Advice Regarding Spanking

[Applespider]

If you truely think that a "single slap to shock" is harmless and a good form of discipline then maybe you should suggest to your boss that he introduces it to your workplace.

Read the rest of my posts. I said 'rarely given' slaps weren't the same as a beating. I also said that slaps shouldn't be part of the regular enforcement cycle when setting boundaries and gave better examples. The last resort punishment in a workplace is dismissal with loss of earnings. I doubt a slap would work better than that threat.

I have slapped a child once - and to be fair, I'd describe it as more of a tap with two fingers across the back of his hand rather than a full handslap across the rear. In that instance, I had tried distraction with other toys, I'd tried some quiet time, I'd tried stories, I'd tried explanations of the danger. He was fascinated by the oven and he'd wriggle on down and head back for the oven. Since I was baking, it was on and it was hot. I put a video on which he settled down in front of and turned to the fridge to get him his promised juice. I turned back to find him stretching out towards the hot oven door.

Under those circumstances, I 'slapped' his wrist and told him that I'd told him not to do that again. He looked shocked but didn't cry - and we went back to the sofa with the juice and watched his video. And later, he helped ice the cakes. In those circumstances, I'd do the same again since in my mind, a painful burn would have been a greater evil than that 'slap'.

 

[The Mad Kiwi]

Do you have any children? A single slap is a very good way to get the attention of the child. Just the belief of a father of three.

Yes, I've got a child and another on the way.

I've never hit my child, if I want her attention I just call her name. She's a very happy a well loved kid. When she's doing something I don't want her to I just ask her not to.

 

[DZ/015]

That's great. I have three. The youngest is five, so physical "attention getting" is no longer necessary. At this stage, speaking to them works well. But earlier in their develepment, talking was not always an option.

 

[macenforcer]

Read the rest of my posts. I said 'rarely given' slaps weren't the same as a beating. I also said that slaps shouldn't be part of the regular enforcement cycle when setting boundaries and gave better examples. The last resort punishment in a workplace is dismissal with loss of earnings. I doubt a slap would work better than that threat.

I have slapped a child once - and to be fair, I'd describe it as more of a tap with two fingers across the back of his hand rather than a full handslap across the rear. In that instance, I had tried distraction with other toys, I'd tried some quiet time, I'd tried stories, I'd tried explanations of the danger. He was fascinated by the oven and he'd wriggle on down and head back for the oven. Since I was baking, it was on and it was hot. I put a video on which he settled down in front of and turned to the fridge to get him his promised juice. I turned back to find him stretching out towards the hot oven door.

Under those circumstances, I 'slapped' his wrist and told him that I'd told him not to do that again. He looked shocked but didn't cry - and we went back to the sofa with the juice and watched his video. And later, he helped ice the cakes. In those circumstances, I'd do the same again since in my mind, a painful burn would have been a greater evil than that 'slap'.

Yes, all children are different. My two sons are completely different. What works for one doesn not work for another.

Now there are different levels of discipline needed.

- Child won't put his toys away. = No physical punishment. Time out.
- Child won't stay away from hot oven after many warnings. = Slap.
- Child tries to murder mother. = Beat the living crap out of them if not kill them.

Like I said before I wacked my kid once and never had to do it again. He knows what kind of Man I am and doesn't push it. Now he won't listen to my wife for nothing until I am present. He got the wack for thowing the blanket over the baby and not letting him get out. Good thing I was peeking in on them. He got a wack, a massive yelling and a time out for 2 hrs. Now he kisses the baby. Sometimes kids need to be smacked back into reality. Beating them for getting on the arm of a couch is not one of those moments and beating them every time they do bad is also not when to do it either. My wife was never hit as a child but then again she was and still is a beautiful young child/woman and never needed to be smacked. My crazy boys on the other hand sometimes need to be put back on the straight and narrow.

