Add a New "Doom and Gloom" section?

[MechaSpanky]

There are too many "Apple is washed up", "Tim cook has to go", "I bought my last Mac", "I'm leaving Apple" etc threads that it might be easier to just add a negative comments section. Why all the negativity? Be Happy! If you aren't happy with Apple's products, then buy and use something else. Problem solved. I for one like Apple's products. Sure they aren't perfect but no product is.

Mecha

 

[C DM]

There are too many "Apple is washed up", "Tim cook has to go", "I bought my last Mac", "I'm leaving Apple" etc threads that it might be easier to just add a negative comments section. Why all the negativity? Be Happy! If you aren't happy with Apple's products, then buy and use something else. Problem solved. I for one like Apple's products. Sure they aren't perfect but no product is.

Mecha

The Apple Inc and Industry is essentially more or less that type of section these days.

 

[ivanwi11iams]

As much as it is nice to have freedom of speech and such; these doom and gloom threads are a bit much.

After all, if you're buying a product, no one is forcing you to. So, purchase the product YOU want to use. And use your product return period if yo buy something and don't like it.

 

[ardchoille50]

There are too many "Apple is washed up", "Tim cook has to go", "I bought my last Mac", "I'm leaving Apple" etc threads that it might be easier to just add a negative comments section.

It's called gross generalization. And, yes, I feel there should be a section for this.. so I could add it to the other useless sections that I ignore.

If you aren't happy with Apple's products, then buy and use something else.

That would require common sense.. not everyone is versed in such things.

Problem solved.

Believe it or not, some people don't really want their problem to be solved, they have become so comfortable with chaos that they go out of their way to perpetuate it.

 

[MechaSpanky]

I've been a Mac user since 1990 and I remember some pretty dark days (before the second coming of Steve Jobs) but I've never seen so many complainers, especially when Apple is doing so well. I guess it wouldn't be Apple if there weren't some nutty haters out there.

Mecha

 

[maflynn]

but I've never seen so many complainers,

The difference is that Apple is so much larger now and has a larger portfolio of products. I also remember the dark days and there were plenty of people complaining, but I think the bigger enemy was Windows at the time, so that united us somewhat. The old "us against the world" mentality.

especially when Apple is doing so well.

Financially yes, but I think people are getting more and more disappointed with Apple's product offerings.

Back on topic, the Apple Inc and Industry is the forum for such discussions, though people will have specific gripes with the iPhone in the iPhone forum, and MBPs in its forum.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I think that there is a difference between some of the general - and excessively critical - 'doom and gloom' style threads, (and posts), and more nuanced, thoughtful offerings, where a post is informed by a critically analytical intelligence and recognises context, the nature of tech development, and how these may conflict with the needs of the market and shareholder requirements.

 

[MechaSpanky]

Scepticalscribe,

I completely agree with you. I think if more people were a little more eloquent about their criticisms then it would be better. I think that logical and rational arguments are what is needed but what I keep reading is "Apple sucks because they don't make what I want them to...." or something to that effect. Not very persuasive if you ask me.

Mecha

 

[mobilehaathi]

We can make it a sub-forum of PRSI.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

We can make it a sub-forum of PRSI.

I like the general gist but think a more subtle execution of this idea might be called for.

 

[cube]

We can make it a sub-forum of PRSI.

I first thought it was about the World, not Apple.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I'd recommend a sub-forum - with access rules and posting rules somewhat similar to, or akin to - those of PRSI, but as a subsection of some of the more surreal and paranoid Apple threads.

Let us say, for example, the iPhone Zone, an area I usually try to steer well clear of.

 

[mobilehaathi]

I first thought it was about the World, not Apple.

I don't know. Some people behave as if Apple is their whole world...

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I don't know. Some people behave as if Apple is their whole world...

Yes, and it is something that I have long found a bit unsettling along with the wild - and somewhat uncritical - excessively emotional adoration for the Person of the Founder.

Now, I like Apple: I am writing this on an Apple computer, and, in any of my recent missions abroad, I have been known as One Of Those Few Individuals Who Likes & Uses Apple Gear.

But, much though I like some of the products made by the company, I am reluctant to suspend my critical faculties or analytical capacity when something the company chooses to do does not delight or enthuse me.

Likewise, however, I am equally unlikely to weep and gnash my teeth in wild rage when something the company does does not delight or enthuse me.

 

[phrehdd]

I am blessed. I am happy to see good technical discussions about Apple products and Apple marketing models as well as rants by frustrated users as they represent at least some subset of actual users. Given how OSX/MacOS is for many of us the real reason we stay with Apple even if the hardware doesn't exactly meet our needs is starting to become less of a reason. The latter has become louder in voice by many who are willing to jump over. This entire phenomena of late is a real departure from just a couple of years ago.

