpads 1) come with 16GB to begin with in this price bracket, and 2) there are still many models that have upgradable RAM.

And thinkpads are far from the only option for this, there are plenty of PC manufacturers that will very readily offer this.

 

[Kal Madda]

If we're talking about marketing, then at that point we're basically just paying for the name (and for the "it looks sleek" factor). Marketing is just marketing, it's not really an objective way of saying "this is the PC equivalent of a Mac."

I meant designed for, not marketed for. Sorry for the miscommunication, I’ll edit that so it’s clearer. A laptop that has the required display quality to be a great content production machine can also be a great business laptop as well. Though I’d argue the MacBook Air is actually more comparable to the Thinkpads.

 

[bobcomer]

CPU, same every other spec but the RAM, we get two models that are $240 different from each other. That’s right, Lenovo charges $240 for a RAM upgrade on the X1 Carbon, from 16GB to 36GB.

That's WAY different than an upgrade from 8 to 16. That's like a 4X upgrade from 8G and you think $240 is too much? Or it justifies Apple for charging $200 for 1 8G upgrade. LOL

So Lenovo charges more than Apple for a RAM upgrade. T

Try to keep to the truth. comparing different RAM upgrades amounts is disingenuous at best.

The more I price shop on these PC manufacturer websites, the more I’m convinced of two things: many PC manufacturers charge similar or higher RAM upgrade prices as Apple,

<chuckle>. That's what looking thru rose colored glasses and playing loose with different RAM amounts. That X1 above doesn't even have an 8G config, as it shouldn't, just like Apple shouldn't.

 

[bobcomer]

Though I’d argue the MacBook Air is actually more comparable to the Thinkpads.

I would *NEVER* consider an MBA for business work. No active cooling, poor screen, heavy for an ultralight, and expensive for what you get.

 

[Kal Madda]

You said premium, not gaming or video -- they are VERY much premium.

That's a drawback to me -- if they aren't business premium, they're not premium at all -- really gaming is important to you???

That’s a misrepresentation of my position. A MacBook Pro can be both a great content creator platform (think visual arts and heavy workflows like video editing, 3D, animation work, game development, gaming, etc, and a great business laptop. The ThinkPad isn’t intended for things like video editing, game development, etc. and it shows. It’s a business laptop. That’s ok, but it’s not the same category.

 

[ArkSingularity]

I meant designed for, not marketed for. Sorry for the miscommunication, I’ll edit that so it’s clearer. A laptop that has the required display quality to be a great content production machine can also be a great business laptop as well. Though I’d argue the MacBook Air is actually more comparable to the Thinkpads.

It just depends. My point isn't to say that you're wrong, it's just to say "look, the PC market is very diverse". People can rate shop in the PC world, and they usually do. They decide what they want in a computer and they find a good deal for it. We have to decide what we're comparing (comparing displays, form factor, and sleekness is a perfectly fine comparison, but it's not really quite the same thing as comparing general industry norms for RAM pricing).

 

[Kal Madda]

I would *NEVER* consider an MBA for business work. No active cooling, poor screen, heavy for an ultralight, and expensive for what you get.

Well, the MacBook Air has a better resolution display than the ThinkPad X1 Carbon…🤷🏼‍♂️😂

 

[Kal Madda]

It just depends. My point isn't to say that you're wrong, it's just to say "look, the PC market is very diverse". People can rate shop in the PC world, and they usually do. They decide what they want in a computer and they find a good deal for it. We have to decide what we're comparing (comparing displays, form factor, and sleekness is a perfectly fine comparison, but it's not really quite the same thing as comparing general industry norms for RAM pricing).

I’ve demonstrated plenty of examples where PC manufacturers are charging the same as or more than Apple for RAM upgrades.

 

[ArkSingularity]

Well, the MacBook Air has a better resolution display than the ThinkPad X1 Carbon…🤷🏼‍♂️😂

Frankly, displays aren't really thinkpads' strong suit if you leave the base configuration on it. The upgraded ones can be quite nice (mine has a touchscreen, and I definitely make very frequent use of it).

 

[ArkSingularity]

I’ve demonstrated plenty of examples where PC manufacturers are charging the same as or more than Apple for RAM upgrades.

Yes, but that doesn't make the point that "this is what Microsoft is charging, therefore Apple is charging market rate." The reality is, I can find any set of bad deals (even from name brands) within about five minutes, but if I'm intentionally looking for a bad deal, I'm doing the opposite of what a lot of actual shoppers do.

Finding some manufacturers that charge the same prices doesn't really imply that these prices are normal across the industry, because the PC market is very diverse. The truth is that it's just as high-priced when Microsoft does it as it is when Apple does it, neither are really charging the market rate (it would be laughable to assume that one couldn't very quickly find a plethora of very nice laptops with 16GB of RAM in the $1600 price bracket).

