Advice Regarding Spanking

[Josh]

Did you read my post - don't insult my intelligence? I did move the child, I did explain the hot oven, I did attempt multiple forms of distraction. None of them worked... the slap (and as I said previously, it wasn't enough to really warrant that word) did surprise him enough to make him pay attention that I really, really didn't want him to touch that. We followed up the lesson once the cakes were out of the oven by touching them while still warm (hot enough to be hot to a child but not dangerously so) and explained that if he'd touched the oven while they were cooking, it would have been very sore and 'burnie'

Incidentally, the child in question (not mine but a close relative who I looked after often) stayed away from ovens at my house and his mother's from then on until he was sure they were off. And since he's now a relatively able cook for a teenaged boy, I don't think I traumatised him much either.

Josh... from your posts (here and previously), you live in a very ideal world which bears little relation to the real messy one that we all actually live in.

And no, I don't generally believe violence is appropriate - but like I said earlier, this was a light swat across the back of the hand which I really wouldn't class as violent. I've seen people grab for a pen on a desk in the office and have their hand swatted away. I've had boyfriends who would tease and who I'd mock swat on the arm in a 'get you' type fashion.

But if someone is hitting hard enough to raise a mark - whether redness or a bruise - then that to me is violence and too far - whether it's aimed at a child, woman or man.

I am not insulting your intelligence. I'm just asking that adults that have or are caring for children should use that intelligence.

Adults have what children do not as far as wisdom and intelligence go. Hitting because something did not go correctly or as you would want is something anyone could do, that's something children often do when throwing fits.

To see an adult react similarly only re-enforces that idea that if one's way is not achieved, hitting is the answer.

I assure you that situation could have been dealt wih without the smack. (Especially considering it was not even your child....but I'll refrain from going into that...)

My world is also far from "ideal." I apologize if resorting to other means than violence to get a point across is out of the norm for anyone, however if that is so, perhaps it is not "my wold" that requires the attention.

 

[freeny]

I think spanking isn't a problem. The only thing here is I don't know if I could spank other people's kids. I would have said to your sister, 'ok, either get that kid down or I'll do it and they won't like it'. That way your sister has authority and control over the kids but it lets her know you won't tollerate it.

Kids today are coddled too much. My parents spanked me when I was young and I'm glad they did. I would have been a brat otherwise.

"And if they get out of line, I got no problem just smackin'em in the head" - Jack Black School of Rock

This is how I would have dealt with it^^^^. I dont hit my kid but I reserve the right to if necessary. I in no way would EVER let someone else strike my child, sister or not.

I understand your frustration with your sister, I have seen kids whos parents dont take controll when when needed and it drives me bonkers! Theres not much you can do.

Instead of taking your anger out on the kid take it out on the parent. Tell them what a crap job they are doing at parenting. By all means, never hit someone elses child. You could go to jail for that. Sister or not.

I was at a playground where my son was playing and someones little boy was running around throwing water on random kids. The mother just sat on the bench and would call out occasionally "dont do that, stop doing that". but of course the boy didnt listen and kept doing it.

Parents began taking their children off the playground and going home until one mother went up to the kids parent and told her how her child is on a path to prison and she wasnt doing her job. Weather he really was to end up in prison or not is anyones guess but she got the point and took her kid and left. The mother who said something got an unexpected round of applause from the other parents.

 

[bousozoku]

I can see that a lot of people have either never been in charge of children or have never been in charge of unruly or violent children.

Every week, I see something on the news where some child has gone missing or has died because of neglect. That's far more abusive than a simple spanking.

A dead child never gets over it and it's too late for the parent to improve.

 

[MarkCollette]

So, at what point does one become the other?

Sometimes the legal difference is if there's residual marks. I think that's for two reasons. One is biological, in that if there's no residual mark, then the physical trauma probably wasn't worth legal recourse. The second is, if there's no residual mark, then you can't really prove it in a court of law.

Personally, I'd never spank my kids anywhere near hard enough to leave a mark anyways. One thing I read just now was that adults bruise easier than children. So I think it's a bit more serious for a child to be bruised, than us.

 

[balamw]

Josh... from your posts (here and previously), you live in a very ideal world which bears little relation to the real messy one that we all actually live in.

So, trying to draw inferences from one to the other doesn't really make sense, since each is a different situation.

Amen to both of those points.

Raising kids is a series of non-ideal messy situations in which black and white turn into all shades of gray. Add to that the complexity that every child is an individual with their own evolving personality and you end up with situations where something that worked extremely well to teach one child in fact rubs another kid exactly the wrong way and exacerbates the situation, potentially putting the child at risk for greater harm.

