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Am I in the right place?

H

hunterjwizzard

macrumors member
Original poster
May 29, 2020
34
7
Hi folks,

I'd like to preface this thread by saying I am not a mac user. I don't own a modern mac or any "i"products, and have never used a mac for more than a few minutes at a time. My mouse has 2 buttons on it. So not an ideal starting point, but here we go.

About 10 years back, I picked up this Dual G4 PowerPC MAC in a thrift store for about $40. Its been sitting on my rack ever since, occasionally wired in to my network. I've been somewhat maintaining it, it gets booted once or twice a year, and as luck would have it, it happens to be fully compatible with my current KVM.

I like to tinker with old PCs, and during the lock-down I've been reviving a lot of my old wintel units for fun. My next project is... this Mac.

The specs:

Its a Dual G4 PowerPC 450mhz, 2GB SDRAM, running OSX 10.4.11.

If I recall the rule of thumb during the PowerPC days was to double the clock speed to get the intel equivalent - of course who knows if my memory is correct. Its clear that at some point I formatted this machine, it has a name I clearly gave it and is registered to me. Beyond that it does not appear to have any software.

I am looking for:
*Software
*Some suggestions about fun things to do with this machine(old games would be awesome)
*A little light technical support to get me up to speed on ancient Macs.

I don't know any of the mac lingo or the keyboard commands, which in and of themselves might be an interesting challenge as I describe my setup. The Mac is attached to an Avocent DSQview KVM switch from about 2008, its KVM over Cat5 which is how I can keep so many ridiculous PCs attached at a moment's notice. This machine actually uses the KVMs video(most of my systems just use keyboard/mouse). The KVM is hooked to a VGA-to-DVI upscaler which in turn goes through a switcher into a a 43" 4k monitor. Yes, a 1024x768 video signal looks silly on a giant screen, but I do this for fun. My interface is a vintage IBM clickykeys Model M keyboard(it has no windows key) and a basic Microsoft Scroll Mouse.

I'm looking forward to what anyone has to say.

Thanks!
 
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One of the advantages of the Power Mac G4 series is that they bridge the gap between the classic and the modern worlds. With the notorious exception of the FW800 MDD, all of them can boot from either OS 9 or OS X. They're tremendously flexible and possibly the best overall retro Macs for most people. Based on the processor description, yours is almost certainly a Gigabit Ethernet ("Mystic"), which is a respectable machine. Furthermore, Tiger seems to be a favorite among the PPC Mac community, and it's advantageous to have it over even Panther (10.3.9). So, you're off to a great start.

This thread looks to have a lot of great tips for getting set up/populated. The first and most important step to take is to pick up a new browser - if you intend to download software directly using the machine itself, you'll need it, and it can be useful to have at any rate. Tenfourfox is apparently still the standard.

After that's set up, I'd look to see if OS 9/Classic is installed. You can go to System Preferences in the Dock and look in the Classic section there, or else go to the main directory and look for a "System Folder". If you don't have it, you can either find an install disc, or install from the NetBoot image that Apple's provided for free. Once this is done, this should allow you to run most classic Mac software, with a few exceptions*.

If you ever find that website access is broken by TLS, particularly under Classic (which currently, until a new Classilla release comes out, has no current browser), you can mitigate the problem with the help of the WebOne proxy server, provided that you have a relatively modern machine that can run it in Windows or Linux. It takes a little work to set up, but when you're done you should be able to access most sites using any browser you have. (Properly rendering their contents is another story, however.)

The Mac was traditionally a strong shareware and freeware platform, so your options in that area are extensive even without 'abandonware'. This site, Macintosh Archive, apparently holds vast archives of the archives that used to be online; I can't vouch for all of it, but I know Info-Mac and Tucows were some of the best sources back in the day; UMich (University of Michigan) is also worth mentioning.

If you want file sharing between your G4 and any of your other local computers, I've found myself that one of the most reliable ways to do it is to set up local FTP servers. In OS X, it should be straightforward to turn it on in 'Services' in System Preferences; if booted in OS 9, you can use Peter Lewis' NetPresenz 4.1, which was released for free. (Also look into his excellent shareware-turned-freeware game Greebles, a poorly-known but great Mac exclusive.)

