Angry because Apple won't replace broken ATI 4870 under warranty (solved)

[cjmillsnun]

My 2006 Mac Pro is artificially obsolete by Apple.

With OS X:
I can't run Snow Leopard's 64bit kernel.
I can't buy any current video cards.
Games run like crap in Mac OS X (due to bad ports)

Do you need to run the 64 bit Kernel? I can't run it on my 2009 MacBook either (unless I hack with boot.efi - Netkas offers a similar solution for the Mac Pro 1,1), but that doesn't matter. 64 bit applications will still run in full 64 bit even with the 32 bit kernel.

Video cards I completely agree with you on. I think Apple should rethink this as a bare minimum. You bought the M-P based on it's upgradability, and not being able to change the graphics card to todays technology quite frankly sucks.

As you say games run like crap because they are bad ports of Windows games.

With Windows 7
I can boot and run true 64bit Windows 7 with no restrictions.
I can use any PCIe video card I want.
I have a huge selection in games that run 10x better on the same video card. (no stutters at all with max settings on).
It pains me greatly to say that my computer is a better PC than it is a Mac. I hate, hate, hate Windows, so I'll keep using Mac OS X, but it's sad that Apple had to go and stop producing graphics cards or firmware updates to keep these machines going strong.

Anyone else coming to this sad realization? Thoughts?

 

[TheStrudel]

That's how I feel. I bought this computer and I want to buy a 24" LED display for it, but Apple doesn't sell a card that will work with those.

If by doesn't sell, you mean "Officially supports," then yes, you're right. There's the 4870, and I think the GT 120 shipping in new Mac Pros also works out-of-the-box as tested by a few websites. Of course, since its performance is not stellar, most people aren't bothering with it.

, of course, can't completely fix the graphics card problem unless they undertake writing a ton more drivers and EFI parts. What you really want is more companies such as EVGA to release Mac editions. The only ways  can fix this is to either encourage more companies to write drivers and EFI ROMs (Since Macs are not using BIOS, for good reason! It's antiquated and has arbitrary limitations) or do it themselves, which really makes no sense from an economics standpoint. Also, 's drivers have proven less than stellar anyway. Maybe as the x86 PC industry eventually shifts to UEFI we'll have more options, but who can say?

06 Mac Pros got shafted on 32-bit EFI, 09 Mac Pros got shafted on price and SATA throughput. Write feedback to  and hope that things improve with the '10 models. I will say this: we have never had so many choices in terms of graphics cards than ever before, and EVGA's GTX 285 is completely new and unprecedented. All we ever had previously were the ATI/Nvidia cards that shipped and precious few ATI aftermarket upgrades. Now seems like a very funny time to complain about a lack of options, really.

I know, we're just bummed because they now seem just like normal PCs because they're running x86. But there are a few things that keep that from being strictly true, and EFI is one of them.

 

[TheSpaz]

The HD4870 works in the EFI32 based systems (it uses EBC based firmware, not EFI), despite Apple's claim it won't. What they won't do, is support it's warranty, as it's not an officially supported system with that card.

But it will actually work, and it has a Mini DisplayPort on it, so you can get the 24" LEC ACD. So in this instance, there is a way to do what you want. Just a bit on the pricey side, and no warranty for the card.

Like I said earlier. I have an official Apple ATI 4870 that doesn't work correctly anymore. It broke. Apple won't replace it (just as you said) and I really don't wanna take my chances by buying another one. I can't keep spending $400 every 6 months just to keep a $900 display working.

Also, someone else asked me why I'm so worried about 64bit EFI because I won't notice much of a difference with a 64bit kernel. It's not necessarily about the 64bit kernel, it's about new graphics cards only being compatible with 64bit EFI.

I'm probably over-reacting… I just want my freaking 4870 back, but I don't wanna buy another one This suuuuucks!

All these people wanna complain about not getting true 64-bit blah blah.. When the vast majority honestly could not even tell the difference, they just get upset thinking about it. When did you buy your system Spaz? So it's not fully supported by apple anymore, it doesn't mean you can't upgrade it still. If you want a new display then buy a new video card for it. expandable means upgradable for quite a few years, NOT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE... sorry, but no one will immediately sympathize with you because we are still getting great mileage out of our 1,1 Mac pros. Though some may gripe about 64-bit, unless you are a true power user, you have yet to even utilize the 32-bit kernel to its max potential.