Actually, I've spanked a lot of women

I was wondering how soon this thread would take such a direction....

B

 

[calculus]

I can see that a lot of people have either never been in charge of children

I would love you to say who you think they are - I bet you are not right.

 

[Josh]

>>>>>I can see that a lot of people have either never been in charge of children or have never been in charge of unruly or violent children. <<<<<

Every week, I see something on the news where some child has gone missing or has died because of neglect. That's far more abusive than a simple spanking.

A dead child never gets over it and it's too late for the parent to improve.

Perhaps you can look a bit deeper and realize the connection you made.

Those who favor spanking are dealing with "violent" children, and those against it are dealing with non-violent children.

After all, children learn best by example. Perhaps there is a reason those children in the care of those who hit are violent, and the children in the care of those who do not hit are not "unruly" or "violent?"

Secondly...just because some children are in terrible situations and go missing, etc does not create an excuse for other children to be spanked.

Becase a live child *could* get over it does not mean he or she should have to.

 

[calculus]

Those who favor spanking are dealing with "violent" children, and those against it are dealing with non-violent children.

I think this is pretty much right. Hitting your children teaches them that violence is an acceptable way to solve problems.

 

[gadgetgirl85]

I think this is pretty much right. Hitting your children teaches them that violence is an acceptable way to solve problems.

Agreed! I don't think any form of hitting/spanking is needed to discipline any child no matter what age they are

 

[balamw]

To see an adult react similarly only re-enforces that idea that if one's way is not achieved, hitting is the answer.

I generally agree, as I'm sure do most parents. By the time we have kids most of us should be quite used to not getting our way.

I believe, there's a certain amount of a "do unto others" message that can be delivered to kids through occasional and modest physical discipline. (I'm not talking about closed fists, belts, brushes or wire hangers here).

Young children lack the ability to put each other in someone else's shoes (they're barely figuring out their own feelings etc...) so disciplining them by sitting them down and telling them "you hurt Bobby when you hit/bit/pushed him/snatched his toy, so please don't do that again" won't necessarily sink in and the behavior can persist. The reprimand can have a stronger impact if it is accompanied with action which helps them understand how the other kid might be feeling (e.g. a light tap on the back of the hand).

Time outs and similar passive punishments are great tools, but they aren't always effective for every child in every situation.

B

 

[nbs2]

Those who favor spanking are dealing with "violent" children, and those against it are dealing with non-violent children.

Are you putting the cart before the horse? All bousozoku said that many here have "never been in charge of children or have never been in charge of unruly or violent children."

I don't think that there is any implication that the children grew up in homes with corporal punishment. Any individual in charge of violent individuals is taught basic submisson holds and restraints. Why? Because you often have to stop one from causing harm to another. By trying to blanket physicality with children as hitting and otherwise assaultive, it implies that restrainting (which can often be very painful for the restrained if resistance is made) is improper. To everything there is a season....

I would love to see a poll with 4 options:
1) I have children (grown, current, or pending) and do not believe in corporal punishment
2) I have children and do believe in corporal punishment
3) I don't have children and do not believe in corporal punishment
4) I don't have children and do believe in corporal punishment

 

[balamw]

I would love to see a poll with 4 options:

Like most polls it's still too simplistic. I'd want to answer something like "I have children (grown, current, or pending) and do not believe in corporal punishment as a primary form of discipline, yet I don't rule it out, and have on occasion used it."

As soon to be parents where do you and florifee stand on this?

B

 

[nbs2]

Like most polls it's still too simplistic. I'd want to answer something like "I have children (grown, current, or pending) and do not believe in corporal punishment as a primary form of discipline, yet I don't rule it out, and have on occasion used it."

As soon to be parents where do you and florifee stand on this?

Good point. But, I don't imagine anybody here (I might be surprised) actually believes that it should be a primary form of punishment - just something used when being a good and just parent requires it.

As for Lori and I...well, that was the cause of our last (and biggest to date) fight. I'm trying to keep my opinion out of this thread, but I will say that we have reached a compromise. However, I did agree to abandon my padded solitary confinement room plan, even though I still think it is better than sending a kid to their room - this way there is nothing to play with, and nothing to break...

 

[SodaPopMonster]

I was spanked as a child; I believe it is healthy to have boundries. If the kid turns out weird, you can always sue Macrumors


This topic also brings up interestong google ads.

 

[bousozoku]

Perhaps you can look a bit deeper and realize the connection you made.

Those who favor spanking are dealing with "violent" children, and those against it are dealing with non-violent children.