One thing to remember is that they are people. They get embarrassed when they get yelled at in public. I know its hard. I thank the lord for cigarettes. I get to take a 5 minute smoke break when the craziness gets out of hand. Got another kid on the way so it will make 3 too so its important to keep a level head. Remember when we were kids in the 70s (old timers here) and you drove around in you moms Nova or Road Runner with no child seat or seatbelts and walking around K-mart by yourself while mother shopped on the other side of the store was safe? Oh and beating kids was not the crime it is today. Boy times have changed, and mostly for the better but I think some people still don't get it.

Don't abuse your children, they might grow up to kill you, or worse hate you and when you die your children won't be at your funeral. Instead get a punching bag and beat the crap out of that. Remember, your kids are you. Thats the way I see it.

 

[annk]

Yes, all children are different. My two sons are completely different. What works for one doesn not work for another.

Now there are different levels of discipline needed.

- Child won't put his toys away. = No physical punishment. Time out.
- Child won't stay away from hot oven after many warnings. = Slap.
- Child tries to murder mother. = Beat the living crap out of them if not kill them.

Like I said before I wacked my kid once and never had to do it again. He knows what kind of Man I am and doesn't push it. Now he won't listen to my wife for nothing until I am present. He got the wack for thowing the blanket over the baby and not letting him get out. Good thing I was peeking in on them. He got a wack, a massive yelling and a time out for 2 hrs. Now he kisses the baby. Sometimes kids need to be smacked back into reality. Beating them for getting on the arm of a couch is not one of those moments and beating them every time they do bad is also not when to do it either. My wife was never hit as a child but then again she was and still is a beautiful young child/woman and never needed to be smacked. My crazy boys on the other hand sometimes need to be put back on the straight and narrow.

One thing to remember is that they are people. They get embarrassed when they get yelled at in public. I know its hard. I thank the lord for cigarettes. I get to take a 5 minute smoke break when the craziness gets out of hand. Got another kid on the way so it will make 3 too so its important to keep a level head. Remember when we were kids in the 70s (old timers here) and you drove around in you moms Nova or Road Runner with no child seat or seatbelts and walking around K-mart by yourself while mother shopped on the other side of the store was safe? Oh and beating kids was not the crime it is today. Boy times have changed, and mostly for the better but I think some people still don't get it.

Don't abuse your children, they might grow up to kill you, or worse hate you and when you die your children won't be at your funeral. Instead get a punching bag and beat the crap out of that. Remember, your kids are you. Thats the way I see it.

I am speechless.

 

[bousozoku]

Yup, I agree, one major rule in our house is not to misbehave in stores (also applies to other public venues like restaurants/movie theaters/...)

If either kid does misbehave, our visit is cut short even if that means not picking up whatever it was that we went to the store for. On one or two occasions this has required abandoning a cart full of stuff, picking up a kid and leaving the store right then and there.

The misbehaving kid is then not allowed to go to that store next time and must stay at home with the other parent while his brother gets to go. Funny how the bad behavior doesn't repeat itself after that...

Another thing that many parents need to understand is that kids will often pay more attention if you speak to them quietly, almost in a whisper, rather than yell. So, I often reprimand my kids by dropping to their level and whispering in their ear rather than yelling at them.

B

I have great respect for a parent who takes responsibility. I know that it's inconvenient to stop what you're doing because I've been in that situation both as a child and an adult.

I suppose everyone thinks that I go around beating children everywhere, but I don't. When I've been in charge of children recently, there weren't problems. In fact, we talked nicely because they grew up with similar rules and they knew not to do something that would get back to their parents.

I"ve told this story in the past where some man was standing there in IKEA while his child pulled everything off the wall that he could reach. I would have expected him to immediately pick up his child at a minimum and scold him but he kept watching and said "Don't do that. Daddy isn't going to clean that up." To that, I replied "Daddy ought to have to pay for all of it." He did look away from his child for a moment to give me a dirty look. The worst thing is that those little metal hangers sticking out would have really injured the little boy's eyes.

