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The first working multi-touch display was APPLE. Therefore, APPLE invented this.

again.
wrong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-touch

they were the first to put a screen that was small enough into a cell phone (And nobody denies this, as far as I have seen), by way of purchasing a company who was already working on it (and arguably shopping it around to competitors at the time).

and please. once again. just because Apple was the first to use the tech in a phone doesn't mean they invented the Tech. i'm not sure how much easier I can say that.

maybe an example: I build a prototype for a device. it's all finished. I start shopping it around for licencing. However, Company A comes along and gives me a barillion bitcoins for ownership of that tech.

it doesn't mean that the company that purchased mine invented the technology. My company still did it. Even though it is now owned by that company.

But Multi touch screen technology dates way way way back before Apple was in the consumer gadget space.
 
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Lol well then I guess Android is for the people that know what they want. I sure as hell want choice at the very least.

If your CHOICE is to use iTunes to sync your phone, then Android does NOT give you that choice.

This whole 'CHOICE' thing with Android is bizarre. There's no such thing. Android vs. iOS gives you choice. Once you choose one or the other, choice is all gone, and you're stuck in that ecosystem.
 
again.
wrong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-touch

they were the first to put a screen that was small enough into a cell phone, by way of purchasing a company who was already working on it (and arguably shopping it around to competitors at the time)

But Multi touch screen technology dates way way way back before Apple was in the consumer gadget space.

Yup, and in no way did apple do any engineering to come up with a design suitable for cranking out millions of square feet of multitouch digitizers with response times that are still unrivaled right?

But hey, multi-touch is all the same right?
 
If ANY COMPANY released something FIRST, that actually WORKS, I credit them for INVENTING such technology.

No, they're only the first to leverage a technology successfully. That isn't invention.

For instance, Ford made the first widely successful motor vehicle, but Ford didn't invent the motor vehicle.

The first working multi-touch display was APPLE. Therefore, APPLE invented this.

No, the first capacitive touchscreen phone was the LG Prada, and capacitance based displays have been around since...god...the mid 80's? Hell, Microsoft had been goofing around with capacitance since the late 90's with the Surface kiosks. Jefferson Han had been experimenting with multitouch gestures for about forever, and was the first to show off pinch to zoom before the unveiling of the iPhone. Multitouch has been around for awhile.

Apple successfully used a technology for a mass market device, and are arguably directly responsible for it's current popularity. But they didn't invent it. Using something and inventing it are entirely separate things.
 
But Multi touch screen technology dates way way way back before Apple was in the consumer gadget space.

Not what I said at all.

The first WORKING multi-touch display. By that I mean USABLE.

Other companies invented the technology, but Apple perfected it.

I know that Apple didn't invent the hardware part of the technology, but they invented the WORKING, USABLE software piece to it. You are an Apple-hater who refuses to give Apple the credit they deserve.

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Apple successfully used a technology for a mass market device, but they didn't invent it. These are two entirely separate things.

Apple INVENTED the way we use our modern touchscreen phones.

The LG Prada, although it used a touchscreen, was not the in the same class of phones as the iPhone and every phone after it.

In the LG Prada, the screen was used simply for clicking. There were no swipes, pinches, gestures, or anything else - only a single press on graphical icons. Apple invented the new, modern way of using touch screens.
 
Apple INVENTED the way we use our modern touchscreen phones.

No, they didn't. Gestures and all that good stuff have been around forever now. Apple was just the first to release an affordable, mass market device that used them. They deserve props for that, but not sole credit for the concept.

The LG Prada, although it used a touchscreen, was not the in the same class of phones as the iPhone and every phone after it.

In the LG Prada, the screen was used simply for clicking. There were no swipes, pinches, gestures, or anything else - only a single press on graphical icons. Apple invented the new, modern way of using touch screens.

The Prada and the first iPhone were far more similar than dissimilar, though I will say the iPhone was the better designed of the two. Both laid the groundwork and leveraged technologies we now associate with the modern smartphone, but Apple went farther along with the idea than LG did.

The first WORKING multi-touch display. By that I mean USABLE.

Multitouch displays have been usable for years. Hell, Microsoft had the Surface on display at tons of test locations for people to play with a good bit before Apple released the iPhone. And it used 20-point touch display, not the 10 we're currently seeing in the iDevice line.

Apple didn't invent multi-touch, nor were they even the first to leverage it. They were just the most successful.

Edit: I'll use an analogy for you. Multitouch was a great big wave about to hit the consumer market in a great big way, and Apple was smart enough to ride the crest as it came onshore. But they weren't the reason the wave gained its initial momentum. A lot of other people had been stirring the ocean long before Apple, Google, or Microsoft decided to hop on.
 
