A drop of coffee = over £2000 worth of damage?

[newellj]

Absolutely spot on. Thanks for the empathetic and non-judgmental advice.

I actually thought his post was facetious humor - I could be wrong.

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I am not following the logic of your expectations. You say that there could be additional damaged components and that it could take time for that damage to become evident:

I agree that there's the potential for more damage, yes. But I'm not sure that that's what my evaluation should be based on. As I've said, if it was water, despite the potential for damage being exactly the same, they would have likely agreed to replace the parts that were damaged, but because it's coffee, and they can see the sticky residue on the back case, they're refusing to do anything. I'm not sure where cleaning the residue before having it reevaluated would lie in terms of a moral perspective, but from a financial point of view, it could help me out immensely.

I guess the question is whether I find it more important to stay honest and accept the consequences of my actions, or to disguise the spill as if it had been just water, which would potentially save my most expensive asset as well as my degree, as I'm genuinely considering packing in as a direct result of this.

I have to admit, I haven't made up my mind as of yet.

They wouldn't know what was potentially damaged. Liquid damage can go unnoticed for years, apparently.

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I don't think they use those to evaluate damage, they're just there to confirm whether or not the warranty is void.

But then you expect them to give you a warranty on the entire machine, even if they replace only a few components that they can currently determine have been damaged and without replacing others that may damaged be or may turn out to be damaged in the future?

That's just not true. If Apple perform a repair, even if it's something that isn't covered by the warranty and you have to pay for it, the entire machine is placed back under warranty after they're finished. I don't know if you're already aware of this, and are just trying to sway me away from doing something that you view as unethical, but I already know that for a fact.

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It was more his general attitude, and the fact that he actually recommended that I sell it for parts and use that money to put towards another Mac that made me suspicious of him.

What parts am I supposed to sell, eh? You're telling me they all need to be replaced!

I have BTDT with "coffee." Your coffee had milk in it, which means there's sugar (lactose) in the liquid even if you don't put table sugar in your coffee - so it's not simple water. I knocked over a mocha latte once. What a frigging mess. Between the milk and the chocolate syrup, the whole scene was an environmental disaster.

I think your best bet is simply trying again. You may get a better answer from a different person. Bon chance (sincerely). :-/

 

[Queen6]

I'm not trying to pretend that it wasn't due to liquid, I'm trying to make them repair the parts that are actually damaged. Getting a little bit of liquid on your keyboard doesn't automatically mean that every part needs to be replaced, surely you can vouch for that. If I clean off the residue from the hard drive, Apple might not view it as something that needs to be replaced, you know?

Unfortunately that`s Apples policy, if the moisture sensors are triggered and or the liquid invades the boards, nor will Apple reinstate your warranty (if documented) until corrective action is taken. your options are simple;

• Go back to Apple, be polite and calm someone may decide to help you out.
• Go to a third party Mac specialist to effect a minimum repair.
• Live with the Notebook as is.

Vast majority of consumer electronics are not water/liquid resistant Apple is simply par for the course, those Notebooks that do carry a premium for it.


Q-6

 

[scaredpoet]

The "rule" is that no "user-inflicted damage" is covered. However, it is easy to see that any spill-related damage is inflicted by Apple. This is because Apple has systematically (and irresponsibly) engineered their computers to be vulnerable to spills, when water-resistance technology has existed practically forever!

Apple has no responsibility, whatsoever, to guarantee the spill proof nature of their laptops, nor engineer them as such. They have never advertised them as being spill proof. So no user had as any reasonable or justifiable reason to assume such.

And, while some laptop vendors do produce spill-resistant laptops, they do not guarantee that those systems will survive a spill. The chance of survivability may be increased, but if you bring a waterlogged laptop back to the vendor and expect them cover it under warranty, you will be out of luck there too. Panasonic does offer "protection plus" plans for their Toughbooks in some countries, but that amounts to an insurance policy, and is an extra cost.

Further, most spill-resistant laptops are tested against plain water spills. Bring coffee, sugary drinks, acids, and other liquids into the picture, and all bets are off.

Sorry, but like it or not, the responsibility remains with the user to not spill coffee into their laptops.

 

[simonsi]

Knowing that, I'm under no moral obligation to play this in any way that isn't the most beneficial to myself.

I'm paying someone £25 to give it a thorough cleaning tomorrow, and then I have another Apple Store appointment booked in for Sunday morning. I'll report back with the good news.

That would be self-justification. Good luck with the cleaning, it wont un-trigger any spill sensors.

 

[broflovski]

But then you expect them to give you a warranty on the entire machine, even if they replace only a few components that they can currently determine have been damaged and without replacing others that may damaged be or may turn out to be damaged in the future?