 

[calculus]

Spanking is not hitting.

Well, I'm not sure how you are going to define the difference between the two but whatever you think spanking is, next time you see an adult behaving badly 'spank' them and see what the law has to say about it.

 

[balamw]

I never said anything about not hugging your kids, don't know where you got that.

I said that slapping your kids to "shock" them is an insidious form of child abuse.

My point was that abuse is abuse and it need not be physical, while not all physical contact (even hitting) is automatically abusive.

If the "lady" in the store that was dragging her kid out the door by here ear was instead taking her firmly by the hand but was still yelling at her, calling her a biotch and a brat is it any less abusive?

There are certainly ways that "hugs" can be abusive if they are inappropriate or unwanted by the child. Certainly I don't want my child to be hugged by any random adult, but does that mean that I should stop too, because it could be abuse under other circumstances? I don't think so.

Well, I'm not sure how you are going to define the difference between the two but whatever you think spanking is, next time you see an adult behaving badly 'spank' them and see what the law has to say about it.

There is a subtle difference here that the "let the children do whatever they feel like because they're children" camp really seems to be missing in all of this. You, the parent, are responsible for the actions of your kids. Especially in relation to other people, and in particular other kids. Take that responsibility seriously.

Many otherwise well adjusted kids go through episodes where they will bite other kids, usually in frustration. "That's OK, they're just being kids" seems to be the response from those who think it's OK to jump on the couch at someone else's house. Hell no! First, the inappropriate behavior needs to be stopped then and there, and then there needs to be appropriate follow up. In that particular instance in my house they end up losing all book privileges except one "No biting" by Karen Katz. This is where the scenario Applespider fits in. The "slap" was the last thing in a series of attempts to stop the behavior that could have ended up hurting the child far more than the abuse. Would it really have been better to let the child touch the hot oven?

For adults, "the law" is the law since we have entrusted them with the responsibility for enforcement. Some of their punishments we allow them to dole out are much worse than spanking. That's why spanking an adult for misbehavior is very similar to the situation that started this thread. Inappropriate when delivered by the wrong person. We adults entrust the police and justice system to punish other adults and should not take that role on ourselves.

If parents do not establish and enforce boundaries for their kids, how are they ever to learn what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior? Particulalry since what is appropriate (or not) varies widely with the situation?

B

 

[nbs2]

If you truely think that a "single slap to shock" is harmless and a good form of discipline then maybe you should suggest to your boss that he introduces it to your workplace.

Are you saying that if my child is misbehaving or breaks one of my rules, I should fire the kid and cease to support/have any responsibility for him?

Trying to compare children and employees is absurd and insidious.

 

[balamw]

Are you saying that if my child is misbehaving or breaks one of my rules, I should fire the kid and cease to support/have any responsibility for him?

Trying to compare children and employees is absurd and insidious.

Nah just give 'em a nice severance package and they'll be fine.

B

 

[mkrishnan]

Nah just give 'em a nice severance package and they'll be fine.

I'm sick of hearing about over-privileged ten-year-olds getting golden parachutes while the common kid slaves away for lower and lower wages. Somebody needs to audit this stuff! *storms off in a huff*

 

[bousozoku]

Well, I'm not sure how you are going to define the difference between the two but whatever you think spanking is, next time you see an adult behaving badly 'spank' them and see what the law has to say about it.

Spanking makes the skin red. Hitting leaves bruises, sometimes breaks bones, and can cause internal injuries.

 

[calculus]

Spanking makes the skin red. Hitting leaves bruises, sometimes breaks bones, and can cause internal injuries.

So, at what point does one become the other?

 

[obeygiant]

its funny tho, back in the day, when people we admire grew up , all accross the board from maya angleu to abraham lincoln, when kids screwed up, they got their azz kicked! not just like a spanking, but a full on beating. And they are all fine. Its almost as if we are raising a nation of wussies. You and I are NOT that much more enlightened than people from the past, we just have more information, and it doenst change the fact that...