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This is a crazy statement and completely untrue.

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Apple does the same with pretty much everything any other company is making that Apple is not. S-Pen for the Note 1,2,3 very successful, 7in-8in tablets which is the hottest selling size for all OEMs, bigger screens for phones.

Point is, all companies dismiss other companies when they come out with something they don't have. That's how you do business.


No its not a crazy statement at all. Suppose Apple had gone bust back in '97 or whatever. Take the iPhone out of the equation and what would you end up with? Devices which would be very much be like the Blackberry. The majority would still have physical keyboards, perhaps some touch controls, but keyboards would still be dominant on smart phones. This article also proves my point to some extent, the iPhone had Google so worried they changed their approach with Android. Without an iPhone what is in this article is very close to what would have been released.
 
Not what I said at all.

The first WORKING multi-touch display. By that I mean USABLE.

Other companies invented the technology, but Apple perfected it.

I know that Apple didn't invent the hardware part of the technology, but they invented the WORKING, USABLE software piece to it. You are an Apple-hater who refuses to give Apple the credit they deserve.

----------



Apple INVENTED the way we use our modern touchscreen phones.

The LG Prada, although it used a touchscreen, was not the in the same class of phones as the iPhone and every phone after it.

In the LG Prada, the screen was used simply for clicking. There were no swipes, pinches, gestures, or anything else - only a single press on graphical icons. Apple invented the new, modern way of using touch screens.
now you're doing the preverbial "changing the goalposts" and changing the qualifications to your statement.

nobody said apple didn't make it actually useable in real world and didnt change the course of history as it occured.

Apple software absolutely made the inclusions of Capacitive touch usuable in a small scale device.

They still didnt invent the technology of the screen or capacitive touch. Not even the touch hardware itself that was in the iphone. again, that was still

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No, they didn't. Gestures and all that good stuff have been around forever now. Apple was just the first to release an affordable, mass market device that used them. They deserve props for that, but not sole credit for the concept.



The Prada and the first iPhone were far more similar than dissimilar, though I will say the iPhone was the better designed of the two. Both laid the groundwork and leveraged technologies we now associate with the modern smartphone, but Apple went farther along with the idea than LG did.



Multitouch displays have been usable for years. Hell, Microsoft had the Surface on display at tons of test locations for people to play with a good bit before Apple released the iPhone. And it used 20-point touch display, not the 10 we're currently seeing in the iDevice line.

Apple didn't invent multi-touch, nor were they even the first to leverage it. They were just the most successful.

Edit: I'll use an analogy for you. Multitouch was a great big wave about to hit the consumer market in a great big way, and Apple was smart enough to ride the crest as it came onshore. But they weren't the reason the wave gained its initial momentum. A lot of other people had been stirring the ocean long before Apple, Google, or Microsoft decided to hop on.

man, I remember in the late 90's, early 00's , Microsoft showcasing multi touch tabletops. They dubbed em "surface" (Long Long before the device we have today). They featured 10 digit (i think they even had a multi user one for 20 digit use) demos too. they were cool! using your hands as natural imput to drag and drop, expand items with pinching and zooming hand genstures. it was amazing. I wanted one, I wanted them allover the house and i wanted one in my pocket!

Yes, Apple was the first to make that a reality. but they didnt invent the concept of multi touch. They didnt invent the actual technologies. But they sure as hell made it affordable and accessible to the masses. And as an owner of many Apple products over the years too, I love them for it. I still use my first generation ipod Touch as an MP3 player.
 
Multitouch displays have been usable for years. Hell, Microsoft had the Surface on display at tons of test locations for people to play with a good bit before Apple released the iPhone. And it used 20-point touch display, not the 10 we're currently seeing in the iDevice line.

IR camera based. Implementation matters
 
No its not a crazy statement at all. Suppose Apple had gone bust back in '97 or whatever. Take the iPhone out of the equation and what would you end up with? Devices which would be very much be like the Blackberry. The majority would still have physical keyboards, perhaps some touch controls, but keyboards would still be dominant on smart phones. This article also proves my point to some extent, the iPhone had Google so worried they changed their approach with Android. Without an iPhone what is in this article is very close to what would have been released.

you dont know that. i dont know that

All we know is that at the time of the iphone's development other companies were developing Capacitive multi touch displays too in some functionality or another. Apple didnt come up with the idea completely from the void. they, along with everyone else were directed that way by the market and technological limitations that were steadily being raised because of advancement.

heck, for all we know, Apple has locked us into the mindset of All screen devices and we're missing even better interface types because of the money focused here instead of elsewhere :p

I dont like playing the "what if" game. if you want to believe in the multiverse thoery there are an infinite amount of options to an infinite amount of worlds... or as Terry Pratchet says - “Life could be horrible in the wrong trouser of time.”