After all, children learn best by example. Perhaps there is a reason those children in the care of those who hit are violent, and the children in the care of those who do not hit are not "unruly" or "violent?"

Secondly...just because some children are in terrible situations and go missing, etc does not create an excuse for other children to be spanked.

Becase a live child *could* get over it does not mean he or she should have to.

I can't imagine what kind of life you've had where you've missed the real world. You're assuming things that I'm not saying and extrapolating from that.

Parents need to care for their children 24/7, not just when it's convenient or fashionable. Sometimes, that means spanking and other times, it means sitting down with them and teaching them to read for 3 hours. It also means that you get out of your nice, warm bed in the middle of the night because they need to be held. It means that you hurt when they hurt and you can't fix it for them because they have to learn it for themselves. It means that you get up early in the morning to make sure they have breakfast and you go to bed later than they do to make sure everything is ready in the morning.

Anyone who tells you that parenting is easy doesn't do it correctly.

I'm betting that a lot of people on MR have never gotten one meal cooked on the stove more than one day a week. That means no microwave oven and pulling a box of Stouffer's Lasagna or pizza from the freezer is not cooking. I'm betting further that most of your parents have never picked out a recipe and made it from scratch.

 

[true777]

Well, for the record, I am the mother of a very active 4 1/2 year-old boy, and I have never considered laying a hand on him to make him learn to behave appropriately. I strongly believe that there are *always* better alternatives than becoming physically violent, and that physical aggression as a problem solver is the worst example one could set for a child.

And this is a single mom speaking, so yes, I am in the real world dealing with my little one every day. There is no reason to spank -- there always is a better way to achieve the same goal.

 

[macenforcer]

I think I am seeing a pattern here. People who don't spank their kids and the kids are well behaved basically don't have to spank. People that spank when needed have some unruly kids. Yo, all kids are different and have different needs and then again some kids will react differently to spanking.

 

[calculus]

I'm betting that a lot of people on MR have never gotten one meal cooked on the stove more than one day a week. That means no microwave oven and pulling a box of Stouffer's Lasagna or pizza from the freezer is not cooking. I'm betting further that most of your parents have never picked out a recipe and made it from scratch.

1. What is your evidence for this?
2. What on earth has it got to do with anything anyway?

 

[balamw]

Glad you've reached a truce. Don't carve the rules on stone tablets tough, as by the time you're in the thick of it either of you might feel differently than today.

I did agree to abandon my padded solitary confinement room plan, even though I still think it is better than sending a kid to their room - this way there is nothing to play with, and nothing to break...

You mean their rooms shouldn't be empty padded calls with an ample supply of straight jackets? I knew we must be doing something wrong.

Anyone who tells you that parenting is easy doesn't do it correctly.

Either that or they've just been very lucky up to date. I've had many conversations with parents of newborns who look at me in bewilderment when I ask them how much sleep they've been getting and tell me that their kid never gets up/keeps them up at night only to find them completely disheveled a week or two later when their kid has decided that nighttime is the right time to party and now sleeps all day.

B

 

[patrick0brien]

I'm betting that a lot of people on MR have never gotten one meal cooked on the stove more than one day a week. That means no microwave oven and pulling a box of Stouffer's Lasagna or pizza from the freezer is not cooking. I'm betting further that most of your parents have never picked out a recipe and made it from scratch.

-bousozoku

I think I see the point you are trying to make, but it's pretty hard. Can you help me out?

BTW- I grew up in a house without a microwave .

 

[bousozoku]

1. What is your evidence for this?
2. What on earth has it got to do with anything anyway?

1. Evidence for what?
2. It's all about family and spending time together, and learning patience.

...
Either that or they've just been very lucky up to date. I've had many conversations with parents of newborns who look at me in bewilderment when I ask them how much sleep they've been getting and tell me that their kid never gets up/keeps them up at night only to find them completely disheveled a week or two later when their kid has decided that nighttime is the right time to party and now sleeps all day.

B

I remember the man at work who said that they had the baby on a schedule. Two weeks later, he was falling asleep at his desk. The baby had them on a schedule.

 

[calculus]

1. Evidence for what?
2. It's all about family and spending time together, and learning patience.

1. Your assertion about people on MR
2. Well I agree that it would be a good thing

 

[nbs2]

1. Your assertion about people on MR

Unfortunately, I think it applies more broadly than just to people on MR. As a society, we seem to have decided that spending time with family is not all that important. Not to pick on people here (or anywhere else), but there is definately not a lack of posts in the local evening times around the globe. what percentage of regular posters are teens, who spend a good amount of time at the computer socializing with us, rather than their families. Lori and I have cut back on posting in the evenings to almost nothing since we noticed that we were communicating more through posts than talking to each other.

