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I run a Media ministry for our church and we use Flash exclusively for broadcasts and let me tell you the complaints I get from our viewers about how slow the plugins run and how choppy the video can be. All this due to poor Flash coding and not working the same across multiple platforms. In fact, once we put native mobile support in place, including iOS support the complaints went away.

Wait until you embrace HTML5 + CSS3 + Javascript exclusively. It will solve all of your problems because a very small group with Apple Or Google (Chrome), etc will be able to see it and the vast majority with just about everything else will see & hear nothing (because they still use IE6-8) etc. We just updated our website to try to include iDevices and found that even IE9 seems to have trouble with relatively basic CSS3 stuff like drop shadows.

Our little world here (we Apple people and iDevice users) is such a tiny little pool. If you are creating animations & media for the masses, there is no either-or (as in either HTML5 or Flash):
  • If you want the vast majority of the planet to be able to see your media, animations, etc, it must be done in Flash
  • if you want the minority (such as iDevice users) to be able to see it, you'll need a special version in HTML5 (but even then HTML5 is far from being able to do everything you can do in Flash)
  • And if you want them ALL to be able to see it, you have to spend the money & time on doing BOTH

We just went through this at our company and learned that even if any company wants to fully jettison Flash and solely go with HTML5 now, unless ALL of their audience is Apple, Google Chrome and a few others, you're saying goodbye to the vast majority of a world audience if you do that. HTML5 may be the future, but it's a distant future, and it offer NO possible replacement in the present for anyone desiring to reach all of the potential audience that Flash reaches.

Right now, the ONLY thing it does is creates a reason to spend more for double development to cover most of the world (Flash version) and the iDevice crowd (HTML5 version).
 
Oh man. I'm not much of a Flash and Adobe hater as some in the forum, but I'm not looking forward to seeing the markup and scripts produced by this thing!

Have you downloaded the app and given it a try? It creates nice and clean JSON objects that define the properties for jQuery to animate. The animation data is stored separately from the HTML...in fact Edge does not modify your existing HTML at all.
 
The first genuinely interesting offering from Adobe since the Flash bandwagon hit the buffers. Shows that they're taken the criticism/challenge seriously. Unfortunately, it looks like it's still burdened with the Adobe GUI (rather than deferring to OS/platform standards). And I bet they'll still shaft non-US/Canada customers, but you can't have everything, right?

Yeah sadly Adobe let Macromedia's XD team take over the UI of their products after the acquisition. Who knows when their app UI's will ever get nice again. Oh well they're usable, if not nice to look at.
 
That guy just lies through his teeth. His argument is that apples decision not to use flash is solely based on a business model decision. And that its not a technical issue. BUT THEN HE CANT EXPLAIN WHY FLASH SUCKS ON ANDROID.....

Hm, methinks either you are "lying through your teeth," or you have not seen an Android device.

I am so sick of every fanboy repeating the same "Flash sucks on Android" mantra Jobs feeds them, without actually trying it for themselves.

I have a Nexus S, which is a last generation chip and is hardly the most powerful Android device on the market (it's comparable to the iPhone 4). I can browse through Flash sites without a second thought -- I don't even think about it anymore. It "just works."

Also, if Apple is so hot to trot on HTML5, why doesn't it bring out the developer tools?

Or why doesn't Apple support HTML5 better in Safari, both in Mac OS and in iOS (both Google Chrome and Firefox have better HTML5 support)?

Adobe is the one major company which has invested in providing HTML5 tools.

The reality is that HTML5 will coexist with Flash for the foreseeable future, so Adobe will make money from both. HTML5 is way too primitive to replace Flash for complex animations.

Meanwhile, iOS will not have access to Flash, because Steve Jobs has made a BUSINESS DECISION to keep a competing product from the iOS ecosystem.

If that's O.K. for you, that's fine. But don't delude yourself that it is some sort of a technical problem, or that Steve is leading you to the "future."
 
I don't know if anyone else on the bottom of their screen has an ad saying "Create Free FLASH Websites"... but it was on mine and I thought it was quite ironic.

