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Who cares about Flash?

I am constantly going to websites that I cannot view because the iPhone is lacking Flash player. You don't like Flash? Great, if there is something better out there, then competition will cause the better product to prevail. But for now, iPhone users are being deprived of THOUSANDS of Flash websites that other smartphone owners are able to view!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

Why is Apple blocking Flash? This is one for the FCC! Same reason that Microsoft used to block Netscape. Apple wants websites to use Apple software and not Flash. FAIL! It's a violation of free markets! Here comes a Netscape-Microsoft lawsuit in the Supreme Court, except this time with Flash-Apple.
 
So you think that Adobe is bad because CS3 does not run on Snow Leopard?

Think again.

CS3 has been published a long while ago, and Snow Leopard is brand new. A lot of system libraries have changed. I do not expect Windows 3.1 software to run correctly on Windows 7 either.

Are there any Mac developers out there?

Apple must have caused software vendors to rewrite their software a gazillion times:

- they switched from the 68K to the PowerPC to Intel
- they switched from OS9 to Carbon to Cocoa
- for Snow Leopard, if you want to run as a 64-bit app, you have to switch to the Cocoa libraries, and much of Carbon is deprecated.

Apples next OS will most likely drop Carbon altogether. I have written programs for the Mac for a long time now, and I have spent 75% of my productivity just rewriting my programs over and over again to adopt them to Apple's library changes.

Adobe is big, but I bet that many of their Mac programmers are busy just following Apple as they try to leave software vendors in the dust because they switch system libraries and CPUs at will. Did Microsoft ever do this? Yes, partly - they went from 16 to 32 to 64 bits. But I can still run the Reversi game that came with Windows 1.03 on Windows 7!

And you Java lovers - go to the Sun web site and install Java. Just try. I have not seen complaints that this is impossible.

This is not a technical issue. Every skilled team of programmers can make their software run on another platform. This is a battle of lawyers. Apple does not permit any bytecode execution engine (such as the Java and ActionScript VMs) to run on the iPhone. Period.
 
Frankly, the vast majority of users, and developers, and content providers, DO NOT care what you personally want, no matter how much you roll your eyes.

Flash is on virtually every computer on Earth, and pretty soon it will be on virtually every smart phone as well. Except the iPhone, of course.

Flash works very well, for the vast majority of users. The fact that Apple has not expended the minimum effort required to get Flash working more efficiently in OS X, is mostly problem for only those relatively few of us, who prefer to use Mac OS.

(In my testing on OS 10.6.1, Safari is by far the worst of all browsers at handling Flash: it pushes the CPU to 77%, while Firefox and Camino stay at less than 49%. Safari is also by far the worst on Windows 7, where on the same video it runs to almost 30% of CPU, while IE8 is at 1%, and Firefox and Chrome are at 4%.

The vast majority of users enjoy what Flash provides.

And, Flash does things which would be impossible, or very hard, or prohibitively expensive, to do with other currently available technologies, and deploy them for all browsers and systems.

So, I repeat: the rest of the world DOES NOT care, that you, and a handful of weird backroom guys, have an irrational hatred of Flash. Move on.

The bottom line is, if Apple doesn't get Flash on the iPhone, it will quickly lose market share to Android. It's a HUGE missing feature, bigger than cut/paste and turn-by turn navigation and mms rolled together, and you can bet it will be advertised as such.

I'm amazed that you investigated so heavily the CPU usage and yet STILL came to the wrong conclusion, that this is Apple's fault.

For the record, you're completely wrong that FLASH works well on anything but Windows PCs.

Did you not notice in those numbers that FLASH doesn't work well on ALL MACS ON ALL BROWSERS ??? And FLASH is the reason for crashes on both POWERPC and INTEL Macs, even brand new Macs, from what I'm reading in other threads here on MacRumors.

So, how again is this Apple's fault that FLASH doesn't work on any recent Apple platform, iPhone, PowerPC, or INTEL?