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IR camera based. Implementation matters

yes it does.

but the statements that we're refuting didnt say that. bbeagle said

The first WORKING multi-touch display. By that I mean USABLE.

Noow, if he qualifed the statement to say "The first working multi-touch capacitive screen in a mobile cellular device"...

I can't refute that. he could very well be right (i'm not 100% to be honest)

but so far he said they're the first capacitive screen. then when we showed him he was wrong

he said it was the first multi touch screen... which was also wrong

if he wants to be right, he needs to qualify his statements properly else look the fool.
 
IR camera based. Implementation matters

Yeah, it was IR based, which means it would've been too bulky to use in a small handheld device the size of the iPhone. But it still used gestures, motions, and multipoint tracking a good while before 2007.

It was a different means to achieve the same ends. Capacitance became the standard, but even that wasn't invented nor first used by Apple.
 
Yeah, it was IR based, which means it would've been too bulky to use in a small handheld device the size of the iPhone. But it still used gestures, motions, and multipoint tracking a good while before 2007.

It was a different means to achieve the same ends. Capacitance became the standard, but even that wasn't invented nor first used by Apple.

I take it you don't count manufacturing processes as worthy of an "invention" label.

I'd like to see next year when everyone is screaming about liquid metal that apple didn't change the game in manufacturing with their upcoming products.

Have you seen anyone "grow" liquid metal on an industrial scale before? ;)
 
Of course, it was not the first touch "device" with a finger oriented UI. There had been plenty of those in other fields.

I think what you meant was first smartphone with a UI designed for touch.

However, even that honor must go to what was also the first smartphone in the world, the 1994 IBM Simon.

View attachment 452615

View attachment 452616

Of course, it was ahead of its time. After that, there were other all-touch smartphones, both concept and commercial. Big buttons, slide to unlock, orientation sensors, all black front, you name it, it was done.

Hmm. I think that what the iPhone did most differently (besides being from a well liked and known company), was that it included a fun factor that more function oriented phone designers had eschewed. I don't know how else to put it. For example, flick scrolling was well known, but other designers still used scrollbars, because they made more sense for long documents... and still do. It defied common sense to get rid of them as a primary list navigation method. Yet Apple did.

Thoughts?

Sorta. Most certainly, many of the individual fun things existed well before the iPhone.
But the "fun factor," as you call it, was not the reason for the iPhone's success.

What makes Apple different from all the other companies that tried before is that Apple's engineering and design teams actually understand how people interact with technology. They take the time to understand that in order for people to learn technology, they require a tight feedback loop to learn from. And therefore the experience of interacting with an unfamiliar device determines how likely the adoption of the new technology would succeed.

To get this feedback loop:
1) you need to first make it easy for the user to target interactive widgets. (touchscreen sensitivity, spacing, and widget size matter)
2) You then need these widgets to respond instantly to the user's interaction. (such as button press highlights)
3) Finally, you need the results of your interaction to show whatever state change occurred. (list scrolling, fading in/out selection, animated transitions)
4) And to extend that, widgets that visually hint at how they'll react help the user see what's coming. (that date picker thing, named back/forward arrow buttons in the navigation stack, toggle switch, etc.)

All of these things have been done before on some small scale just because they were cute and flashy on their own.
Apple was different by promoted these concepts from easter egg-class demos of programming prowess into a consistent mandate across the entire UI. By doing so, it wasn't just a cute gimmick anymore, it became a teaching tool. And by providing a less frustrating experience, a competitive advantage.

Just the simple matter of deciding how to lay out widgets demonstrates when a designer understands. Try Google Play Music on Android 4. Note how often you'll hit the wrong widget when trying to pause/play and jump to a particular section of music. Note how much easier it is to use iOS6's iPod app. (iOS7's iPod app is worse than iOS6, and marginally better than Play Music on Android 4.)

Flick scrolling with acceleration versus scrollbars with regards to long documents are an example that doesn't make sense.
If a UI designer and an engineer thought it through far enough, they'd realize that document length shouldn't be part of the question. There just wasn't any data transfer method available back then to provide a long enough document to a wireless device to matter. Nor is there any reason that a user would know beforehand how far to scroll.