The hidden (added) irony is that there are lots and lots of cheap tools out there that allow programming neophytes to create mixed media animations and presentations that will render in Flash and thus play on more than 95% of all computers everywhere. Relatively, there are virtually NO such tools that will do the same in HTML5, and those that exist- such as this one- are thoroughly constrained in what they can do relative to what Flash can do. For example, notice in this presentation (even the professional ad shown in this video) that there was no coordinated sound. Why not? For those that know something about HTML5 (beyond "Apple says it's the future, so die Flash die!"), look it up. Look up how to coordinate- say- an audio track and maybe button presses with object interactions. That's crazy easy to do in Flash, and it will run (and sound) the same on just about all computing devices everywhere.

I do believe HTML5 is the future. I question when that future will arrive that Flash is fully made obsolete. My guess is that there will be several iDevice generations to buy, own and retire before we all get there... and even then, we'll need lots of people to let go of IE6, IE7 and IE8 if we want to still be able to serve animated, interactive media to the masses.
 
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Why do I feel we are going backward! Every example of html animation I've seen has been possible in flash for decades! Why replace flash!? Adobe should be improving FLASH.

HTML5 has such limited functionality with regards to animation. Websites should be HTML. Animations should be flash. Interactive animations should also be flash!

Adobe! sort something out before Flash dies a death. I've recently converted tiny flash files to oversize video so it plays on mobile and tablet devices. what a ridiculous scenario!

Because Apple said so. And when Apple speaks, most of the crowd here blindly follows. They'll pay no attention to the fact you share in that last paragraph, even though it is absolutely the truth. Too many here thinks Flash is nothing but a video format and that all that is needed is for all websites everywhere to run their Flash video through a converter and put it up as HTML5 video. But, if we could wave a magic wand to make that happen right now, we Apple product users would enjoy those converted videos, but most of the rest of the (much, MUCH bigger) world would be completely locked out (as they can't play HTML5 on their equipment as is).

Should all companies everywhere cater to our little tiny segment, or should they try to appeal to the billions of web-connected people that don't have HTML5 capable access? I know, I know: "BOTH", which is so easy to say, but not so easy, cheap or time-friendly to implement.
 
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Yeah sadly Adobe let Macromedia's XD team take over the UI of their products after the acquisition. Who knows when their app UI's will ever get nice again. Oh well they're usable, if not nice to look at.

Wait, what? Where did you get this information from? From everything I know, that's entirely untrue. In fact, for the last few CS releases the Photoshop team lead the UI designs. The Flash team had no ability to change the UI. And you may not know or remember, but prior to Adobe buying Macromedia, Adobe had sued Macromedia for having a similar panel interface. So Macromedia changed their UI, and it was MUCH better than Adobe's. When Adobe bought Macromedia, they forced their inferior UI on all of Macromedia's products.

However, I agree that Adobe is at the least lazy, and at the most a jerk for not making their products play more nicely with OS X.
 
Wait, what? Where did you get this information from? From everything I know, that's entirely untrue. In fact, for the last few CS releases the Photoshop team lead the UI designs. The Flash team had no ability to change the UI. And you may not know or remember, but prior to Adobe buying Macromedia, Adobe had sued Macromedia for having a similar panel interface. So Macromedia changed their UI, and it was MUCH better than Adobe's. When Adobe bought Macromedia, they forced their inferior UI on all of Macromedia's products.

However, I agree that Adobe is at the least lazy, and at the most a jerk for not making their products play more nicely with OS X.

There has been a lot of turnover and changes since the acquisition. But the management running experience design is in fact from the Macromedia side. They're a good company and most of the products are extremely solid. They could use some real icons however instead of the ridiculous table of elements concept.
 
Adobe! sort something out before Flash dies a death. I've recently converted tiny flash files to oversize video so it plays on mobile and tablet devices. what a ridiculous scenario!

Flash is already dying a slow death - look around. Yes it can do things that html 5 and Javascript can't. So what - i'm not using it anymore - after years of dealing with flash's god awful timeline, playback problems and preloading -. you think they could have built in or properly modularized preloading as it's a base need.

Glad that adobe is starting to pull their head our of their flash ass. Now only if they would pay proper attention to the Mac and release CS apps that run better and use os x more advanced ui guidelines, then their out of my dog house.

Buhbye flash
 
I was shocked to see no one had mentioned Tumult Hype.

Hype is amazing. I redesigned my web site with it and it's very easy to use. Great community and support. And, they're already working on an update. I'm glad to see Adobe get feedback from users.
 
