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As far as the "vast majority" will never see your HTML5 site... I mean really... you are speaking of the folks using as far back as IE6... now, to be fair, you are right, that is a BIG chunk of people. But lets be realistic here... if I'm doing web design and hosting etc.... do you think those IE6 folks are my target audience? Should I waste my time and resources to appease them as well? They are an afterthought.
If you're a professional web designer then you should know that it's not YOUR audience that matters, it's YOUR CLIENT'S audience that matters. If your client is manufacturing state-of-the-art web widgits, you're probably correct in your assumption. But if they're selling ye-olde-worlde brick-a-brac, I suggest that many of their customers might not be up to date on technology, or care about it for that matter.
 
Well... all I can say as a web designer.... there is ONE, SINGLE, line of code you can put into your website source that will fix you IE9 issues you are having with CSS. One line.... maybe 20-30 characters long. That's it.

I just offered one simple example. There are lots of things even IE9 seems to have trouble doing in the HTML5+CSS3+Javascript toolbox. And then again, the vast majority of IE users are not even on IE9. So "one line of code" won't fix the problem for ALL of them (and there are way more of "them" than there are of "us").

As far as the "vast majority" will never see your HTML5 site... I mean really... you are speaking of the folks using as far back as IE6... now, to be fair, you are right, that is a BIG chunk of people. But lets be realistic here... if I'm doing web design and hosting etc.... do you think those IE6 folks are my target audience? Should I waste my time and resources to appease them as well? They are an afterthought. Granted all of IE still makes up damn near 50% of internet browsers being used today... but in reality probably only a small handful of that 50% is my target audience.

They are older folks most of the time, and computer/internet illiterate folks who are using whatever browser came pre-installed on their machines when they bought them.

Congratulations. So to make the problem resolve favorable to the Apple-supporting answer you want to offer, you choose to just cut the head off of the big crowd to argue for the small minority? Do you do this for your clients if they say they want to reach as many people in the world as possible: "how about we ignore most of the people so that this will work for the smaller numbers with the latest & greatest browser technologies? Sure, only a small subset of the world will be able to see your offerings, but they are the "good" people, not old f*rts" (even if there are tons of those older people, many of which happen to have money to spend on consuming lots of products). And, by the way, we happen to sell an awful lot of product to the younger crowd who are using whatever browser came with their Windows computer, most of which is IE8 or earlier. There is not a HTML5-only option for them. Shall we just dump all those sales opportunities so that only the "good" prospects can see our offerings?

You know who those folks are being targeted by? Ever seen those shotty computer virus commercials? That's their target audience because those IE6 people are running such outdated materials and probably aren't even sure how to properly protect their computers from viruses.

Again, twisting the answer as if it's only IE6 users. Anyone can easily search for browser usage numbers to see that Safari & Chrome is still the tiny segment in a massively larger pool. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Web_browser_usage_share_v2.svg
Do a little more searching and you can see IE broken out by versions. Even more interesting is converting what is often shown as percentages into numbers of people (many of which have some money in their pockets and are prospective buyers of many kinds of products & services). In general, the massive crowd that is IE is NOT using IE9, but instead versions 6-8. It's not just OLD people that don't know how to upgrade. And version 6-8 are pretty HTML5+CSS3+Javascript UNfriendly. Firefox has its own issues with HTML5 (again, anyone can do a search).

And again: even if we want to believe that Flash is nothing more than an alternative to Quicktime or Windows Media (a video codec), if we could wave a magic wand today and convert all Flash video everywhere to Apple's desired version of h.264 for HTML5, while we Apple users would immediately have iDevice access to all that video, the vast majority of the rest of the world would be locked out (couldn't see it at all). That's not just the IE6 users. Those trying to nail down a HTML5 standard can't even settle on ONE video codec standard. Flash video has been able to run on EVERYTHING (except iDevices, and only because Steve has chosen for his consumers rather than letting them choose for themselves) for what: nearly a decade now?