It's not about NOT being able to use the 64bit kernel at this moment. There's 2 reasons why I wish I had a 64bit EFI. Count them:

1. There would be more compatible graphics cards for it (and being able to use the Apple LED display)
2. The ability to upgrade to the newest Mac OS X once Apple decides to drop the 32bit kernel.

I can't use a new LED Apple display because Apple doesn't officially support the 4870 on my machine. I thought I mentioned that enough times already.

 

[nanofrog]

Like I said earlier. I have an official Apple ATI 4870 that doesn't work correctly anymore. It broke. Apple won't replace it (just as you said) and I really don't wanna take my chances by buying another one. I can't keep spending $400 every 6 months just to keep a $900 display working.

I'm thinking you just got a lemon (cooked itself to death, which is quite possible if it was run hardish, and there was too much TIM between the GPU and cooler for example).

Also, someone else asked me why I'm so worried about 64bit EFI because I won't notice much of a difference with a 64bit kernel. It's not necessarily about the 64bit kernel, it's about new graphics cards only being compatible with 64bit EFI.

Understandable. As it happens, ATI cards will continue to work so long as they stick to EBC based firmware, so the 5870 should actually work (assuming Apple sticks to the recent trend of using ATI, and given nVidia's position ATM, I think quite likely). They've even used MDP on one already, and can flash it, as is possible with some existing cards.

But officially, you're done as far as Apple's concerned.

I'm probably over-reacting… I just want my freaking 4870 back, but I don't wanna buy another one This suuuuucks!

Yes and No. You're stuck with a system that Apple's not interested in supporting any longer. It's a bit of a hard truth, and the length of time Apple's supporting MP's these days is horrible. But there's nothing you can do about that.

So you either deal with the work-arounds, or get a new machine.

 

[TheSpaz]

So you either deal with the work-arounds, or get a new machine.

That's the part that sucks. All Apple has to do to please me is edit one little line on their website under the picture of the 4870.

"Compatible with all Mac Pros"

That's ALL they have to say! Is there anything weird about the 4870 that would make it fry if you put it in a first gen Mac Pro? I doubt it! It's just like any other card. The case didn't change all that much between the 2007 Mac Pro and the 2008 Mac Pro did it? Why would they not support the 4870 in 2006-2007 machines?

It's so annoying. It's such a SIMPLE fix that would have made all of my complaining pretty pointless. I'd be running Snow Leopard still just fine. I'd be running a brand new 24" LED display and I'd have a working 4870 due to a replacement from Apple.

I wonder if I can get a serial number from a 2008 Mac Pro and call Apple to see if they'll replace my card if I told them it came from THAT machine.

Hmmmm… That's an idea.

 

[nanofrog]

That's the part that sucks. All Apple has to do to please me is edit one little line on their website under the picture of the 4870.

"Compatible with all Mac Pros"

That's ALL they have to say! Is there anything weird about the 4870 that would make it fry if you put it in a first gen Mac Pro? I doubt it! It's just like any other card. The case didn't change all that much between the 2007 Mac Pro and the 2008 Mac Pro did it? Why would they not support the 4870 in 2006-2007 machines?

It's so annoying. It's such a SIMPLE fix that would have made all of my complaining pretty pointless. I'd be running Snow Leopard still just fine. I'd be running a brand new 24" LED display and I'd have a working 4870 due to a replacement from Apple.

I wonder if I can get a serial number from a 2008 Mac Pro and call Apple to see if they'll replace my card if I told them it came from THAT machine.

Hmmmm… That's an idea.

There's a reason for it though, and it's to do with GPGPU processing used in SL. The 4870 is capable of double precision Floating Point calculations, but since the system is only EFI32, will only work in Single Precision.

It's a transistion phase that was forced by Apple's decision to use EFI32 when they made the Intel switch. But as they make $$$ on hardware, they're not going to go back and support the older systems with an EFI64 update.

 

[akadmon]

I wonder if I can get a serial number from a 2008 Mac Pro and call Apple to see if they'll replace my card if I told them it came from THAT machine.

Hmmmm… That's an idea.

It's been mentioned before

 

[TheSpaz]

It's been mentioned before

Yeah… not as easy as it sounds. How do I get someone to tell me the serial number of their Mac? They're gonna think I'm going to do something evil.

 

[Nostromo]

It's unbelievable how fast that computer feels when you do NOT use Apple's operating systems on it.