It would be nice to say how I really feel but alas, it isn't welcomed here by intent or by how I prefer to embrace the language. So, with that - I'll just say again, (for me and a few others here) Apple now is just another company.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I am blessed. I am happy to see good technical discussions about Apple products and Apple marketing models as well as rants by frustrated users as they represent at least some subset of actual users. Given how OSX/MacOS is for many of us the real reason we stay with Apple even if the hardware doesn't exactly meet our needs is starting to become less of a reason. The latter has become louder in voice by many who are willing to jump over. This entire phenomena of late is a real departure from just a couple of years ago.

It would be nice to say how I really feel but alas, it isn't welcomed here by intent or by how I prefer to embrace the language. So, with that - I'll just say again, (for me and a few others here) Apple now is just another company.

But @phrehdd - and this is what I don't understand about the adulation of Apple: It was always just another company, even though it (very cleverly) marketed itself as being the sanctuary, the space, or the company which offered a welcoming tech space, or place - for an esoteric elite, those who "got it", in tech terms, which allowed them to feel special, part of a new (tech) adventure, and, frankly, part of an 'in' group, who 'just got' it, a kind of high priesthood, of the technological sphere.

This appealed hugely for the need to belong, and the need to feel superior that many nerds felt; the fact that Apple designed beautiful products which met the criteria for excellent design in a fusion where form meets function also helped hugely in enabling Apple to craft and finely hone the (very attractive) image they cultivated.

 

[phrehdd]

But @phrehdd - and this is what I don't understand about the adulation of Apple: It was always just another company, even though it (very cleverly) marketed itself as being the sanctuary, the space, or the company which offered a welcoming tech space, or place - for an esoteric elite, those who "got it", in tech terms, which allowed them to feel special, part of a new (tech) adventure, and, frankly, part of an 'in' group, who 'just got' it, a kind of high priesthood, of the technological sphere.

This appealed hugely for the need to belong, and the need to feel superior that many nerds felt; the fact that Apple designed beautiful products which met the criteria for excellent design in a fusion where form meets function also helped hugely in enabling Apple to craft and finely hone the (very attractive) image they cultivated.

Interesting perspective and appreciated. Apple had earned long ago a real mark in history as a company that dealt with electronics that actually added and influenced a generation's culture. We both know as many others do, that the "it just works" refers to Apple of yesterday. Apple today is a different company with different goals that are influenced by a very different competition of yesteryear. This leaves many long term Apple users having either to accept and adapt to Apple of today, continue to use and be frustrated or jump ship (and of course a few other options as well).

As for types of users, I don't quite see the early Apple customer base as nerds. In fact lots of purchases were by people in the industry, arts and so forth. PCs on the other hand were for geeks and nerds (me being one of them). We had to choose between Commodores, PCs and a few others. We saw Tandy machines in small businesses rather than Apple or PC and then PCs pretty much take over with DOS and later the acceptable virus called Windows. Why do I say the PC/DOS gang are the nerds - we had to tinker with limitations of memory, use products like Desqview for "multi-tasking" (serial tasking as it were) and modify a couple of files to either get things loaded or improve performance. Apple on the other hand - just worked (with their RISC processors and efficient OS).

I'll just say again, Apple for me and perhaps a few others 'lost its shine' and has gone down a different road so it makes it just another choice among many with nothing really to make it stand out in a positive way anymore - iPhone has true competition, the iPad has real competition, the computer types offered have heavy competition and that just leaves the OS which perhaps was its saving grace yet it too is becoming bloated and not as snappy as days gone by.

Again thanks for response.

 

[zorinlynx]

I think the reason a lot of Apple users complain rather than just "use something else" is because things are still a lot worse on the other side.

Now, this is my opinion, but personally I can't STAND Windows. Android is not so bad, but it has more security concerns and isn't as polished and well-performing as iOS. That said, it HAS gotten better; jumping ship would be a lot less painful now than it was five years ago, but it would still be painful. And the thought of using Windows gives me nightmares, so forget about that.

Apple has indeed fallen a bit lately. Their QC has dropped a bit, and they've been making some questionable decisions in their products, like dropping the headphone jack, going USB-C only on the Macbook Pro and making the machines really hard to service. HOWEVER, even with these downsides, it's still far better on this side of the fence.

Again, opinion. OPINION! We all like different things. But I think that's where a lot of the Apple complainers are coming from. Things are still nice, but they are not quite as nice, and we're worried it's going to keep getting worse until it's just as bad on this side.

 

[whooleytoo]

Do we really want a site that's only for positive feedback? To me, such a partisan, non-objective site would hardly be worth reading.

Maybe the negative feedback shouldn't just be readily dismissed as whininess and might instead be indicative of problems with Apple's products and services? This is an Apple-only site; if things are negative here it's likely worse elsewhere. Feedback - even negative - can be a very good thing. If it's listened to.