But Flash is much more than just a video codec. And it can do all kinds of stuff that HTML5 can't do. For example, what can be done with audio in HTML5 is a relative joke compared to what Flash can do with audio. We just went through a transition at my company hoping to embrace "the future" so that all of our interactive mixed media done in Flash could be replaced by HTML5+CSS+javascript. It couldn't be done. HTML5 just isn't as capable as Flash (YET). And embracing a pure HTML5 solution with a "die Flash die" mentality means the vast majority of the world (not just IE6) users would be locked out of being able to see our offerings (though the tiny group that is iDevice, Safari & Chrome, etc users could).

This new thing from Adobe is nice for what it is- at last a (somewhat) "for dummies" tool to help take advantage of a fair amount of what HTML5+CSS3+javascript can do today. However, note the simplicity of even the professional example. Where is the sound? Is moving objects around and bouncing letters the best that we can do as an example? Now compare that to the best people can do with Flash. HTML5 options and HTML5 tools have a long, LONG way to go to match the creative versatility of Flash options and Flash tools.

And still, even with these simple abilities to move boxes, bounce text, fade in and fade out, etc, put any of that on your business website as the sole way to make those things happen and only a tiny little group of people will be able to see them today. If you want the much, MUCH greater world to also see those effects, you'll have to ALSO create versions in something like Flash... which for business means double the work, double the time, double the cost, etc. And, oh yeah, you can do so much more with the Flash version than anything and everything you can do with this tool.

I realize it's easy for the "Apple is always right" crowd to go with the flow. But the practicalities of this are as inferred above. The magic wand conversion of all Flash to HTML5 would result in all that mixed media (much of which is not just ads or just video) being UNviewable to the vast majority of people connected to the web. If your website exists to help sell stuff, a pure conversion (jettison Flash, go with HTML5 only) means shrinking your target audience to a tiny fraction of people (mostly Apple & Chrome users) while sacrificing all kinds of niceties that Flash has long been able to do that HTML5 can't do yet.

HTML5 is the future. But that future is much further off than most here realize. While we Apple people are reasonably set up NOW for that future, most of the bigger world are far from it and won't immediately change their Internet hardware & software because "Steve says Flash is bad".

Personally, I don't love Flash or hate it. I'm in the business of helping companies sell their stuff to the world. Flash is a great tool for mixed media presentations that will run on just about everything out there including all Apple computing devices EXCEPT iDevices. HTML5 alternatives are relatively weak in comparison and definitely not an either (Flash) or (HTML5) alternative.

Bottom line: If business matters and one wants to offer mixed media presentations to iDevice owners too, the ONLY current and foreseeable future option is to create that media in BOTH (Flash & HTML5)... spending double the time & money to do so.
 
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1) This tool has nothing to do with HTML5, its rather HTML+JS+CSS3

2) Level of interactivity of HTML5 equals to Actionscript 1.0

3) CPU usage for complex HTML5 component easily equals to CPU usage for Flash


OK now that we put cleared out the path we can discuss why HTML5 and Flash will coexist for a long time together. Flash is seriously moving into 3D, HD Video, HD Audio and more importantly Web App Development. Flash 11 will be nice little breaktrough with Stage3D, 64bit support so you can finally start using those 64bit browsers and GPU accel accross the board.

And there is one more thing as well. If you want to stream your music or video on web you will still need Flash even in HTML5 environment because of DRM.
 
Congratulations. So to make the problem resolve favorable to the Apple-supporting answer you want to offer, you choose to just cut the head off of the big crowd to argue for the small minority? Do you do this for your clients if they say they want to reach as many people in the world as possible: "how about we ignore most of the people so that this will work for the smaller numbers with the latest & greatest browser technologies? Sure, only a small subset of the world will be able to see your offerings, but they are the "good" people, not old f*rts" (even if there are tons of those older people, many of which happen to have money to spend on consuming lots of products). And, by the way, we happen to sell an awful lot of product to the younger crowd who are using whatever browser came with their Windows computer, most of which is IE8 or earlier. There is not a HTML5-only option for them. Shall we just dump all those sales opportunities so that only the "good" prospects can see our offerings?