I never said otherwise. In fact, I explained why HTML5 is a good thing vs Flash in this very thread. Also, you'll note that I just said that Adobe isn't late to developing HTML5, not that they were wrong to do it. I actually defended this as Adobe adopting HTML5 at the right time when the standard is just now starting to stabilize into something that implementors can run with.

Where did you get I had an emotional attachment to Flash ?

I reported the insult btw, it's against forum rules. Might want to just remove it from your post.

Ha. I took you calling me naive as an insult. You don't imply people are naive unless you're trying to be condescending. Lets not play any games here. However, I didn't feel the need to stir up any drama and "report" you to the authorities. It is what it is, and although the remark has been removed, it doesn't change a thing.

Adobe drug their feet because it was a competing tech. They're here now, so yay, but they could have done it sooner. Say what you will, it doesn't change the facts. Other devs beat them to it, despite it being a "moving target", and they made cash doing so. Adobe is a bloated monster. They're charging damn near full upgrade prices for a dot release only 10 months after CS5 shipped, and they only updated HALF the apps! Part of me thinks you just want to argue and put yourself in a position above others because you (probably) work in the industry. You're not the only one with an opinion, and you're not as right as you like to imagine you are.

HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript is (will be) enough to build and ship apps (canvas, offline, etc). It's enough to add the same type of animation and interactivity as flash. It runs on all mobile platforms, doesn't destroy batteries, and doesn't melt laptops. It's gaining momentum, and it's growing. In a few years, it'll be the clear standard, and it's truly open.

Flash, as it is now, is dead. It may take awhile, but it's going away.

http://mugtug.com/sketchpad/

http://www.devlounge.net/code/10-awesome-html5-canvas-examples

http://net.tutsplus.com/articles/web-roundups/21-ridiculously-impressive-html5-canvas-experiments/

http://mrdoob.com/projects/harmony/

etc.
 
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Ha. I took you calling me naive as an insult. You don't imply people are naive unless you're trying to be condescending. Lets not play any games here. However, I didn't feel the need to stir up any drama and "report" you to the authorities. It is what it is, and although the remark has been removed, it doesn't change a thing.

Adobe drug their feet because it was a competing tech. They're here now, so yay, but they could have done it sooner. Say what you will, it doesn't change the facts.

Sooner when ? The standard is still in draft form not and finalized. It's not even stable yet. Browser support isn't even complete and the most used browser platform, Internet Explorer, just joined in with version 9.

See, that's where you're getting ahead of yourself, to release this today, Adobe has it at it for a while already. And before that, HTML5 wasn't even stable enough or support widely enough in browsers to even try to implement anything.

Other devs beat them to it, despite it being a "moving target", and they made cash doing so.

Link to these HTML5 Canvas animation development tools please. That's twice I asked, twice you failed to provide any. Who are these devs that beat Adobe to it and are making cash ?


None of those are Canvas development tools really. They're examples of what can be accomplished with Canvas, but nothing of the scope of what is being discussed here.

Look, you're no software developer, that much is obvious. Drop the emotion and hate for a moment and realise that Adobe is a business, realise that HTML5 is not a finalized standard and realise that browser support is important to its adoption. This is what I meant by naive. You think Adobe could have done this sonner because you lack the basic understanding of the situation behind HTML5 and its adoption. Go find out about it and learn instead of hating.

Then we'll talk. Otherwise, you're just an emotional poster who's angry at Adobe because Apple said to be.
 
Hype was mentioned a couple of times

http://www.tumultco.com/hype/

http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/news/?newsid=3281391

Hardly a glowing example of "Adobe should have done this sooner" and "meanwhile other devs have made tons of cash" uh ? May 23rd 2011... Wow, a whole 2 months in advance ? Adobe is so late.

.... Also Sencha....
so:

http://www.sencha.com/

Sencha's HTML5+CSS3 Animator.... BETA 1 ?

http://www.sencha.com/products/animator/

Again... the claim was "Adobe could have done this sooner!" and "Devs made tons of cash while Adobe waited".

I still see no examples provided to back up such claims.

+ don't be rude. Thats why people don't answer your questions.

No, people don't answer my questions because usually I ask them knowing full well there is no answer to them or that the answer would contradict their position. They are mostly traps, meant for the other posters to realise that what they have stated is plainly wrong.