Apple's policy, at least in the UK, is that if they repair something for you, no matter how small, or whether it was covered by them or not, they have to extend the warranty for another three years. That's why, currently, I'm being told that they won't touch my MacBook unless it involves replacing everything.

So, essentially yes. I want to pay Apple to replace my logic board, or whatever else they find actually wrong with it, and then my warranty will automatically be fully renewed, so if I do have any longterm problems, I can take it back to Apple and they'll deal with them.

Is that so immoral? I genuinely agree with what was written in that guy's reply. It is irresponsible design on their part. And they are profiting from it.

 

[broflovski]

That would be self-justification. Good luck with the cleaning, it wont un-trigger any spill sensors.

If I wanted to get creative, I'm sure I could find a way to make the liquid sensors white again. I'm sure I could do a good enough job to fool some in-store technician working for £10/hr. I don't want to do that, though. I don't need to.

 

[windywalks]

I'm not trying to pretend that it wasn't due to liquid, I'm trying to make them repair the parts that are actually damaged. Getting a little bit of liquid on your keyboard doesn't automatically mean that every part needs to be replaced, surely you can vouch for that. If I clean off the residue from the hard drive, Apple might not view it as something that needs to be replaced, you know?

I've just given you a suggestion based on what I've been through. I've spilled an entire cup of cappuccino on my rMBP and nothing permeated through the keyboard, only through the back and side vents.
I would have been in the same shoes as you if I haven't cleaned it up.
All I got was a three month extension on the exchanged components.
What document actually states the Apple policy in the UK you mentioned?

 

[Brian Y]

Call apple, to me the apple store guy broke it by not cleaning the coffee off the internals before powering it up! If it was working fine to start with and then started failing, it was HIS doing, not yours!

I once spilled a whole glass of wine into a laptop, luckily it had a removable battery which I ripped off, after a few days of drying, i popped it open and gently removed the dried sediment like material that was all over the boards inside before it could short circuit anything.. It worked fine for a few years after that though it did retain a certain smell!!

Please don't start blaming a retail employee for the op spilling a cup of coffee. How would you like it if someone blamed you for something they'd done, which could potentially cost you your job, when they were trying to help you? Not powering up these machines has very little effect these days anyway - the biggest difference is to remove the battery, but unless you have a pentalobe driver VERY handy, that's not happening.

Apple will not repair certain parts of a liquid damaged machine, and you really can't blame them for this. They need to return it to a warrantable condition. If they replaced just the speaker, and then another part failed later on, would you be covered or not? This is why they have that policy. They're covering their ass, and in this sue-happy day and age, that's the sensible thing for them to do.

Did you purchase on a credit card with any protection? Have any home insurance that may cover it?

If not, you have 3 options:

1. Sell it on eBay as "For repair" and buy a new one. You'd be surprised how much they go for.

2. Replace the speaker yourself, and hope nothing else breaks. Note: if you take milk or sugar in your coffee - change the top case too. The sugar will make the keys sticky, and the milk will stink when it gets hot. Trust me, I've repaired enough tea/coffee damaged machines in my time to know it's more pleasant to do this now.

3. Take it to an independent shop who can clean it. It'll probably cost a few hundred, but it will mean there is less chance of anything breaking in the future.

My final word of advice when it comes to liquid damage - just because it's working now, don't assume it's undamaged. If you put a metal rod in a bucket of water it won't corrode instantly - but leave it a while and it will. Electronics are the same - you may find that rust develop slowly and it will break further down the line - and then it'll cost far more than a good cleaning will now.

IMO, if you're a student, I'd go for option 1. Yes, it's more money now. But how would you feel if it died a week before an important deadline?

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Apple's policy, at least in the UK, is that if they repair something for you, no matter how small, or whether it was covered by them or not, they have to extend the warranty for another three years. That's why, currently, I'm being told that they won't touch my MacBook unless it involves replacing everything.

So, essentially yes. I want to pay Apple to replace my logic board, or whatever else they find actually wrong with it, and then my warranty will automatically be fully renewed, so if I do have any longterm problems, I can take it back to Apple and they'll deal with them.

Is that so immoral? I genuinely agree with what was written in that guy's reply. It is irresponsible design on their part. And they are profiting from it.

The only irresponsible thing is spilling coffee on your laptop and trying to blame everyone but yourself. The genius. Now even Jony Ive is being blamed.

And that's not correct, a repair doesn't extend it for 3 years. A repair gets you the longer of 90 days or the original warranty period. For them to warrant it, it has to be in warrantable condition. If it's electronic and exposed to water, it's no longer warrantable.

If I wanted to get creative, I'm sure I could find a way to make the liquid sensors white again. I'm sure I could do a good enough job to fool some in-store technician working for £10/hr. I don't want to do that, though. I don't need to.

That would be fraud. By generating a quote, it will be stored in the system. A quote cannot be generated otherwise. If you have a liquid damaged machine one day, and a "oh it just broke" one the next, they're going to know.