HTML5 is the future. But that future is much further off than most here realize. While we Apple people are reasonably set up NOW for that future, most of the bigger world are far from it and won't immediately change their Internet hardware & software because "Steve says Flash is bad".

Personally, I don't love Flash or hate it. I'm in the business of helping companies sell their stuff to the world. Flash is a great tool for mixed media presentations that will run on just about everything out there including all Apple computing devices EXCEPT iDevices. HTML5 alternatives are relatively weak in comparison and definitely not an either (Flash) or (HTML5) alternative.

Bottom line: If business matters and one wants to offer mixed media presentations to iDevice owners too, the ONLY current and foreseeable future option is to create that media in BOTH (Flash & HTML5)... spending double the time & money to do so.

Well we are actually closer to each other in this argument than one might believe.

I HATE flash, true, but I DO NOT hate Adobe. Flash is a decent tool (I don't say great, but it's good)... there are some flash things I really enjoy, like I said before.

You are right, HTML5 is the future, and like I said, WHATWG says it's still over 3 years off until it's fully "ready".... so it's got awhile. I say another 5 probably until it's widely used.... it takes the masses a LONG time to implement new technology.

As far as a "apple-supporting" answer... you def. missed the point there. I support apple, yes... does this have anything to do with apple... nope. Not even close. Apple was never even brought up, until you mentioned it. I don't even use Safari on any of my machines (which are all apple). The answer has to do with Flash. Like I said, if client comes to me, and wants flash, I send him elsewhere... I don't enjoy doing it, nor do I want to do it, and again, as the business owner, it's my prerogative to pick my own work (I am the only employee, I work for myself, and own the company).... I do just fine without the flash work. As far as IE8, it displays a lot of HTML correct... it screws up on some of the CSS for HTML5.

Either way, I am anti-flash (that will never change, I've been around it WAY to long now, I have formed my opinion and stick by it)... but I am not anti-adobe. I am pro-apple 85% of the time, but they do tons I dislike as well.

I am though, PRO-HTML5 for sure... I support it fully, use it fully, and will continue to learn it as it grows. Eventually, awhile down the road, it will be the norm... of course, this is years away.

I am also VERY PRO-EDGE, and I hope adobe does it will, I look forward to using it.
 
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1) This tool has nothing to do with HTML5, its rather HTML+JS+CSS3

2) Level of interactivity of HTML5 equals to Actionscript 1.0

3) CPU usage for complex HTML5 component easily equals to CPU usage for Flash


OK now that we put cleared out the path we can discuss why HTML5 and Flash will coexist for a long time together. Flash is seriously moving into 3D, HD Video, HD Audio and more importantly Web App Development. Flash 11 will be nice little breaktrough with Stage3D, 64bit support so you can finally start using those 64bit browsers and GPU accel accross the board.

And there is one more thing as well. If you want to stream your music or video on web you will still need Flash even in HTML5 environment because of DRM.

You contradict yourself with #1.

HTML+JS+CSS etc IS HTML5... HTML5 (as in JUST the html, is just that... called HTML)... folks mix up the terms quite often.
 
Naive & rolleyes eh.

They're not throwing away money when there's demand, and they have paying customers. They sell the bulk of their apps in bundles anyway, and charge for dot releases.

If others can do it, adobe can do it. At the time, they didn't want HTML5, CSS3, & JavaScript to compete with flash and ActionScript. Now they have no choice. These standards have taken off, and smaller devs are filling the gaping hole adobe tried to pretend didn't exist.

You think a big dev would be throwing away money by staying ahead of the curve in an emerging market, and I'm naive?

I work for a big software developer, and I can tell from your responses you don't have any experience in this area.