Based on observation - there are parents who spank their kids so readily that it is bothersome. I'm sure that we aren't seening the whole problem and how the child has refused to listen to the parent all day, but it looks like they are too quick and good at spanking. I've also seen parents that do nothing to discipline their children. They keep telling their child that they need to behave, and that they are going ot get a time out, or that they are in time out, and the child runs around, ignoring the parent. It ends up hassling me (since the kid inevitably runs into me or interferes with what I'm doing), and you can tell that the parent is not sorry for what they have allowed their child to do. They expect the world to help parent their child.

Serious question (please don't laugh) - For those who believe that there is always a solution that does not involve physical discipline, what solution do you use when a child of sufficient age chooses to attack or abuse a family member. I ask, because the one thing I think of in justifying a physical response would be an attack on Lori. If our kid, at say 15, attacked her, a submission hold be in place instantly. Resistance to the submission would be met with whatever it took to end the resisitance.

 

[Josh]

I can't imagine what kind of life you've had where you've missed the real world. You're assuming things that I'm not saying and extrapolating from that.

Parents need to care for their children 24/7, not just when it's convenient or fashionable. Sometimes, that means spanking and other times, it means sitting down with them and teaching them to read for 3 hours. It also means that you get out of your nice, warm bed in the middle of the night because they need to be held. It means that you hurt when they hurt and you can't fix it for them because they have to learn it for themselves. It means that you get up early in the morning to make sure they have breakfast and you go to bed later than they do to make sure everything is ready in the morning.

Anyone who tells you that parenting is easy doesn't do it correctly.

I'm betting that a lot of people on MR have never gotten one meal cooked on the stove more than one day a week. That means no microwave oven and pulling a box of Stouffer's Lasagna or pizza from the freezer is not cooking. I'm betting further that most of your parents have never picked out a recipe and made it from scratch.

I make my opinions on parenting based on what I've observed first hand when I've been asked to watch other peoples children. I have *never* even considered hitting any of them, nor have I even raised my voice at them.

There *are* options besides spanking, even if you think it is the last resort. Spanking is never an option.

Anyone who tells you differently is a bad parent, and I really feel bad for anyone who feels that way. It is primative and sickening. Parenting is not easy, but that does not mean it needs to be violent. If you cannot raise children without striking them, you should not raise children at all. PERIOD.

Ever heard of a tangent? You went on quite a big one with the cooking statements.

You make very bold claims about people you have never met, and it is not the least bit surprising, coming from someone who supports spanking, thinking that violence against a defenseless person is a resort.

People who resort to spanking children have issues with handling problems, and I think it extends beyond children and could be seen in other situations in their lives. It shows a lack of understanding, education, and maturity. It's disgusting and very trashy.

I am quite positive those in favor of spanking were spanked as children. But just because it happened to you does not make it OK.

For crying out loud, it seems like a lot of folks here would treat computers better than children.

 

[annk]

...

Serious question (please don't laugh) - For those who believe that there is always a solution that does not involve physical discipline, what solution do you use when a child of sufficient age chooses to attack or abuse a family member. I ask, because the one thing I think of in justifying a physical response would be an attack on Lori. If our kid, at say 15, attacked her, a submission hold be in place instantly. Resistance to the submission would be met with whatever it took to end the resisitance.

If a teenager in my family attacked a family member, my first concern would be to interfere and stop the attack as quickly and non-violently as possible. Would I hit a big 15-yr-old attacking a small parent, if I felt it were the only way to protect the physically weaker party? I honestly don't know. I don't think I would, at least not unless I felt a life was in danger and it was the ONLY WAY to keep someone from being beat to death. But I think we're out of the realm of spanking here, the age of the child and the situation concerned. And spanking is the subject at hand.

Once there was no longer any immediate danger, I would involve some sort of help agency immediately - a counselor, the school, a psychaitrist or even the police (if it were a large teenager who had done bodily harm, and whom I was worried was a danger to him/herself or others.

Once something like this happened, I wouldn't waste time.

That said, I don't believe an attack of that nature - an older child in the family attacking another family member - comes out of the blue. Something quite obviously has been going on long before, that should have received attention. And it wouldn't suprise me one bit if the person in question had been disciplined with hitting at some point.

But people, we're not gonna agree here. Some of us think smacking your children is wrong no matter what (myself included), some think that different variations on the theme are ok if X and Y are present. I doubt very much any of us are going to change our minds on the matter. We may just as well round this up now.