Because Adobe doesn't care and has written crappy software. It has nothing to do with Apple.
Not much else crashes any of my Macs, so how is this Apple's fault?

Can you imagine what would happen if Apple let the current version of FLASH on the iPhone and peoples' phones started crashing like their Apple Macs are now? It would be on FOX NEWS!
Apple's making the right call here. The ball is in Adobe's court to get it right first on Macs.
Then I'll insist Apple let FLASH on the iPhone, but not a day sooner.

And I will bet dollars to doughnuts that your Android prediction turns out wrong too, FLASH or no FLASH.

I am constantly going to websites that I cannot view because the iPhone is lacking Flash player. You don't like Flash? Great, if there is something better out there, then competition will cause the better product to prevail. But for now, iPhone users are being deprived of THOUSANDS of Flash websites that other smartphone owners are able to view!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

Why is Apple blocking Flash? This is one for the FCC! Same reason that Microsoft used to block Netscape. Apple wants websites to use Apple software and not Flash. FAIL! It's a violation of free markets! Here comes a Netscape-Microsoft lawsuit in the Supreme Court, except this time with Flash-Apple.

If FLASH is an epic fail on both INTEL and POWERPC Macs and with both Safari and Firefox on Macs, how the hell do you think it's going to do on the iPhone?

This is NOT Apple's problem in my opinion. Adobe has just dropped the ball.
If FLASH crashes on most people's Macs, how do you think it will fair on the iPhone, since it's mostly the same browser?

Please people, think before you put your feet in your mouths.
 
Don't just blame Adobe...blame apple too. It's a code/OS issue. It's works perfectly on PCs.

Ahh, the armchair programmers are out again. Exactly what is a "code/OS issue"?

Apple is not responsible for Adobes crappy code. The fact that it "works perfectly" on PCs is completely irrelevant. I can write a program that works well on Windows and a program that works crappy on OSX - how is that Apples fault?


Why is Apple blocking Flash? This is one for the FCC! Same reason that Microsoft used to block Netscape. Apple wants websites to use Apple software and not Flash. FAIL! It's a violation of free markets! Here comes a Netscape-Microsoft lawsuit in the Supreme Court, except this time with Flash-Apple.

Actually, Apple wants websites to use open standards such as HTML, which is not Apples software. Flash is proprietary and is certainly not a free market. You should cut down on the caffeine.
 
YouTube uses Flash and H.264.

Look... All I know is, if a HUGE, INTERNATIONAL company like Apple can pull off their website without it which gets millions and millions of hits every day and is very well designed and media rich, there is no excuse!

Actually, Apple wants websites to use open standards such as HTML, which is not Apples software. Flash is proprietary and is certainly not a free market. You should cut down on the caffeine.

is QuickTime an open standard?
 
Can you imagine what would happen if Apple let the current version of FLASH on the iPhone and peoples' phones started crashing like their Apple Macs are now? It would be on FOX NEWS!

But if it was on Fox, you just know they wouldn't be blaming apple or flash... they would blame Obama. :D
 
I'm amazed that you investigated so heavily the CPU usage and yet STILL came to the wrong conclusion, that this is Apple's fault.

For the record, you're completely wrong that FLASH works well on anything but Windows PCs.

Did you not notice in those numbers that FLASH doesn't work well on ALL MACS ON ALL BROWSERS ??? And FLASH is the reason for crashes on both POWERPC and INTEL Macs, even brand new Macs, from what I'm reading in other threads here on MacRumors.

So, how again is this Apple's fault that FLASH doesn't work on any recent Apple platform, iPhone, PowerPC, or INTEL?

Because Adobe doesn't care and has written crappy software. It has nothing to do with Apple.
Not much else crashes any of my Macs, so how is this Apple's fault?

Can you imagine what would happen if Apple let the current version of FLASH on the iPhone and peoples' phones started crashing like their Apple Macs are now? It would be on FOX NEWS!
Apple's making the right call here. The ball is in Adobe's court to get it right first on Macs.
Then I'll insist Apple let FLASH on the iPhone, but not a day sooner.