A big developer can afford to keep a skunkworks project off in a corner; but once a product gets released into the wild, the cost of supporting it is astronomical, and much more so if frequent releases and rewrites are required. Small devs with 100 end-users and a guy answering user e-mails from the next cube don't face anything like the challenges of a big software company, where even a Beta release results in 10,000 downloads and 1000 calls to tier 1 support.
 
Adobe should have done this a long time ago. It would have been much better for them to have just gone "Actually, you're right... Flash is kind of crappy. Let's embrace HTML5". They just chose the hard way. They've ended up going down the HTML5 road anyway.

oh yes... flash is sooo crappy... aswell as all the morons that build sites and flash experiences for these companies: (to name a few)

http://www.thebicwall.com/
http://www.nike.com/jumpman23/BCT/
http://axe.de/archiv/elvis/index_us_en.html
http://anewwarrior.greenpeace.org/
http://www.audi-a8.in/

html and flash are supposed to complement each other... is not a competition... use your brains for once.
 
I work for a big software developer, and I can tell from your responses you don't have any experience in this area.

A big developer can afford to keep a skunkworks project off in a corner; but once a product gets released into the wild, the cost of supporting it is astronomical, and much more so if frequent releases and rewrites are required. Small devs with 100 end-users and a guy answering user e-mails from the next cube don't face anything like the challenges of a big software company, where even a Beta release results in 10,000 downloads and 1000 calls to tier 1 support.

Forget it, he can't even provide decent examples of "others" doing it any sooner than Adobe and he doesn't understand software development, being like he says "A user of Adobe products" (ie, a graphics artist). He's just here to spread his Adobe hate.
 
People need to get over this stupid "flash is teh sux0r" argument.

Firstly, Adobe have been making professional grade tools for years and years, they know how to do this and have been incredibly successfully doing this.

Secondly, they are one of very few big devs even bothering to bring professional standard HTML5 tools to the market. HTML5 isn't even fully accepted as an industry standard and yet Adobe are doing this? Talk about innovation! If Apple were in Adobe's place, you'd be crowing it from the roof tops!

Thirdly, (and this isn't even relevant - it just riles me to see so many fanboys) millions and millions of people use flash everyday without a problem. You know how many times friends and family have said that they were having problems with flash? Zero. Its not a big deal for the average consumer, they know and like flash.

Can you please get over the irrational flash hatred? Adobe are a massive company and are doing great things in this field.
 
oh yes... flash is sooo crappy... aswell as all the morons that build sites and flash experiences for these companies: (to name a few)

http://www.thebicwall.com/
http://www.nike.com/jumpman23/BCT/
http://axe.de/archiv/elvis/index_us_en.html
http://anewwarrior.greenpeace.org/
http://www.audi-a8.in/

html and flash are supposed to complement each other... is not a competition... use your brains for once.

I actually hope you aren't being sarcastic.... those sites are total failures of what flash is suppose to be...they are FULLY built using flash... they aren't enhancing HTML, they are entire flash sites... rendering them useless to anybody without flash... those are PERFECT examples of how NOT to use flash. It's meant to be a complimentary piece of software, making sites amazing.... not useless.

Also, whoever designed those sites decided it was flash or nothing, there is no fallback... again, a HORRIBLE coding/design choice.
 
You know when hardware review sites do separate "internet browsing" benchmarks and "internet browsing w/ flash" benchmarks, that something is horribly wrong with flash.

At least Adobe seems to be getting on the bandwagon and is transitioning away from flash and towards html5. This is good news for consumers. I was worried Adobe was going to go down kicking and screaming over flash.
 
You are right, HTML5 is the future, and like I said, WHATWG says it's still over 3 years off until it's fully "ready".... so it's got awhile. I say another 5 probably until it's widely used.... it takes the masses a LONG time to implement new technology.