DISIPLINE IS IMPORTANT FOR KIDS!

and when they step out of line, they should be punished in accordance to what they can handle and/or what they did.

 

[bousozoku]

So, at what point does one become the other?

When the adult no longer feels more emotional pain than the child's physical pain.

Spanking a child is not pleasant. It's not something anyone should want to do. It's a last resort to a child who won't listen otherwise.

I've seen people who take pleasure and use spanking as an excuse and a starting point to beat a child. That is never appropriate. When you don't have control, you should go away from the situation. If you don't exercise control, you shouldn't have children.

 

[Josh]

Serious question for those that feel spanking a child is perfectly acceptable:

If you are a man, how do you feel about slapping your wife should she do something you don't feel is appropriate?

Is that acceptable?

Surely she is larger than the child, and older, so such a slap would not be as bad; she isn't as defenseless.

She's also older and wiser, and should "know better," thus her breach of the rules would be even more unacceptable....right?

The way I see it is this. Either:

A) You do see that as acceptable. In which case you view physical punishment as necessary. I don't think I'm alone in saying you have no business being a parent or a husband.​

B) You don't see it as acceptable. Only a child should be slapped (in contrast to a larger and less-deffenseless adult). I don't know how you were raised, but anyone who would slap a defensless child, and not an adult, isn't any more of a man than the child he's slapping. Again - no business being a parent, and no self-respecting woman should waste her time.​

 

[calculus]

If you don't exercise control, you shouldn't have children.

I agree with this but smacking (sorry got fed up with 'spanking') is not the answer.

 

[balamw]

Serious question for those that feel spanking a child is perfectly acceptable:

I haven't seen anyone in this thread say that spanking is perfectly acceptable and should be practiced regularly (have you doled out your daily spanking today), only that it should not be automatically ruled out as a means of discipline. As bousozoku said when it becomes commonplace or acceptable and doesn't make the parent feel emotional pain it has gone from a spanking to an abusive beating. There's some real truth in the old saying "This is going to hurt me more that it hurts you".

The big difference between misbehavior in an adult and a child reamains the fact that you should be able to reason with an adult, while that can be impossible with a child. You can also walk away from a misbehaving adult more easily than you can from a child, as walking away from a child who is putting themself in danger just isn't responsible parenting. (IMHO of course).

Should AppleSpider have walked away from her child and let them touch the hot oven instead of slapping their hand?

B

 

[Josh]

.

Should AppleSpider have walked away from her child and let them touch the hot oven instead of slapping their hand?

B

No, she should have been an adult and used intellect rather than emotions to react.

Pick the child up and move them to somewhere safe, and explain to them the dangers of the hot oven.

The slap on the hand only taught the kid that if he puts his hand in a certain place, she will slap it.

That hasn't taught him a thing about the ovens or grills at other peoples houses.

 

[nbs2]

If you are a man, how do you feel about slapping your wife should she do something you don't feel is appropriate?

<snip>

Without even touching the issue of spanking, I have some questions and thoughts in response:

Josh, do you have children? I'll even accept one on the way.

If you are a woman, how do you feel about slapping your husband? Spousal abuse can come from either direction.

Also, how do feel about a person telling his wife to go to her room without dinner because she has broken a rule? Should she be able to handle being sent to the room without 2 or 3 meals - or even for 2 or 3 days? She's older, has a slower metabolism, and being wiser should have known better.

Can people please keep the comparisons more appropriate? I've now seen a child compared to an employee and a wife - neither of which is a proper way for anybody to treat their child.

You may now continue your discussions.

 

[Josh]

Without even touching the issue of spanking, I have some questions and thoughts in response:

If you are a woman, how do you feel about slapping your husband? Spousal abuse can come from either direction.