Scrollbars provide great feedback in that when you interact with the handle, it moves both the handle and text, thereby tying the two actions together. It's nice that it even tells you where in the document you've scrolled to. The downside is that handles are small, and therefore not suitable for finger interaction. (Great for stylus!)
Flick scrolling provides a larger interaction target by allowing the entire scrolled document to function as a relative handle. The downside is that quality of experience and feedback depends on fast low-latency rendering. (if you go back to older OSs and play with scrolling, you'll find that in most cases, the scrolling is done by line heights of 10s of pixels rather than per pixel. This makes it a coarser scroll, but easier to render)

Most engineers and companies, when faced with the decision to use an existing GUI rendering engine or rewrite to make a high performance one, will use the existing engine. Despite all the smart people at Google and Microsoft, this didn't happen until Windows Phone 7 and later, Android 4.

If a team at IBM were assembled in 2006 to build the Simon with 2006 technologies, I have little doubt that they would ship something akin to the LG Prada instead of the iPhone.
 
Heck yeah :) It was in a different class than the PDA models your pictures show.

I'm talking about the clamshell version running Handheld PC 2000, which was Windows CE not Windows Mobile. Kept it in my inside jacket pocket.

I had a CDPD wireless modem in it, giving it 19 Kbps wireless capability. High tech in 2001.

Being Windows CE, it had a desktop with taskbar and full IE 4.0, not the crippled Pocket IE of Windows Mobile. (Microsoft's dumbest move ever.) Surfing the web on it was much better than anything else for a long time, as websites of the time were IE 4 and 640 wide compatible. There was no need for constant zooming and horizontal scrolling.

By the time the iPhone came out, we were using IE6 on WinCE 5, which was a powerful combination. Of course, the thought at the time was that everything had to be ruggedized and customized, so our tablets and handhelds were pretty expensive and not known at all in the consumer realm.

I remember those! Yeah, the widescreen Jornada was quite unique. Considered getting one back then one of the reasons you mentioned: having the pixel width of a desktop screen, but portable.

Same thing that intrigued me about the Nokia N810 too.

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The time was ripe. All throughout 2006, concept all-touch phones were being shown everywhere. Capacitive and multi-touch were hot topics, the former because of Synaptics and the latter because of Jeff Han's TED demo.

If I recall, pretty much every one of the all-touch concept phones were NOT multi-touch. Likewise, many of the released phones too. While interest in multi-touch was high, no prototypes actually used it.
I believe we've discussed this before sometime ago?
 
I agree.

Image

Start over again, Apple.

Shortsighted.

You do realize that HTC's app switcher and iOS7 app switcher are copied from webOS, right?

Both lock screens you show are copied from iPhone OS 1.0, just poorer usability.

And the music apps? Copied from iTunes Store on the desktop.

Finally, the controls drawers? Reminds me of Newton OS 1.0 and Windows Pocket PC. Now with color and gradients!
 
Please stop using the term "flaming" if you don't know what it is. I never insulted anybody and you did.

Shows exactly how much you're familiar with Android that you used a picture of the music player as it was a year ago. Please use more research.

You're clearly blindly defending what has already been widely established as copycat redesign. And to back that already weak point up, you post outdated pictures and make invalid arguments. Nobody's convinced. And I'm personally not even convinced that you have Android phones or tried them sufficiently if you don't even know what the music app looks like.

Not intending to be rude but I'm kind of wasting my time trying to argue for a fact. I understand that this is after all MacRumors so naturally there's a high concentration of Apple fans, but I won't argue with somebody who's not willing to live and choose with an open mind. Your fishing for ways to try to make iOS 7 look original in any way isn't convincing and I'm backing out because this is a bit of a faff and very little more.

It's funny how you grill somebody about defending copycat redesign, yet so are you.

By the way, since you seemed bent on making it an iOS vs Android thing, might as well point something else out. He might have done you a favor by showing off the old Android music app as the 4.x one is so much worse in terms of usability.
 
No, the first capacitive touchscreen phone was the LG Prada, and capacitance based displays have been around since...god...the mid 80's? Hell, Microsoft had been goofing around with capacitance since the late 90's with the Surface kiosks. Jefferson Han had been experimenting with multitouch gestures for about forever, and was the first to show off pinch to zoom before the unveiling of the iPhone. Multitouch has been around for awhile.

Just for correctness.

kdarling has given examples of capacitive touchscreen phones that predate the LG Prada. Most are concept phones, but working prototypes.

Capacitive touchscreens themselves, according to wikipedia, date back to the 1960s. However, multi-touch capacitive touchscreens are much much newer.

Microsoft Surface/PixelSense IS multi-touch, but IS NOT capacitive. They're camera-based, if I recall correctly.
 