While I hope you are right about these time estimates, I don't see how 3 or 5 years will get the job done. In checking stats for our site and our clients sites, I still see a decent share of people (aka buyers) using pre-IE6 browsers, the earliest versions of Firefox, even a few Netscape holdouts. You agree that IE8 "screws up on some of the CSS for HTML5" and yet it continues to dominate as the browser of current choice for our own website visitors (aka buyers) and almost all of our client's users (aka buyers). If you follow the migration trends of people upgrading from one version of a browser to another, you know that the crowd is still concentrated in generations 1-2+ versions back... you know, those versions that "screw up on some of the CSS for HTML5", so you also know that all the "wow"(?) output of nice tools like this Adobe Edge will NOT work for them, so if your client wants that wow to also show for those much larger audiences (aka much larger pools of BUYERS), you'll have to ALSO create a version in Flash. Or, you can turn away that business (it sounds like you do) and/or try to convince your clients that they shouldn't aim for the massive pool of buyers, but only the little pool that can see the wonders of HTML5+CSS3+javascript. Maybe your clients should come to us, as we'll help them show mixed media to EVERYONE (all "buyers") not just the little pool that can currently see HTML5+CSS3+javascript.

Lastly, there's nothing wrong with YOU being anti-Flash. That is your call. But just because you've made that call doesn't make it right for all. I'm not anti-Flash or pro-Flash, anti Adobe/Amazon/Samsung/HTC/etc or pro. I am in the business of helping companies sell their stuff to the world. And on this topic, if part of that sell involves a need for some kind of interesting mixed-media for their website (not just ads and not just video), it is ABSOLUTE FACT that a Flash version will be able to be seen/heard/used by far, FAR more people (aka buyers) than an HTML5 version. Unfortunately, because Apple has chosen for it's customers (rather than allowing them to choose for themselves), the only option that ALSO covers the iDevice crowd requires efforts to duplicate a Flash media solution as good as possible in some piece of HTML5 (resulting in double the work, time & cost).

It is also ABSOLUTE FACT that HTML5 is far from being able to replicate what we've been able to do in Flash for many years, and I seriously doubt those deficiencies will get resolved in 3 or 5 more years. Right now, HTML5 can't even settle on a single video codec and the audio standards are sparse. The solution to try to work around the lack of settled standards is a lot of code-branching to cover various browsers and browser versions, which, by it's very nature, is a very NONstandard way of making things happen for the crowd.

Since you're a fan of "one line of code", the Flash mixed-media solution is just a few lines of code and just about everyone (aka buyers) on the planet will be able to see the mixed media presentation. That includes us Apple people- just not the segment of us Apple people trying to browse with iDevices (Steve says no and we comply). With HTML5 "as is", you have to inject either-or options to accomplish something similar and then still back it all up with a Flash option if you truly want the same buyer reach. I hope 3 to 5 more years completely resolves that pain, but I seriously doubt it, when it is easy to see that large crowds of people (buyers) are still using HTML5-incapable browser generations that are 2-3+ versions back.

Nevertheless, I'll hope with you. A standard for the many is better than dual "standards". I hope HTML5 gets that far that fast.
 
While I hope you are right about these time estimates, I don't see how 3 or 5 years will get the job done. In checking stats for our site and our clients sites, I still see a decent share of people (aka buyers) using pre-IE6 browsers, the earliest versions of Firefox, even a few Netscape holdouts. You agree that IE8 "screws up on some of the CSS for HTML5" and yet it continues to dominate as the browser of current choice for our own website visitors (aka buyers) and almost all of our client's users (aka buyers). If you follow the migration trends of people upgrading from one version of a browser to another, you know that the crowd is still concentrated in generations 1-2+ versions back... you know, those versions that "screw up on some of the CSS for HTML5", so you also know that all the "wow"(?) output of nice tools like this Adobe Edge will NOT work for them, so if your client wants that wow to also show for those much larger audiences (aka much larger pools of BUYERS), you'll have to ALSO create a version in Flash. Or, you can turn away that business (it sounds like you do) and/or try to convince your clients that they shouldn't aim for the massive pool of buyers, but only the little pool that can see the wonders of HTML5+CSS3+javascript. Maybe your clients should come to us, as we'll help them show mixed media to EVERYONE (all "buyers") not just the little pool that can currently see HTML5+CSS3+javascript.