Also as far as games go, this might not come up otherwise, so I feel I'd be amiss not to mention that Pangea Software released a number of their classic games for free. During their heyday their games were usually bundled with new Macs and played a major role in marketing the platform, especially the first Bugdom. john calhoun also released Glider PRO for free at one point, known as one of the most 'Mac-like' games during its tenure (there's both Classic and X versions, the former being better).

* Similar to the x86 world, some of the early Macs and Mac software worked based on assumptions that would change very shortly after their introduction. As such, some of the very earliest Mac software is clock-speed dependent, and is almost unusable on newer platforms. It's also not uncommon for them to lack sound, or crash unpredictably. The general rules are as follows, for someone running 8.6/9: Anything System 6 or below is a roll of the dice whether it will be good or not. After System 7, things tend to get more compatible, progressively so as versions go by (with a big leap from 7 to 7.5, and again from 7.5 to 8 or 8.1), but there are still a number of things that can break, typically but not exclusively in action or arcade games. 8.5 and newer should generally work as well as you can get in OS 9.
 
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Leopard will also run very well on this Mac, if the graphics card was upgraded to basically anything better than the Rage 128 Pro it most likely has in it. Though it would need to be coaxed to install. It’s still a surprisingly capable little machine. I had a decked out Sawtooth that upgraded with a dual 450Mhz G4 card, Geforce 6200, a SATA card and max 2GB RAM. It ran Leopard and was mostly used for games and light browsing.

I’ve since picked up a FW800 MDD G4 and have moved all of those (save for the Geforce which is incompatible with it) into the MDD. However sometimes I miss using the graphite G4 if not just for it’s character.
I do still have it, I just don’t have anything in it anymore.
 
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Project Alice said:
Leopard will also run very well on this Mac, if the graphics card was upgraded to basically anything better than the Rage 128 Pro it most likely has in it.
Click to expand...
If going that route, make sure that the new GPU is CI-capable. That helps tremendously with Leopard's UI, especially on slow machines.
 
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Well it definitely sounds like I've come to the right place! Thank you all for the helpful advice.

So first things: yes, looks like it is still running the Rage128 Pro. I'm kind of shocked; that card was ANCIENT even back when this machine was new; and by all accounts it seems like the previous owner put a lot of money into it(unless I'm the one that slapped the 2gb of RAM in... which is possible). So I would very much like to upgrade the graphics card if that's possible. Don't mind spending a little $$ on it but I know nothing about vintage mac hardware.

Would an updated graphics card possibly be able to output a signal over DVI? I believe I have a spare DVI cable in the bridge, I would not mind at all being able to run this baby at a higher screen resolution. On a related point: can it be configured for dual monitors?

And now for the big challenge: can anyone tell me why I can't get this machine to talk to my network? I've checked all the basics, the same cable plugged into another machine gets an IP just fine. But the Mac won't pick up a DHCP address. I tried assigning a static IP but still no love. I recall that on previous occasions when I had this machine set up, I was indeed able to access windows file shares, go online, etc, so I believe the network card is fully functional. Is it possible there's something wrong with my current network topology? I've changed ISPs twice and routers 4 times since I last had this thing set up for anything other than a basic power-on test.
 
hunterjwizzard said:
Well it definitely sounds like I've come to the right place! Thank you all for the helpful advice.

So first things: yes, looks like it is still running the Rage128 Pro. I'm kind of shocked; that card was ANCIENT even back when this machine was new; and by all accounts it seems like the previous owner put a lot of money into it(unless I'm the one that slapped the 2gb of RAM in... which is possible). So I would very much like to upgrade the graphics card if that's possible. Don't mind spending a little $$ on it but I know nothing about vintage mac hardware.

Would an updated graphics card possibly be able to output a signal over DVI? I believe I have a spare DVI cable in the bridge, I would not mind at all being able to run this baby at a higher screen resolution. On a related point: can it be configured for dual monitors?

And now for the big challenge: can anyone tell me why I can't get this machine to talk to my network? I've checked all the basics, the same cable plugged into another machine gets an IP just fine. But the Mac won't pick up a DHCP address. I tried assigning a static IP but still no love. I recall that on previous occasions when I had this machine set up, I was indeed able to access windows file shares, go online, etc, so I believe the network card is fully functional. Is it possible there's something wrong with my current network topology? I've changed ISPs twice and routers 4 times since I last had this thing set up for anything other than a basic power-on test.
Click to expand...
Graphic cards are one of the big gotchas when it comes to the difference between Mac and PC (especially in this era). It would be great to just grab any decent spare card you have and plug it in, but the problem is that the Mac is going to need/want a Mac capable GPU. During this era there was a lot of reflashing work where more modern PC cards were taken and flashed with a Mac ROM to work in a Mac, but generally you're going to be wanting to look for ATI and NVDIA branded cards of that era.