Whoa! You guys deserve to get an upgrade by Apple for your machines!

 

[akadmon]

Yeah… not as easy as it sounds. How do I get someone to tell me the serial number of their Mac? They're gonna think I'm going to do something evil.

Well, I don't see any harm in this for them, so long as their MP is out of Apple Care. Apple will have no business questioning how you came into possession of a machine that was originally sold to someone else (as they would if it was still under Apple Care).

I know you're in an awkward position to make this request yourself, so I'm going to do it for you. If anyone reading this owns a 2008 MP that is out of Apple Care, please PM the OP. If I had such a machine, I would. It's the right thing to do. And I hope someone will be willing to help me out if my Apple branded 4870 dies in the next 11 months.

EDIT:

I was able to find a SN of a 2008 MP online, but I'm not sure you'll want to use it. It's from a machine that was stolen in Germany earlier this year. The guy posted the SN in an attempt to find the thieves. Perhaps you can contact him and ask if he's recovered the machine.

http://happyhappyboy.de/Theft.html

 

[Max(IT)]

This thread, like others involving this user, seems to me only related to "game and 3dMark"
there is almost NOTHING you can't do with a 2006 Mac Pro, and will be the same in 2010, and probably in 2011 also. And we are speaking about a workstation from 2006. A good 5 years lifespan, and in a transition period like this (32->64 bit), seems to be fine to me.
Stop whining and keep USING your MP.
if you Are looking for a gamestation, you simply made a wrong choice.

 

[Pressure]

I am pretty sure you thought the 2006 Mac Pro rocked when you got it. But that is also nearly 4 years ago now. A lot have changed since then, especially in the technology world.

If gaming is of the upmost importance to you, why not get a console that is pretty much a dedicated entertainment center? Like the PS3 or Xbox360?

 

[TheSpaz]

I am pretty sure you thought the 2006 Mac Pro rocked when you got it. But that is also nearly 4 years ago now. A lot have changed since then, especially in the technology world.

If gaming is of the upmost importance to you, why not get a console that is pretty much a dedicated entertainment center? Like the PS3 or Xbox360?

Gaming isn't the most important thing to me, but lately I've been playing a lot of Left for Dead and Modern Warfare 2 cause they're fun. I find games to be easier to play on a computer system because it's much easier to move and aim with a mouse than a controller/joystick.

I don't wanna spend the money on a whole new PC system just to play 2 games on it... plus, I don't have anywhere to put a new system.

In other news... I have some good news for everybody. I contacted my local Apple Certified Dealer/Repair Shop and told them my story about the 4870 dying. They said that they might be able to get a replacement for me through Apple. Since they deal directly with Apple, it may be a bit easier for them to get a warranty replacement than one single customer. I explained to the guy that Apple wouldn't acknowledge my warranty because of the computer I was using, but he's still going to try to help me out. If I can get my 4870 back, I'll be a happy camper again.

 

[lbodnar]

It must be frustrating being an 06' Mac Pro owner in the sense that you're system cannot run SL in 64-bit mode which all it takes is a firmware update on behalf of Apple which would permit this to be done. However, it's clear that it has become a marketing strategy for Apple to persuade 06' and 07' users to purchase 2008-2009 Mac Pros. They even haven't officially supported these systems as being Win7 64-bit compatible with Bootcamp when in reality they are. Anyways I love Apple but just don't see why they would do such a thing to 06' MP users who at the time paid a premium for their systems.

Premium?! I still think 2006 MP was one of the best value for money deals from Apple (and anyone else at the time for that matter.) I love it and never felt limited in any way. I definitely got its money worth out of it and I still enjoy the benefits of using it! There is no need to mourn for 2006 MP owners because huge majority of us are happy 2006 MP owners.

 

[akadmon]

Premium?! I still think 2006 MP was one of the best value for money deals from Apple (and anyone else at the time for that matter.) I love it and never felt limited in any way. I definitely got its money worth out of it and I still enjoy the benefits of using it! There is no need to mourn for 2006 MP owners because huge majority of us are happy 2006 MP owners.

Count me in! I can easily see myself still happy with my '06 MP in a couple of years. By 2012 I will start looking for something new, but I doubt I will be in a big hurry even then. And yes, looking back on what Apple had in late '06 and the PC desktop market at that time, the 'O6 MP was a steal

 

[Max(IT)]

Premium?! I still think 2006 MP was one of the best value for money deals from Apple (and anyone else at the time for that matter.) I love it and never felt limited in any way. I definitely got its money worth out of it and I still enjoy the benefits of using it! There is no need to mourn for 2006 MP owners because huge majority of us are happy 2006 MP owners.