Lastly, there's nothing wrong with YOU being anti-Flash. That is your call. But just because you've made that call doesn't make it right for all. I'm not anti-Flash or pro-Flash, anti Adobe/Amazon/Samsung/HTC/etc or pro. I am in the business of helping companies sell their stuff to the world. And on this topic, if part of that sell involves a need for some kind of interesting mixed-media for their website (not just ads and not just video), it is ABSOLUTE FACT that a Flash version will be able to be seen/heard/used by far, FAR more people (aka buyers) than an HTML5 version. Unfortunately, because Apple has chosen for it's customers (rather than allowing them to choose for themselves), the only option that ALSO covers the iDevice crowd requires efforts to duplicate a Flash media solution as good as possible in some piece of HTML5 (resulting in double the work, time & cost).

It is also ABSOLUTE FACT that HTML5 is far from being able to replicate what we've been able to do in Flash for many years, and I seriously doubt those deficiencies will get resolved in 3 or 5 more years. Right now, HTML5 can't even settle on a single video codec and the audio standards are sparse. The solution to try to work around the lack of settled standards is a lot of code-branching to cover various browsers and browser versions, which, by it's very nature, is a very NONstandard way of making things happen for the crowd.

Since you're a fan of "one line of code", the Flash mixed-media solution is just a few lines of code and just about everyone (aka buyers) on the planet will be able to see the mixed media presentation. That includes us Apple people- just not the segment of us Apple people trying to browse with iDevices (Steve says no and we comply). With HTML5 "as is", you have to inject either-or options to accomplish something similar and then still back it all up with a Flash option if you truly want the same buyer reach. I hope 3 to 5 more years completely resolves that pain, but I seriously doubt it, when it is easy to see that large crowds of people (buyers) are still using HTML5-incapable browser generations that are 2-3+ versions back.

Nevertheless, I'll hope with you. A standard for the many is better than dual "standards". I hope HTML5 gets that far that fast.

Hopefully it does... it would be amazing. As it stands now, I use HTML5 standards and then on certain sites/pages, if it's warranted, I will make a second copy with different code that will work in older browsers.... this is for clients of course, depending on what they are trying to do with their site. My personally stuff, I don't. I know my audience, and what I'm after. If you're on a crazy outdated browser, I'm not after you.

But I have one client in particular, who makes radio parts for UAV's in the military.... for some reason unknown to me, it seems like every corporate person uses IE6 OR IE7 lol... so when I made his 72 page website... there was a LOT of double coding to get things how they wanted, because they wanted HTML5 standards, yet to be seen on older browsers.

One thing they did not have nor want was any flash, so that factor was gone from the get go.... I didn't talk them out of that, they requested it, which I actually found odd. It amazed me how up-to-date they were with HTML5 standards, yet they still used IE6-IE8 a lot. Was def. interesting.

In this instance, I actually tried talking them out of HTML5 standards, as the audience they were after, it didn't make much sense.

I mean in reality, it's not that hard to make another style sheet to accommodate IE
 
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You contradict yourself with #1.

HTML+JS+CSS etc IS HTML5... HTML5 (as in JUST the html, is just that... called HTML)... folks mix up the terms quite often.

No its not. HTML5 integrates only some portions of JS, it doesn't use everything. So saying HTML+JS+CSS3 is quite more accurate since you don't actually need a HTML5 certified browser to do some stuff like you can in Edge.
 
I'm not sure what point it is that you're making here; HTML5 is markup, it's not interactive. The interactivity (such as it is) comes from JS+CSS(+DOM), i.e. good old 'DHTML'.

Again HTML5 as standard does not incorporate all of JS as part of the standard.
 