Also - it's very easy to detect liquid damage on a machine without LCIs.

Instead of finding a way out, or trying to blame everyone, try taking responsibility for your actions.

 

[simonsi]

If I wanted to get creative, I'm sure I could find a way to make the liquid sensors white again. I'm sure I could do a good enough job to fool some in-store technician working for £10/hr. I don't want to do that, though. I don't need to.

Wow, no problem with your attitude then. What you seem to fail to grasp is that once exposed to liquid there is no way Apple can predict the future failure likelyhood of components failing when the exposure can't be known exactly (and may have been covered up/minimised - yes what you are proposing). In essence though, ANY exposure to liquid in even tiny amounts can cause issues now, and at indeterminate points in the future, hence they are conservative.

Their answer is to set a trigger, then require a certain level of repair/replacement before reinstating the warranty.

BTW the same will happen to a new car, you damage it (whoever's fault it is), and have any repairs carried out at a non-manufacturer-approved shop, you can expect your warranty to be voided.

Quite sad to see the "they are big and nasty in their design making it susceptible to water therefore I can morally justify fraud". Self-justification of the first order.

Man up and accept the event was caused by you. Essentially it is behaviour such as yours that has driven the very Apple (and other manufacturers) policies in this regard.

 

[broflovski]

If it's electronic and exposed to water, it's no longer warrantable.

According to whom, yourself? I know you'd love it if it were so, but fortunately not everyone at Apple sees it that way.

 

[Brian Y]

According to whom, yourself? I know you'd love it if it were so, but fortunately not everyone at Apple sees it that way.

That *is* the case, and exactly why this thread exists. It doesn't matter whether it's coffee, beer, water, or a nice merlot. Liquid damage is liquid damage, and any component which has been into contact with a conductive or corrosive liquid isn't eligible for any current or future warranty coverage.

Just how it is. If you don't want to believe it, be my guest - I have no benefit in you believing me or not (I quite frankly couldn't care less).

 

[simonsi]

According to whom, yourself? I know you'd love it if it were so, but fortunately not everyone at Apple sees it that way.

Noooo

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201880

"Mac computers: Liquid damage is not covered by warranty
Damage due to liquid exposure is not covered by the Apple One (1) Year Limited Warranty or the AppleCare Protection Plan (APP).
Liquid Contact Indicators (LCI) have been added to specific locations on current Mac notebook and desktop computers and wired or wireless keyboards to help determine if systems have been exposed to liquid. "

Well I never....HTH - oh that page's "last modified date" is Mar 5th 2015 so its very current.

 

[broflovski]

Quite sad to see the "they are big and nasty in their design making it susceptible to water therefore I can morally justify fraud". Self-justification of the first order.

Whatever. Define fraud for me. There's nothing illegal about what I'm doing, and you know it. I'm sure that I'm well within my rights to clean that what I've paid £2,000 for, and then post to this request another evaluation from Apple. Please, make my intentions known to the authorities before it's too late.

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That *is* the case, and exactly why this thread exists. It doesn't matter whether it's coffee, beer, water, or a nice merlot. Liquid damage is liquid damage, and any component which has been into contact with a conductive or corrosive liquid isn't eligible for any current or future warranty coverage.

Just how it is. If you don't want to believe it, be my guest - I have no benefit in you believing me or not (I quite frankly couldn't care less).

Well, I know for a fact that my friend still has his warranty after tipping an entire glass of water through his MacBook, and having a few parts repaired. His warranty was void, but then it was reinstated after the repair.

It's not a case of me choosing whether to believe you, it's a case of you blatantly making things up, and I'd like to know why.

----------

Noooo

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201880

"Mac computers: Liquid damage is not covered by warranty
Damage due to liquid exposure is not covered by the Apple One (1) Year Limited Warranty or the AppleCare Protection Plan (APP).
Liquid Contact Indicators (LCI) have been added to specific locations on current Mac notebook and desktop computers and wired or wireless keyboards to help determine if systems have been exposed to liquid. "

Well I never....HTH - oh that page's "last modified date" is Mar 5th 2015 so its very current.

Amazing. We've already established that the warranty is void, what he's saying is that I have no way of getting it back. He's saying that regardless of how many repairs I get done, the warranty is gone and never coming back. That's what we're disputing. Keep up.

 

[MagicBoy]

Really OP. Stop being so arrogant.

You accidentally spilt Coffee on your new MacBook. That's bad, and I feel for you. No excuse for the rest of this thread. Grow up and take some responsibility for not having insurance.

 

[simonsi]

Whatever. Define fraud for me.

Your are cleaning it for the purpose of misrepresenting what has happened having already been told by Apple that it isn't covered. In other words you are about to fraudulently claim on the warranty.