It's funny how you grill somebody about defending copycat redesign, yet so are you.

By the way, since you seemed bent on making it an iOS vs Android thing, might as well point something else out. He might have done you a favor by showing off the old Android music app as the 4.x one is so much worse in terms of usability.

The 4.x music app is just fine. :) Nice to have a choice though...
 
A very short history of multi-touch and capacitive

multitouch_history.png

Capacitive based touch systems date back to at least 1965.

The first multi-touch capacitive input on a screen was demonstrated by Bob Boie at Bell Labs, in 1984.

By the 1990s, capacitive screens were in use in many fields, especially where protection against sharp objects (i.e. vandalism) was important. (That's why we used them in casino gaming equipment back in 1992.) More than a half dozen major companies made such sensors, mostly for normal to large sized displays. However, they were also available for handhelds, along with other customized features like backheaters for LCDs used in very cold climates.

When Apple needed a multi-touch projected capacitance screen in 2006, probably only Synaptics and a Taiwanese company called TPK had the ability to ramp up enough production for a small screen. An established German company called Balda had bought half of TPK in 2006, and made a deal with Apple to supply the iPhone's original touchscreen.

Correspondingly, Apple had bought Fingerworks in 2005, which was doing multi-touch on opaque surfaces like keyboards. I.e. none of their patents related to touch displays. However, their gesture recognition research was probably helpful when making the custom software for the controller chip they used from (oh darn, can't remember right now).

Apple's custom touch controller software trades off being accurate in the middle, with losing accuracy near the edges:

touchscreen_accuracy.png
 
Basic finger friendly design principles

What makes Apple different from all the other companies that tried before is that Apple's engineering and design teams actually understand how people interact with technology.
...

You're right about what is needed, but everything you mentioned about target size, response, effects etc was well researched and documented to anyone working in the touch field for the past decade or two.

You're also right that Apple enforced those rules, but so should anyone who wants to go all-finger.

Other touch items that were also known:

  • Flick scrolling
  • Slide-to-unlock
  • Animated window transitions
  • Context sensitive popup keyboards
  • Orientation sensitive displays
  • Double tap browser zoom
  • Multitouch pinch

All of these things have been done before on some small scale just because they were cute and flashy on their own.

They'd all been taken more seriously on field instrumentation, technician handhelds, and in industrial touch controls in use since the 1980s. Not to mention later with ATMs and casino entertainment systems. Oh, and even home control systems like Crestron touch panels.

Heck, industrial touch panels alone had pretty much invented the idea of a skeuomorphic touch UI, with inputs and outputs that tried to emulate the older mechanical controls:

industrial_sliders.png

In fact, it was an old industrial UI slide switch design that made a Dutch judge throw out Apple's slide-to-unlock claim in a lawsuit. To him, Apple's design was simply a prettier version of the same thing.

Flick scrolling with acceleration versus scrollbars with regards to long documents are an example that doesn't make sense.

And still doesn't :)

Btw, inertial (flick) scrolling is repeatedly accidentally invented by almost any low level touch programmer... as a bug!

What happens is that their first attempt at having the list follow the finger, gets behind, and thus the list continues to scroll after the finger is lifted. Now, some programmers simply fix their code. Others show it to someone who thinks it's cool ! (Like Jobs did.)
 
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And still doesn't :)

Btw, inertial (flick) scrolling is repeatedly accidentally invented by almost any low level touch programmer... as a bug!

What happens is that their first attempt at having the list follow the finger, gets behind, and thus the list continues to scroll after the finger is lifted. Now, some programmers simply fix their code. Others show it to someone who thinks it's cool !

Cuz it is cool, damnit! I love flick scrolling. If I want to get to a specific part in a long document quickly, I just *flick*, watch it scroll, then put my finger down when I start getting near to where I want to go.

It's the greatest thing ever.
 
Cuz it is cool, damnit! I love flick scrolling. If I want to get to a specific part in a long document quickly, I just *flick*, watch it scroll, then put my finger down when I start getting near to where I want to go.

Oh it's fun. It's just not always fast enough for me :)

When I'm scrolling through 500 channels on the Optimum app and want to go to channel 300+, I always grab the scrollbar thumb and zip directly to where I need to go.

Ditto for any other long document where the app puts up a thumb I can grab.

Flick scroller was easier with my old Incredible, because I could just slightly flick my thumb across the optical trackpad. So much more ergonomic. I think that's why we just saw that Apple patent for using the fingerprint sensor as a quick scrollpad. It just makes sense to not have to move too much.
 
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