I mean in reality, it's not that hard to make another style sheet to accommodate IE

I wish it was that easy. Of course, I'm talking about mixed-media (blends of animation, narration, sound, video, etc- often with interactive options for the viewer) rather than what can be accomplished with just another style sheet for page design.

Again, it's great that your target market is HTML5 ready now. And it's also great that you don't limit your customers to that same market (as it is relatively tiny). But, as you shared, lots of people cling to <IE9, including 6 & 7 which are very UNfriendly to the HTML5 "standard". If one wants their business site to sell to all people, HTML5 is only an option for a small group. The developer must also weave in other options to serve the vast majority of buyers. If they want more than just static pages & bland content- for example, they want mixed media to better showcase their offerings- the easy, farthest reaching option is the one that's been working for a decade+: Flash. Yes, that mixed media won't play on iDevices (because Apple decided for its users rather than letting them choose for themselves), but iDevice users are a very small subset of all buyers everywhere. If the business also wants to reach them too, they're forced by the same (Apple) decision to try to somewhat duplicate the Flash presentation in HTML5 options (at more cost and more time).

I just don't see that changing in 3 or 5 or maybe even 10+ years. But I'll be hopeful that things will eventually return to "standards" that will work for about 95%+ of the web audience, instead of the fragmented situation we're now in (and will likely remain for a good long time to come).
 
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I work for a big software developer, and I can tell from your responses you don't have any experience in this area.

A big developer can afford to keep a skunkworks project off in a corner; but once a product gets released into the wild, the cost of supporting it is astronomical, and much more so if frequent releases and rewrites are required. Small devs with 100 end-users and a guy answering user e-mails from the next cube don't face anything like the challenges of a big software company, where even a Beta release results in 10,000 downloads and 1000 calls to tier 1 support.

I'm not a developer. You've totally figured me out. Great.

So, we can assume then that adobe will go under, now that this app is in beta testing? They're going to lose so much money that it wasn't even worth it to start? A feat that would have been extra more impossible for them even a year ago?

So, why then, are they doing it now?
 
Forget it, he can't even provide decent examples of "others" doing it any sooner than Adobe and he doesn't understand software development, being like he says "A user of Adobe products" (ie, a graphics artist). He's just here to spread his Adobe hate.

I provided you with a link a few pages back. Others have mentioned it repeatedly. So, either you're slow, or just baiting me. Either way, it's pretty weak. Here it is again:

http://www.tumultco.com/Hype/ - $30

And yeah, I'm only a digital artist. Do you know who adobe sells apps to?

http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/mastercollection.html

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I hate adobe. They could have done this earlier. If it really gets under your skin that I think that, then it's time to unplug and go outside.
 
I provided you with a link a few pages back. Others have mentioned it repeatedly. So, either you're slow, or just baiting me. Either way, it's pretty weak. Here it is again:

http://www.tumultco.com/Hype/ - $30

Hum... again, that was released May 23rd 2011. Hardly an example of "Adobe being late" and "other devs having made tons of money". These guys were no faster than Adobe in adopting HTML5 and making tools for it. :rolleyes:

Maybe I'll need to repeat that again for you ? How long do you plan to sticking to this example that doesn't even come close to backing up the claims you've made against Adobe ?

And yeah, I'm only a digital artist. Do you know who adobe sells apps to?

http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/mastercollection.html

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I hate adobe. They could have done this earlier. If it really gets under your skin that I think that, then it's time to unplug and go outside.

What gets under my skin the most is that you pretend to know something about writing software, when you in fact don't. I told you, Adobe really didn't have an incentive to do this earlier, not because of Flash or anything else, but because like any other purveyor of development tools, the HTML5 standard just wasn't ready for it.

You have yet to show me an example of a tool provided earlier. The reason you can't is simple : it wasn't viable to invest in the development of such tools with the state of the HTML5 standard before. The standard only stabilized the Canvas API very recently (less than a year or two) and writing these tools takes time. Doing it any earlier would have meant a lot of extra costs in supporting a moving target.