One of the best cards you can get is the ATI FireGL X3. There's a vendor on eBay that sells them pre-flashed to Mac for about $80 or so. But other cards such as the 9200, 7000, 9650 (which is a G5 card that will work in a G4 if you tape pins), 9600 and 9800 will also work. On the NVIDIA side the GeForce 4 cards are a decent option.

Each of the cards I've named are dual display cards, so that answers your dual monitor question. By the way, I've run 6 displays off a G4 before. I did that with my G5 and now it's with my Mac Pro. So, dual displays with your G4 is very easy to do.

As far as networking, the only thing I can think of is your DNS. Is that set correctly? You can also use alternative DNS such as Google's.
 
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I'd like to use a card that was designed to work in a mac out of the box, if that's possible? Not that I have anything against modding or re-flashing, but I'm more interested in stability than raw power. I don't at all mind using something a little older/weaker if it means it was meant to go in this machine.

If my research is correct, this is a "Graphite" Power Mac G4 built sometime in the early 2000s.




As for the networking - I jumped into full-on "eliminate variables" mode and ran a patch cable directly from the MAC into the core switch, and suddenly that worked like a charm. Go figure. I've been having trouble with these cable runs since day1, for some reason it passes all tests and works on another PC, but not this one. I'll just path a factory-made cable and call it a day.
 
hunterjwizzard said:
I'd like to use a card that was designed to work in a mac out of the box, if that's possible? Not that I have anything against modding or re-flashing, but I'm more interested in stability than raw power. I don't at all mind using something a little older/weaker if it means it was meant to go in this machine.

If my research is correct, this is a "Graphite" Power Mac G4 built sometime in the early 2000s.




As for the networking - I jumped into full-on "eliminate variables" mode and ran a patch cable directly from the MAC into the core switch, and suddenly that worked like a charm. Go figure. I've been having trouble with these cable runs since day1, for some reason it passes all tests and works on another PC, but not this one. I'll just path a factory-made cable and call it a day.
Click to expand...
Well, the cards I named, except for the ATI Radeon 7000 and the FireGL X3 are all Mac cards. When you look to buy one, you just have to append 'Mac' to the search.

Some else here may have more options for you.

Yeah, patch cables. I've got three or four that should work, but don't. Ran them direct to my switch. But regular old CAT 5, non-patch cable does work. Go figure.
 
So I did a bit of digging about on eBay and found this:

www.ebay.com

nVidia Geforce 6200 128mb AGP Video Card For Apple PowerMac G4 *G4 Cube DVI+VGA | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for nVidia Geforce 6200 128mb AGP Video Card For Apple PowerMac G4 *G4 Cube DVI+VGA at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com

Weird thing is it says the DVI port only outputs VGA? That's not going to work, I need it to output a DVI signal to get it working on the big screen.

I think I'll keep shopping.
 
So I found a geforce4 thats a working-pull from a G4 "quicksilver", is that likely to still work for mine?
 
hunterjwizzard said:
So I found a geforce4 thats a working-pull from a G4 "quicksilver", is that likely to still work for mine?
Click to expand...
If it was working in the QS then yes, it's likely to work for you. Keep in mind though (you may want to ask) that it might have an ADC port. That's Apple's proprietary display port.

You may want to avoid any cards with the ADC port for the moment.
 
No it definitely has an ADC port, was trying to figure out what that was called(my current card has one, too).

What about a Radeon 9600GT pulled from a G5?
 
hunterjwizzard said:
No it definitely has an ADC port, was trying to figure out what that was called(my current card has one, too).

What about a Radeon 9600GT pulled from a G5?
Click to expand...
That's got an ADC port, and you'll need to tape pins 3 and 11. Might just try for a 9200. That's a decent card.
 
eyoungren said:
That's got an ADC port, and you'll need to tape pins 3 and 11. Might just try for a 9200. That's a decent card.
Click to expand...
The 9200 doesn't support CI - a big problem if you're going to use Leopard on a machine this slow as the CPUs will be hit hard doing CI in software.
 