Most people however are afraid of admitting such and thus resort to anger and "you're rude" comments instead of plainly seeing what is laid before them : They made an ignorant comment and we're called on it. There is no rudeness in my posts, I simply point out the fallacies in the logic of some posters here instead of letting them go on and fill the forum with misinformation based on emotion for a legal entity, which defies logic in and of itself (why feel emotions towards corporations ?).
 
The blind hatred for Flash around here is a bit confusing. When HTML5 starts being used for heavy animations everywhere, people will curse it just as much. (I've been forced to make such things in HTML5 before -- it's not pretty. Things start to buckle when you've got complex, fullscreen animations going on.) As others have said, 90% of the time it is the people making the content, NOT the tool. Or people choosing the wrong tool for the job. There are places where HTML5 makes sense, and places where Flash makes sense. It's not a binary choice of existence. Both can co-exist. Adobe certainly thinks so. A lot of these anti-Flash cats sound like the guys who internet-rage in a Playstation vs. Xbox war. People who actually create content (and I am occasionally one of those) use whatever tool we think is best for the job. Sometimes we're forced to use what the client wants.

I'm not dissing "HTML5"; it's about time HTML started catching up with Flash. But Flash is so far ahead from a programming language & API point-of-view, HTML/Javascript always be playing catch-up. Especially since Adobe is not bound to a standards compliance body that is constantly in-fighting (go read up on the history of Javascript and realize it hasn't had a real update to the language in 10 YEARS because of corporate bickering). So I guess yes, I am dissing Javascript. It's stuck in the 90s. Terrible language. But I'm not dissing the concept around HTML5; that of adding APIs to allow for multimedia integration into web pages. It's just the execution of that concept that is a bit wonky right now. Unfortunately, the Javascript standards body is still as incapable as it ever was, so I don't see much improvement there. Web browsers can only strap so many rockets and nitrous packs on an '83 Honda before they run out of room.

Okay, first off, I'm not sure what you do for a living... I do web work. That right there is where my hatred for Flash comes from. I despise it. I'm not naive, I'm not a "noobie", I'm not a random person jumping on a bandwagon. I am a web consultant/designer.... I have worked with it every day for way to long now. To show you my true hatred for it, when I get a new client, if they want flash work, I pass them on and don't build their website. I dislike working with it that much. It is horrid on mobile devices as well.... and with the new craze on mobile, just about every client wants a mobile version of their site. I just don't like it... period. I dislike it's resource usage, I dislike it's cluttered look, I just dislike it. I guess that's my prerogative. I'm allowed to take on any job I want, as I own the company, and I don't take on flash jobs.

Here is another reason, and a lot of folks don't think this far I suppose... but I come from a "search engine optimization" (SEO) background. I am assuming you don't know a lot about SEO, as it seems most folks don't. I have studied it for years now.... I code in SEO best practices, as well as do much offsite SEO. Anyways... my point... have you ever tried to fully SEO a flash site? Once you do, you'll see my hatred for flash. It's getting better, much better, but still FAR behind non-flash sites.

Anyways, my hatred is not "blind" hatred... it's there for a reason. To be fair, there are some VERY cool flash websites out there, and VERY amazing flash animation (ninjai: the little ninja anyone? OMG google that and watch if you have never seen it!!!!)

Wait until you embrace HTML5 + CSS3 + Javascript exclusively. It will solve all of your problems because a very small group with Apple Or Google (Chrome), etc will be able to see it and the vast majority with just about everything else will see & hear nothing (because they still use IE6-8) etc. We just updated our website to try to include iDevices and found that even IE9 seems to have trouble with relatively basic CSS3 stuff like drop shadows.

Our little world here (we Apple people and iDevice users) is such a tiny little pool. If you are creating animations & media for the masses, there is no either-or (as in either HTML5 or Flash):
  • If you want the vast majority of the planet to be able to see your media, animations, etc, it must be done in Flash
  • if you want the minority (such as iDevice users) to be able to see it, you'll need a special version in HTML5 (but even then HTML5 is far from being able to do everything you can do in Flash)
  • And if you want them ALL to be able to see it, you have to spend the money & time on doing BOTH

We just went through this at our company and learned that even if any company wants to fully jettison Flash and solely go with HTML5 now, unless ALL of their audience is Apple, Google Chrome and a few others, you're saying goodbye to the vast majority of a world audience if you do that. HTML5 may be the future, but it's a distant future, and it offer NO possible replacement in the present for anyone desiring to reach all of the potential audience that Flash reaches.