That's what gets under my skin, that you keep mentionning things that make no sense. You blame Adobe for something that wasn't under their control : the state of the HMTL5 standards themselves.
 
W3C or WHATWG....


discuss!

Different entities with different naming conventions for the standards that fit under the wide "HTML5" misnomer umbrella. What's to discuss ? This can only lead to confusion...

http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-app...-do-the-whatwg-and-w3c-specifications-differ?
1.1.1 How do the WHATWG and W3C specifications differ?

The features present in both the WHATWG and W3C specifications are specified using identical text, except for the following (mostly editorial) differences:

* The W3C HTML specification refers to the technology as HTML5, rather than just HTML.
* Examples that use features from HTML5 are not present in the W3C specifications since the W3C specifications are published as HTML4 due to W3C publication policies.
* The W3C HTML specification defines conformance for documents in a more traditional (version-orientated) way, because of a working group decision from March 2011. This specification, in part driven by its versionless development model, instead uses a conformance definition that more closely models how specifications are used in practice.
* The W3C HTML specification omits a paragraph of implementation advice because of a working group decision from June 2010.
* The W3C HTML specification includes a paragraph of advice redundant with the ARIA specifications because of a working group decision from March 2011.
* The W3C HTML specification gives incomplete advice regarding the alt attribute and instead references other documents on the matter because of a working group decision from March 2011.
* The W3C HTML specification includes a link to an incomplete document that contradict this specification because of a working group decision from Februray 2011.
* The W3C HTML specification has different prose regarding the use of tables for layout purposes because of a working group decision from March 2011. In contrast, this specification unambiguously disallows the use of table elements for layout purposes.
* The W3C HTML specification requires authors who are writing HTML e-mails with images to people they know can see the images (e.g. a wife sending her husband photos of their child) to nonetheless include textual alternatives to those images, because of a working group decision from April 2011.
* The W3C HTML specification does not state that the img element's alt attribute is its fallback content, because of a working group decision from April 2011.
* The W3C HTML specification is missing a clause that requires conformance checkers to discourage cargo-cult accessibility authoring because of a working group chair decision from May 2011.
* The W3C HTML specification is missing some conformance constraints that would make documents misusing canvas invalid, because of a working group chair decision from June 2011.
* The W3C 2D Context specification has a different API for handling focus and selection in the 2D canvas API, because of a working group chair decision from May 2011.
 
Hum... again, that was released May 23rd 2011. Hardly an example of "Adobe being late" and "other devs having made tons of money". These guys were no faster than Adobe in adopting HTML5 and making tools for it.

What gets under my skin the most is that you pretend to know something about writing software, when you in fact don't. I told you, Adobe really didn't have an incentive to do this earlier, not because of Flash or anything else, but because like any other purveyor of development tools, the HTML5 standard just wasn't ready for it.

I don't write software. I should have said that long ago...but we all know I don't.

I don't write software.

Two guys wrote an app that apparently couldn't have been built before them by adobe, but adobe's works just like theirs.

Some guy writing opinions online shouldn't get under your skin. What's at stake here? What are you regulating? You have nothing better to do with your time? You can't rest until I've been put in my place?

I believe they wanted to position flash as a mobile standard, and if/when it failed, as it clearly is, they would relent and do what they're doing now. They promoted the ability to build mobile apps with flash, claimed it was an open standard...which it isn't, etc. In a couple years, we'll see where all the chips fall. If flash lives, fine. I'm not going to lose any sleep over this. If you know more than me about software development, fine. I don't care. I know what I'll be using from this point forward. To each their own.

Edge is built on standards. Other developers can build competing products based on this same tech. Advantage: consumer & end user.

Flash is Director. Don't agree with me? Think I'm dumb? I don't care. That's what I think. You're just going to have to find a way to cope. (Probably by hurling insults. Whatever makes you feel relevant...)
 
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