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What is "CI"?

I don't want to be taping pins, I've had very poor luck with that sort of thing.

Do there exist ADC-to-VGA adapters?
 
hunterjwizzard said:
What is "CI"?

I don't want to be taping pins, I've had very poor luck with that sort of thing.

Do there exist ADC-to-VGA adapters?
Click to expand...
CI is Core Image. It's not the same, but if you think Direct-X you'll get a rough idea.

Yes, there are ADC-VGA adapters. Unfortunately, on a G4 that supports ADC (such as your Mac) it's a little more complicated. With the G5 it's a simple adapter, but with the G4 it's a more expensive proposition.

Sorry, I don't seem to be of much help here. I've only run a narrow range of specific cards for my own Macs. Hopefully, someone who knows more of that in-depth can chime in.
 
If OP's machine is a GigE/Mystic, those were AGP-2X. I'm not aware of anyone having successfully used a taped Radeon 96xx G5 card (AGP-8X) in a 2X slot. In a 4X slot, yes (DA's, Quicksilvers. MDD's), but not 2X (Sawtooth & GigE/Mystic). I could be wrong, please correct me if I am!

OP, here's a pretty good breakdown of Core Image supporting cards for Power Mac G4's:

​
Those are all pretty pricey these days, except for perhaps the GeForce FX5200, which technically supports Core Image but doesn't do so very well.

If you want a cheaper option, I'd look for a Radeon 9000. It was the standard-issue card in the MDD line, and although it doesn't support Core Image, it seems to do well enough in 10.5 Leopard on MDD's and late-model Titanium PowerBooks to give a satisfactory experience. Radeon 9000's are also likely to be less expensive than any Core Image-capable card. In 10.4 Tiger I don't think you'd notice a difference for average usage.
[automerge]1590870173[/automerge]
I should note however, the Radeon 9000 Mac card does have one ADC and one DVI output, so all the problems relevant to using dual monitors and ADC output would still apply.
 
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Honestly I am less concerned about having dual monitors than just having something that works off-the-shelf. I don't need dual monitors that badly.

Is there anywhere within the software that I can check to give you all a better idea of exactly what hardware this machine is running?
 
You can find that in the OS X System Profiler; go to "About This Mac" in the Apple menu and click on "More Info", and it should pop right up.
 
James Gryphon said:
You can find that in the OS X System Profiler; go to "About This Mac" in the Apple menu and click on "More Info", and it should pop right up.
Click to expand...
^^^This.

In the Applications or Utilities folder there should also be an app called Grab. You can use that app to get a screenshot and then upload the screenshots here.
 
You can resolve the ADC to DVI problem with a simple passive adapter like this:

IMG_20200530_153314417.jpg
​
Going from a DVI output to an ADC display is a bigger problem, and requires a converter box with external power. But going from an ADC output to a DVI display is much simpler and only requires something similar to what you see above. Sounds like that's all you'd need, and you could use one of those even with the Rage 128 card you have now.

Adapter cables like that one can be hard to find, but they're usually not all that expensive. Check eBay, they turn up periodically. One of these would work with the Radeon 9000 card I suggested, and any other ADC-equipped card.
 
Ok so here's what I found:

Machine Name: PowerMac G4
Machine Model: PowerMac3,3
CPU Type: PowerPC G4 (2.9)
Number of CPUs: 2
CPU Speed: 450mhz
L2 Cache(per CPU): 1mb
Memory: 2GB
Bus Speed: 100mhz
Boot ROM Version: 3.3.4f1
Serial Number: XA1030DHJ3C
Sales Order Number: M7892LL/A

So after reading through that site I've figured I don't need a CI supporting card badly enough(it doesn't seem like there IS one that works off-the-shelf; only possible through modding/flashing).

The ADC to DVI adapter looks easy to find. Since I don't own an ADC display I don't really need to adapt an outside source to it :p I'll definitely grab an adapter.

On my quest for a graphics card, it seems I can't post links yet but I have 2 candidates. One is listed as " ATI Radeon 9000 Mac Edition 64MB Graphics Card For Mac G4" but doesn't have any details, so unsure if it'll work in mind. THe other is the aforementioned "working pull" from the next generation down. Not sure which one to pull the trigger on.
 
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