Right now, the ONLY thing it does is creates a reason to spend more for double development to cover most of the world (Flash version) and the iDevice crowd (HTML5 version).

Well... all I can say as a web designer.... there is ONE, SINGLE, line of code you can put into your website source that will fix you IE9 issues you are having with CSS. One line.... maybe 20-30 characters long. That's it.

As far as the "vast majority" will never see your HTML5 site... I mean really... you are speaking of the folks using as far back as IE6... now, to be fair, you are right, that is a BIG chunk of people. But lets be realistic here... if I'm doing web design and hosting etc.... do you think those IE6 folks are my target audience? Should I waste my time and resources to appease them as well? They are an afterthought. Granted all of IE still makes up damn near 50% of internet browsers being used today... but in reality probably only a small handful of that 50% is my target audience. They are older folks most of the time, and computer/internet illiterate folks who are using whatever browser came pre-installed on their machines when they bought them.

You know who those folks are being targeted by? Ever seen those shotty computer virus commercials? That's their target audience because those IE6 people are running such outdated materials and probably aren't even sure how to properly protect their computers from viruses.

AFTERTHOUGHT

I am not a blind Adobe hater. I use CS5.5 daily for my job, EVERY DAY. I religiously work with illustrator and photoshop. They do things that other programs CANNOT do. I would love to ditch CS5.5 altogether, but I cannot. I tried pixelmator, and it's amazing, but their little slogan of "the photo editor for the rest of us" is not a lie.... it is not a professional grade photo editor. Have you ever tried opening up a EPS file in pixelmator? It's a disaster.

I just wanted to show I use adobe software daily, and I am not a blind adobe hater. I am however a FLASH hater.

I praise Adobe for making Adobe Edge and I will probably download it tonight and take it for a test run to see what it's all about.

As far as them doing it sooner... I dunno about that... they are still 3 years ahead of the curve as far as HTML5 goes.
 
Look, you're no software developer, that much is obvious. Drop the emotion and hate for a moment and realise that Adobe is a business, realise that HTML5 is not a finalized standard and realise that browser support is important to its adoption. This is what I meant by naive. You think Adobe could have done this sonner because you lack the basic understanding of the situation behind HTML5 and its adoption. Go find out about it and learn instead of hating.

Then we'll talk. Otherwise, you're just an emotional poster who's angry at Adobe because Apple said to be.

I don't care what Apple thinks. I've been using adobe's products (among others) professionally for 11 years. You talk, but you have no idea what your saying. But please, keep going.

You really think others "just don't get it", and that you actually have a duty to school people in web forums. You sound like you don't get out much. Judging by your activity on these boards, I'd say that's a pretty safe assessment. You're a developer? Who do you work for?

Call me what you want. Your need to frame me as an "emotional poser" speaks for itself.
 
No, people don't answer my questions because usually I ask them knowing full well there is no answer to them or that the answer would contradict their position. They are mostly traps, meant for the other posters to realise that what they have stated is plainly wrong.

Most people however are afraid of admitting such and thus resort to anger and "you're rude" comments instead of plainly seeing what is laid before them : They made an ignorant comment and we're called on it. There is no rudeness in my posts, I simply point out the fallacies in the logic of some posters here instead of letting them go on and fill the forum with misinformation based on emotion for a legal entity, which defies logic in and of itself (why feel emotions towards corporations ?).

Man, you really are delusional. You're pushing responsibility for all your fears on anyone who would engage you.

Who on earth would be "afraid" to answer to you? You're a guy sitting at a computer.
 
Man, you really are delusional. You're pushing responsibility for all your fears on anyone who would engage you.

Who on earth would be "afraid" to answer to you? You're a guy sitting at a computer.

Then answer me and provide a backup to your claim that "Adobe is late" and "other devs have made tons of money providing HTML5 tools" or admit you were wrong in your scournful comments towards Adobe. You have yet to do so, all your examples being not related to dev tools at all or recently released or Beta projects.

The fact is, HTML5 is new. Tools are going to be made. Adobe is going make them. No one is late to the game yet.
 
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