 

[Kal Madda]

That's WAY different than an upgrade from 8 to 16. That's like a 4X upgrade from 8G and you think $240 is too much? Or it justifies Apple for charging $200 for 1 8G upgrade. LOL


Try to keep to the truth. comparing different RAM upgrades amounts is disingenuous at best.


<chuckle>. That's what looking thru rose colored glasses and playing loose with different RAM amounts. That X1 above doesn't even have an 8G config, as it shouldn't, just like Apple shouldn't.

I am sticking with the truth. I didn’t claim it was an 8GB to 16GB upgrade, I said it was a 16GB to 32GB upgrade. It’s more expensive than the upgrade people have spent 60+ pages complaining about. It’s not my fault that ThinkPad didn’t offer me an 8GB option, if they had, I would have compared that (as it is, I’m comparing the lowest spec I can that actually offers RAM upgrades, so that’s as fair as I can get it unfortunately, Lenovo only offers to RAM capacities for this model, Apple offers far more options), and it should also be noted that the Intel X1 Carbon costs a lot more than the base spec MacBook Pro does to begin with, I could spec a MacBook Pro up quite nicely for what Lenovo is charging for the X1 Carbon, which has a lower resolution display. Even the current Black Friday deal price is about the same as the base model MacBook Pro, but normal price is about double that.

 

[Kal Madda]

Yes, but that doesn't make the point that "this is what Microsoft is charging, therefore Apple is charging market rate." The reality is, I can find any set of bad deals (even from name brands) within about five minutes, but if I'm intentionally looking for a bad deal, I'm doing the opposite of what a lot of actual shoppers do.

Finding some manufacturers that charge the same prices doesn't really imply that these prices are normal across the industry, because the PC market is very diverse. The truth is that it's just as high-priced when Microsoft does it as it is when Apple does it, neither are really charging the market rate (it would be laughable to assume that one couldn't very quickly find a plethora of very nice laptops with 16GB of RAM in the $1600 price bracket).

I’m not starting from the angle of trying to find bad deals, I’m starting from the angle of looking for the models people are comparing against the MacBook Pro, and then looking at their RAM upgrade pricing, and pretty much every time, the RAM upgrades cost either about the same, the same, or even higher. I’ve honestly been surprised that I’ve found higher, because I assumed the upgrade costs would likely be cheaper for the PCs than the MacBook Pro, but the results I’ve gotten have proven that assumption wrong. And to be fair, sure, there are other models of PCs that offer cheaper RAM upgrades, but one consistent theme I’m seeing so far is that it seems most of the time PC manufacturers are charging about, the same, or more than Apple is when they’re using soldered LPDDR RAM. When they’re using upgradeable RAM, they don’t charge as much, likely, in my opinion, because they know if they charged too much, people would just upgrade it themselves and bypass their upgrade pricing. So they have to price it in those cases low enough so that the convenience factor of it already being installed outweighs the penny-pincher instinct of some purchasers. But with soldered RAM, the prices are always higher that I’ve seen so far. I think there are legitimate power efficiency and speed gains from this kind of RAM that justifies a higher price point for the upgrades, and it seems this is often the case with Windows PCs that use the same kind of RAM in a high-performance premium product.

 

[ArkSingularity]

I’m not starting from the angle of trying to find bad deals, I’m starting from the angle of looking for the models people are comparing against the MacBook Pro

I think this is where you and I might be seeing this a little bit differently. I'm not really comparing the MacBook Pro to these same models personally (if anything, I'm much more likely to look at a Thinkpad T-series or something similar). Different users look for different things in a computer, the PC market is very diverse. It's certainly not a useless comparison (not by any means, plenty of people do compare the Surface with the MacBook Pro), it's just that this one comparison isn't really representative of everybody.

 

[bobcomer]

Well, the MacBook Air has a better resolution display than the ThinkPad X1 Carbon…🤷🏼‍♂️😂

I said not as good a display -- resolution isn't everything.(if that is indeed true, I wouldn't know, I didn't look at all the configs)

 

[chucker23n1]

I would *NEVER* consider an MBA for business work. No active cooling, poor screen, heavy for an ultralight, and expensive for what you get.

For whatever it’s worth, a coworker does full-time software development (mostly Web + Flutter, targeting macOS, iOS, Android) on an M2 Air. [Though that wasn’t really the original plan. It wasn’t meant as their primary computer; he has another laptop for that. But he enjoys the Air so much, it became that.] Really, his main complaint is the lack of third screen support; he has DisplayLink for that.

Cooling? Not much of a concern. Screen? I think that’s exaggerated. Yeah, it’s worse than my 14-inch’s, but it’s IMHO not “poor”. Just a bit mediocre. Heavy? He brings it on his bike all the time. Expensive? Well, I suppose.