Since you asked for a definition, have Wiki's

"In law, fraud is deliberate deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain"

Maybe you need to do a law class.

 

[MartinAppleGuy]

Your are cleaning it for the purpose of misrepresenting what has happened having already been told by Apple that it isn't covered. In other words you are about to fraudulently claim on the warranty.

But that's ok to do that and break the law. What's not ok is Apple wanting to repair what is possibly a danger to whoever is using the computer by replaying all components with coffee on/in/around them

 

[broflovski]

Your are cleaning it for the purpose of misrepresenting what has happened having already been told by Apple that it isn't covered. In other words you are about to fraudulently claim on the warranty.

Since you asked for a definition, have Wiki's

"In law, fraud is deliberate deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain"

Maybe you need to do a law class.

Key words there are "unlawful" and "unfair". One is incorrect, the other is highly subjective.

 

[rkho]

EDIT

I posted some helpful comments here including a possible workaround the repair policy from my time as a former Genius, but it's clear from these last two pages that you're a scumbag so I've removed them. Good luck with your life.

 

[MartinAppleGuy]

(Deleted Comment)

 

[broflovski]

Really OP. Stop being so arrogant.

You accidentally spilt Coffee on your new MacBook. That's bad, and I feel for you. No excuse for the rest of this thread. Grow up and take some responsibility for not having insurance.

I mean, I see your point. But I have people stating things as fact that I know aren't true. It's exhausting. If I'm commenting on threads, I'm trying to help the OP, not elicit him into fear by making things up.

I think I'm done now. I'll report back when it's all sorted for those of you who are interested, but I won't be responding to anything else until then.

Thank you everyone, for at least taking the time to read through my drivel.

Cheers.

 

[newellj]

Apple's policy, at least in the UK, is that if they repair something for you, no matter how small, or whether it was covered by them or not, they have to extend the warranty for another three years. That's why, currently, I'm being told that they won't touch my MacBook unless it involves replacing everything.

So, essentially yes. I want to pay Apple to replace my logic board, or whatever else they find actually wrong with it, and then my warranty will automatically be fully renewed, so if I do have any longterm problems, I can take it back to Apple and they'll deal with them.

Is that so immoral? I genuinely agree with what was written in that guy's reply. It is irresponsible design on their part. And they are profiting from it.

I didn't say or even hint that it was immoral, but it's not logical. There is absolutely nothing irresponsible about their design, however.

 

[simonsi]

Key words there are "unlawful" and "unfair". One is incorrect, the other is highly subjective.

You need a logic class too. Either constitutes fraud. However as you are seeking to overturn Apple's already stated position by being deceptive you would have a hard time winning you case on moral, legal or ethical grounds.

But do what you will, frankly I hope you fail as I don't want to pay for your carelessness in the cost of my next Apple product. I don't think any other Apple customer should bare your incurred cost either.

 

[rhyzome]

"You accidentally spilt Coffee on your new MacBook. That's bad, and I feel for you. No excuse for the rest of this thread. Grow up and take some responsibility for not having insurance."

Is this his health we're talking about? It is interesting that in the US, it is our responsibility to buy insurance (we love to imagine how we're in control of our social positions, our rich's and their poverty is our or their fault), but in the UK(?) it is the responsibility of the government and broader society to provide healthcare for the population (for aren't the ills of people, at least a significant fraction of the time, the result of interactions of people and society? And what about the notion of legitimate royalty and the legitimate welfare state?). Different socially constituted delegations of responsibility...

People always seem to have deep mores on one or another side of this controversy, and though we're not talking about health, I'd bet the debate has a lot to do with this.

 

[simonsi]

and though we're not talking about health, I'd bet the debate has a lot to do with this.

I have no idea what link you are drawing there, I'm in New Zealand

 

[rhyzome]

I have no idea what link you are drawing there, I'm in New Zealand

Well, the note about taking responsibility for not having insurance reminded me of healthcare debates common in the US.

In any case, I think that the thread raises important questions about the relationship between the individual and the company--which is a unique company as it increasingly performs tasks that straddle the roles of many other institutions not traditionally incorporated in incorporations: the state, schools, crediting, recently stewarding forests...

What exactly do they owe each other? The question is complicated further by the fact that their machines have become more or less necessary for people to carry out routine tasks in certain roles (student). Dare I say it, they have become necessary for many to even be their "self". Apple products are marketed as things to use to do schoolwork in cafes (from which it is easy to extrapolated that they encourage the belief that a user is not morally flawed sipping open drinks near it) as well as to be identity-makers and placeholders. Their customizability and the packaging of apps to manage photos, personal lists, calendars, one's thoughts, only reinforces that interpretation.

What are people entitled to? At what point is the choice to repair or buy a new computer not a completely free choice, but one containing an element of coercion?