As for why people don't just buy other products: that would be easy if Apple was getting everything wrong. What makes Apple so frustrating is that they get so many things right, and a few things very wrong. People love their design and OS and really want to buy Apple products even at a premium, but Apple with their closed market approach, focus on features that many end-users don't want, and unwillingness to listen to customer feedback, add unnecessary limits on what's possible/practical for their users. Plus, switching platforms is extremely difficult if you have an investment in software and/or skills.

I've been a Mac user since the Plus, and Mac owner since the LC. I've been an Apple intern, external contractor and full-time employee. I've done software QA, triage and development in Apple. In 26 years I've never bought anything other than Macs (also have an ATV, iPhone and iPad). And increasingly I feel like a sap, paying a price premium to a company that's offering desktops with low-end components, notebooks that require more and more dongles to be usable, ever decreasing upgradability....

 

[Brookzy]

I'll just say again, Apple for me and perhaps a few others 'lost its shine' and has gone down a different road so it makes it just another choice among many with nothing really to make it stand out in a positive way anymore - iPhone has true competition, the iPad has real competition, the computer types offered have heavy competition and that just leaves the OS which perhaps was its saving grace yet it too is becoming bloated and not as snappy as days gone by.

Maybe we've all just got older and grumpier and spoiled for choice. I know I have!

Do we really want a site that's only for positive feedback? To me, such a partisan, non-objective site would hardly be worth reading.

But the problem is that the "Tim must go"-esque posts are not objective or reasoned or nuanced. They're effectively spam. Criticism is to be encouraged in my opinion, but like any argument it should have some depth to it.

---

Returning to the original point, I think the negativity is just a feature of the declining quality of the commentary found on MacRumors. Just like Apple appears to have 'lost its shine', to borrow @phrehdd's phrase, as a result of growing pains, so has MacRumors.

A while ago I suggested a system of anonymous down voting or disliking. Pointless one-line posts such as "Tim must go" would doubtless be down voted by the largely reasonable MacRumors member base. It would be anonymous and private (not visible on a per-post basis to any member), avoiding a public humiliation or 'pile on' effect, and preventing the down voted member from feeling abused/targeted/disheartened etc.

Combined with a feature to automatically hide posts from users with a high proportion of down votes (to be determined from a trial perhaps), this would in my eyes be a viable solution.

I have no idea how tough this would be technically, but the beauty of it is that:

• It doesn't silence anyone, preserving freedom of speech
• It doesn't create a stigma or encourage bullying or other animosity
• It will stop bickering in threads containing poor quality posts, because rather than members replying to express their disdain, they can just down vote.
• It serves as a gentle nudge to poor quality posters whose accounts are marked as a 'high proportion down voted' that whilst they are not breaking any rules, they may want to reconsider their approach to the forum

Perhaps I am missing a glaring issue with such a system but I can't think of one yet.

 

[phrehdd]

Brookzy - you seem to have taken to posting a very thought out expression of a road better traveled. I enjoy a mix of folks from the sage technical to the "I just switched to Mac" folks. None of their language is going to be the same. We might also realize that the powers that be inject their opinions of what is acceptable and by whom. I think that while I would enjoy at times the "thumbs down," it might make people not want to post their thoughts in fear of being humiliated with having their name associated with a large sum of thumbs down.

Older and grumpier? Hmmm I would give you a thumbs down if they had one. (g)

Candidly, I understand why some are frustrated with the level of posts here and perhaps conduct but I am far more, shall we say, critical of the pick and choose of those that moderate in that one day something is fine and the next day it is worthy of a "reminder." I rather have the police policed than the posters (other than obvious hyper-trolls which are blatant in intent and activity).

 

[maflynn]

There are too many "Apple is washed up", "Tim cook has to go",

I created a merged/mega Tim Cook discussion thread, so people can use that instead of creating new threads about what he's done or how he must go or who should replace him.

I'll start looking over the other types of threads, complaints about Apple's product lines, and Apple corporation itself, to see if those are good candidates for merging and creating a mega thread.

 

[MechaSpanky]

maflynn,

Thanks. With the huge number of anti-Tim and "Apple is washed up" I would imagine that it will be quite a popular thread but one that I personally will avoid.

 

[maflynn]

I would imagine that it will be quite a popular thread but one that I personally will avoid.

The issue will be will people use that thread or just continue to create a thread that is important to them about Cook. Either way the moderation team will work on merging if that occurs.

 

[pat500000]

There are too many "Apple is washed up", "Tim cook has to go", "I bought my last Mac", "I'm leaving Apple" etc threads that it might be easier to just add a negative comments section. Why all the negativity? Be Happy! If you aren't happy with Apple's products, then buy and use something else. Problem solved. I for one like Apple's products. Sure they aren't perfect but no product is.

Mecha

This comment is negative as well.