Also, how do feel about a person telling his wife to go to her room without dinner because she has broken a rule? Should she be able to handle being sent to the room without 2 or 3 meals - or even for 2 or 3 days? She's older, has a slower metabolism, and being wiser should have known better.

Can people please keep the comparisons more appropriate? I've now seen a child compared to an employee and a wife - neither of which is a proper way for anybody to treat their child.

You may now continue your discussions.

So hitting a person is either unacceptable/acceptable depending on their age, gender, or relationship to self... nice.

Or...how about hitting people is just unacceptable all together?

Sadly, this isn't the first time I've said this, and it seems to become increasingly more often, but, I expected more from MR. This is borderline sickening

 

[calculus]

Or...how about hitting people is just unacceptable all together?

Well that gets my vote. In my experience people who hit their kids (let's stop this 'spanking' nonsense) fall into one of two categories. They either do it in a deliberate and calculated way or because they have failed to show what the boundaries are and end up losing their temper and lashing out.

 

[Nuc]

I'll give my point of view. I didn't read all the comments from other people though so hopefully it's not repeated.

I believe a parent must choose which method works better for there kids. Take me for instance, I received plenty of spankings when I was younger but it didn't really work for me because I was to stubborn. However, when I was grounded or privileges taken away I was much more obedient.

When my daughter gets older I will access what way is best. I plan to use the technique that the Super Nanny does since this seems to work 100% of the time if applied correctly. But if the time comes I don't have a problem with spanking.

Nuc

 

[Applespider]

No, she should have been an adult and used intellect rather than emotions to react.

Pick the child up and move them to somewhere safe, and explain to them the dangers of the hot oven.

Did you read my post - don't insult my intelligence? I did move the child, I did explain the hot oven, I did attempt multiple forms of distraction. None of them worked... the slap (and as I said previously, it wasn't enough to really warrant that word) did surprise him enough to make him pay attention that I really, really didn't want him to touch that. We followed up the lesson once the cakes were out of the oven by touching them while still warm (hot enough to be hot to a child but not dangerously so) and explained that if he'd touched the oven while they were cooking, it would have been very sore and 'burnie'

Incidentally, the child in question (not mine but a close relative who I looked after often) stayed away from ovens at my house and his mother's from then on until he was sure they were off. And since he's now a relatively able cook for a teenaged boy, I don't think I traumatised him much either.

Josh... from your posts (here and previously), you live in a very ideal world which bears little relation to the real messy one that we all actually live in.

And no, I don't generally believe violence is appropriate - but like I said earlier, this was a light swat across the back of the hand which I really wouldn't class as violent. I've seen people grab for a pen on a desk in the office and have their hand swatted away. I've had boyfriends who would tease and who I'd mock swat on the arm in a 'get you' type fashion.

But if someone is hitting hard enough to raise a mark - whether redness or a bruise - then that to me is violence and too far - whether it's aimed at a child, woman or man.

 

[MarkCollette]

Well, I'm not sure how you are going to define the difference between the two but whatever you think spanking is, next time you see an adult behaving badly 'spank' them and see what the law has to say about it.

Actually, I've spanked a lot of women, and they were all appreciative
And I have to say, I'd never hit a child in that way, nor that hard.

But, back to the topic at hand. Society, and the law, recognise that child care givers are responsible for the children under their care, and thus are allowed to punish (corporally) said children. This is not the same for adults, as we are autonomous individuals, not responsible for each other. So sorry, your analogy just doesn't apply.

I don't understand why people keep confusing the issue of a family member spanking a child versus a random stranger. No **** we'd all freak at a stranger doing anything to our kids. In fact, I think that I'd have varying reactions to:
- My spouse spanking our kid
- A family member spanking my kid
- A teacher or daycare worker spanking my kid
- A family friend spanking my kid
- A stranger spanking my kid

So, trying to draw inferences from one to the other doesn't really make sense, since each is a different situation.