And I will bet dollars to doughnuts that your Android prediction turns out wrong too, FLASH or no FLASH.



If FLASH is an epic fail on both INTEL and POWERPC Macs and with both Safari and Firefox on Macs, how the hell do you think it's going to do on the iPhone?

This is NOT Apple's problem in my opinion. Adobe has just dropped the ball.
If FLASH crashes on most people's Macs, how do you think it will fair on the iPhone, since it's mostly the same browser?

Please people, think before you put your feet in your mouths.

Its epic fail on WinMO and Windows and Linux.
 
...
Did you not notice in those numbers that FLASH doesn't work well on ALL MACS ON ALL BROWSERS ??? And FLASH is the reason for crashes on both POWERPC and INTEL Macs, even brand new Macs, from what I'm reading in other threads here on MacRumors.

....

Please people, think before you put your feet in your mouths.

Uhm, you are a bit confused.

First, Flash works just fine on most modern Macs. The only noticeable issue I see is, that on a Mac Mini C2D 2.0GHz and a Mac Book C2D 2.0GHz the fans go crazy when viewing Flash.

The problem is, that Flash in OS X requires much higher CPU exertion, than Flash in Windows. But also, in my experience, running Flash in Safari pushes the CPU significantly harder, than running Flash in Firefox, Camino or even Chrome (which is also a Webkit browser.) See this post for exact numbers.

Which tells me, that Apple has done a poor job of getting Safari to work well with Flash.

In addition, even if Adobe is lazy, obtuse, incompetent, or whatever you want to believe they are, during all these years, Apple could have dedicated a competent employee, to guide Adobe and help make Flash work better on OS X. Any normal business would have made this effort, if they thought it was a problem worth investing in. But I bet, that Apple figures that most users don't even realize that there is a high CPU load, and of the once who do, at least some will be dumb enough to just blame Flash for everything.

BTW, Safari has major issues with Java stuff as well, and most Safari crashes I had in OS 10.5.x, were due to that, not Flash.

As to the iPhone, the issue is most likely Apple's reluctance to open the door to Flash apps competition to its own Applications Store. I am certain, that Apple will have Flash on the iPhone, once it starts losing sales to the new crop of Androids coming up.
 
The only "Open" Media standard is Vorbis and FLAC.

it was a rhetorical question is response to MacFly123 and Knightlie's arguments that apple only follows open standards, which still allow them to create a media rich website using only open standards, that QuickTime is not.

on a lighter note: this is one of my fav flash sites. as you can tell, it's built only with HTML, javascript and CSS :p
 
Uhm, you are a bit confused.


Which tells me, that Apple has done a poor job of getting Safari to work well with Flash.

That's like saying that Microsoft should make windows work better with iTunes... kinda backwards.

Given that Safari is the fastest browser out there, I think Apple has done their part. Adobe needs to step up, and optimize flash for osx.
 
Flash and Adobe are Evil!

We need to get developers to use open standards and flash is not!
Besides flash being a processor hog (bad code especially on the Mac) it is bad for search engines, it is bad for web standards, it is bad for design.

At one time it was the only way to get rich media and non-refresh dynamic content on the web. Now there are much better lower overhead, open, web standards based ways of doing this. Flash should go away!

Apple taking a stand against flash is good. All the internet needs now is a open standard video codec!

What we all need to do is educate / demand that web developers / sited eliminate flash and use open standards.

Personally I do not use sites that require flash for operability - one of my favorite hotel chains "upgraded" their site to a flash based reservation system - it looks great but is slow and un-reliable, - so I stopped staying there and emailed them telling them they lost a customer due to their bad flash based reservation system!

I disagree that people don't care about flash players. Plenty of sites out there use flash extensively and do not offer a non-flash version. Adding adobe flash capability to the iphone would make it that much better in my opinion. Just because apple doesn't want it, doesn't mean it's not useful. I for one believe that apple "sometimes" listens to it's users, and if enough people complain, apple will react. Think apps for the iphone (remember apple's stand, it's an ipod, not a computer), cut/paste and push service. Background apps seem to be the next barrier to be broken, why not flash?

As far as adobe and MS "holding back" web progression, the whole point of flash is that it is a tool that makes highly interactive media sites easier to accomplish.
 
Wrong - FAIL

Apple's website was thick with Flash and frames when the iPhone was first announced. It was the "real internet".

Steve Jobs deliberately stayed away from displaying the Apple website on an iPhone for months... because Safari couldn't display it correctly, if at all.

At the time, I noted online what he was doing, and commented that Apple was going to have to totally redesign their website before the iPhone went on sale.

And so they did.

Apple never used flash for anything more than simple animated ads on their site! And moved away from that to Quicktime based video. If you were seeing Flash it was because you were on a PC with out quicktime and the Apple site was falling back to flash!

Flash is evil it is not searchable, it is a black stain on the open web!
 
That's like saying that Microsoft should make windows work better with iTunes... kinda backwards.

Given that Safari is the fastest browser out there, I think Apple has done their part. Adobe needs to step up, and optimize flash for osx.

Well, if iTunes was a plugin, used by virtually 100% of the world's computer users, then Microsoft would care enough, to ensure that it ran well on its platform.

Apple has been fairly hostile to Flash, and has obviously not cared enough, to ensure that Flash performs well on its platform.

And as far as Safari being the fastest browser, you believe in ads way too much. Safari is the most inefficient of the major browsers with Flash, and it has some serious issues with Java. It takes it about three times longer to load my iGoogle page, than either Camino or Firefox.

After I did my tests with Flash (see my post above), I finally changed from having Safari as the default browser, to Firefox 3.6 Beta, on all my Macs, as well as on my HTPC (W7). Safari has a great UI, IMO, but I actually customized Firefox to look just like Safari, so I am happy.

But if my iPhones 3GS don't get Flash in the next few months, through jailbreaking or officially, I'll be looking carefully at some of the new Androids with the enormous screens soon.

I love Apple, I love their design. But I already switched to Windows for my Home Theater box, after realizing that Apple would never deliver what I wanted, and I'll switch my phones even easier, if my Internet experience is crippled, because of the lack of Flash.
 
it was a rhetorical question is response to MacFly123 and Knightlie's arguments that apple only follows open standards, which still allow them to create a media rich website using only open standards, that QuickTime is not.

on a lighter note: this is one of my fav flash sites. as you can tell, it's built only with HTML, javascript and CSS :p

I never claimed QuickTime was open. I simply stated that Apple can very ably develop a huge robust website WITHOUT FLASH!

No, QuickTime is not open, but Apple heavily invests in pushing open standards online as well as in a lot of their products!
 
Give me a break

So you think that Adobe is bad because CS3 does not run on Snow Leopard?

Think again.

CS3 has been published a long while ago, and Snow Leopard is brand new. A lot of system libraries have changed. I do not expect Windows 3.1 software to run correctly on Windows 7 either.

Are there any Mac developers out there?

Whats your point here?
You state old software wouldn't run on a new OS yet you go off and rant in the rest of your post.

Apple must have caused software vendors to rewrite their software a gazillion times:

- they switched from the 68K to the PowerPC to Intel


Software vendors writing their software gazillion times...please.

Apple made it easier for software vendors.
When going to intel from PPC,software vendors were freaking out that their software wouldn't run.Guess what,Apple came out with Rosetta.There was no problems


- they switched from OS9 to Carbon to Cocoa
- for Snow Leopard, if you want to run as a 64-bit app, you have to switch to the Cocoa libraries, and much of Carbon is deprecated.


Apples next OS will most likely drop Carbon altogether. I have written programs for the Mac for a long time now, and I have spent 75% of my productivity just rewriting my programs over and over again to adopt them to Apple's library changes.

Woah Carbon was for OS9 Developers

And with OS X,Apple has carbon and cocoa.
They had theses 2 API for such a long time,they should I just went to Cocoa years ago but no they stuck with 2 to help the software developers.
Besides Carbon is crap,only argument carbon developers used was
"Well the Finder.App was made in carbon so carbon is a better then cocoa"
lol

Adobe is big, but I bet that many of their Mac programmers are busy just following Apple as they try to leave software vendors in the dust because they switch system libraries and CPUs at will.

Only thing here thats valid if the company develops in carbon.
And for Poor adobe thats the case.

Maybe at this point adobe CS5 can actually be we-written from scratch instead of adding extra code to a already horrible broken coded program which is what Adobe being doing for the past couple of years.
 
We need to get developers to use open standards and flash is not!...
...
What we all need to do is educate / demand that web developers / sited eliminate flash and use open standards.

Yeah!!! You forgot the part about world peace and end of hunger....

Personally I do not use sites that require flash for operability - one of my favorite hotel chains "upgraded" their site to a flash based reservation system - it looks great but is slow and un-reliable, - so I stopped staying there and emailed them telling them they lost a customer due to their bad flash based reservation system!

Yeah!!! You against the world! I suppose you also write to fashion magazines, complaining that all their models have perfect, skinny bodies....

But all kidding aside, without Flash, you must be having a pretty poor and limited web experience. Or, you just hang out on the Apple site.... :D
 
Yeah!!! You forgot the part about world peace and end of hunger....



Yeah!!! You against the world! I suppose you also write to fashion magazines, complaining that all their models have perfect, skinny bodies....

But all kidding aside, without Flash, you must be having a pretty poor and limited web experience. Or, you just hang out on the Apple site.... :D

So, let me get this straight.
You are for:
Sloppy code, anorexia, bulimia, and famine.

And you are against:
Apple and world peace.

Good choice.
 
I like this debate. :p

Bottom line, people in here that don't think Flash is bad and holding back web progression are either uneducated, or misinformed PERIOD!

It is as simple as that. That is all I have to say! :rolleyes: Sorry guys.
 
Apple never used flash for anything more than simple animated ads on their site! And moved away from that to Quicktime based video. If you were seeing Flash it was because you were on a PC with out quicktime and the Apple site was falling back to flash!

Flash is evil it is not searchable, it is a black stain on the open web!

Learn about it before you bash it. Flash IS searchable (Google something with "filetype:swf" to show only results occurring in SWF files). It's also deep-linkable (see greenplanetsearch.com). It's used for much more than ads (see pandora.com and youtube.com). Anyone who's taken a Flash class knows that its easy to detect the FlashPLayer, so non-flash content can be served up in the absence of the FlashPlayer.

Wake up: it isn't 1998 anymore: Flash is a full-fledged OOP environment now!
 
Like Flash or hate Flash, the fact remains that Flash enabled web site have a major prevalence on the web. I hate the fact that I should have the most technologically available device, but don't just because Apple won't allow Flash - which they could easily allow.

Politics and a pissing contest between Apple and Adobe and I have to suffer. Jobs is just trying to push for his own web app. But there is a jailbreak Flash app. Jobs may not put customers' desires at the top of his list, but DevTeam does.
 
Like Flash or hate Flash, the fact remains that Flash enabled web site have a major prevalence on the web. I hate the fact that I should have the most technologically available device, but don't just because Apple won't allow Flash - which they could easily allow.

Politics and a pissing contest between Apple and Adobe and I have to suffer. Jobs is just trying to push for his own web app. But there is a jailbreak Flash app. Jobs may not put customers' desires at the top of his list, but DevTeam does.

Setting aside wether or not they "could easily allow" with all their various carrier agreements and such. Flash is just a bloated buggy hog that will make the iphone run badly. Apple won't allow that. And they shouldn't.
Flash needs to be rewritten from the ground up. Optimized to work with OS X and the iPhone OS (which is a version of osx). Maybe then Apple will let it on the iPhone.
 
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