Count me in! I can easily see myself still happy with my '06 MP in a couple of years. By 2012 I will start looking for something new, but I doubt I will be in a big hurry even then. And yes, looking back on what Apple had in late '06 and the PC desktop market at that time, the 'O6 MP was a steal

You are correct.
Most people here don't even know what really means to boot with a "64bit kernel".
You don't need to have a "64bit kernel" to use 64bit applications under Snow leopard. It's mainly related with kext, and Apple's efforts to keep all applications compatible (you can't use kext32 under a 64bit kernel).

The only "limitation" here is the EFI32, but we're speaking of a 2006's computer.
So, much ado about nothing ...

 

[nanofrog]

You are correct.
Most people here don't even know what really means to boot with a "64bit kernel".
You don't need to have a "64bit kernel" to use 64bit applications under Snow leopard. It's mainly related with kext, and Apple's efforts to keep all applications compatible (you can't use kext32 under a 64bit kernel).

The only "limitation" here is the EFI32, but we're speaking of a 2006's computer.
So, much ado about nothing ...

It all comes down to useage. If the system's been used for scientific simulations, graphic design (i.e. 3D animation), or similar, the 64bit Kernel can matter. But for general use, and even photography, it's just fine, and appears will continue to be the case for some time yet.

So it's not a total waste of a system by any means. And the EFI32 systems can be re-purposed if possible. Even if it has to be swapped out to Windows use (which will allow users a 64 bit Kernel) if needed.

 

[sidewinder]

It all comes down to useage. If the system's been used for scientific simulations, graphic design (i.e. 3D animation), or similar, the 64bit Kernel can matter. But for general use, and even photography, it's just fine, and appears will continue to be the case for some time yet.

Can matter? In what specific situations??? What, exactly, is a 64-bit kernel going to provide that the 32-bit kernel does not? 64-bit apps run just fine.

The amount of RAM the system can use is all I see as an issue and even that is a non-issue for 99.5% of the 2006 Mac Pro users.

The OP is just a whining person that does not really think about things before he posts. Apple has not done him on any other 2006 Mac Pro any wrong.

S-

 

[nanofrog]

Can matter? In what specific situations??? What, exactly, is a 64-bit kernel going to provide that the 32-bit kernel does not? 64-bit apps run just fine.

The amount of RAM the system can use is all I see as an issue and even that is a non-issue for 99.5% of the 2006 Mac Pro users.

The OP is just a whining person that does not really think about things before he posts. Apple has not done him on any other 2006 Mac Pro any wrong.

S-

I'm not referring specifically to apps, but hardware. 64bit graphics cards certainly come to mind, and even for GPGPU calculations (if the software supports it). Keep in mind, the EFI32 systems are only good for single floating point precision with graphics cards.

That said, it's not applicable to every user, just some. Such users are going to have to update to a new system. The rest can go on happily with what they have.

 

[chrono1081]

Winni,

Your bias against Apple is so obvious and venomous that what you say must be almost completely ignored.

S-

+546764464646464646

I admit, Mac OS is my favorite out of all the OS's that I use but they each have their place and I use OSX, Windows, Linux, and BSD, but I dont go bashing Windows on the windows forums, I dont bash mac on the mac forums, etc.

 

[Max(IT)]

I'm not referring specifically to apps, but hardware. 64bit graphics cards certainly come to mind, and even for GPGPU calculations (if the software supports it). Keep in mind, the EFI32 systems are only good for single floating point precision with graphics cards.

That said, it's not applicable to every user, just some. Such users are going to have to update to a new system. The rest can go on happily with what they have.

You are referring at a specific kind of user that needs a lot of computational power and an high-end vga card for professional use. That kind of user is going to change his workstation every 3 years anyway.
This seems to me quite different from the OP's whining

 

[nanofrog]

You are referring at a specific kind of user that needs a lot of computational power and an high-end vga card for professional use. That kind of user is going to change his workstation every 3 years anyway.
This seems to me quite different from the OP's whining

I'm more accustomed to video/graphics editors here on MR truly needing power, and simulations in my own use. So it's workstations used for what they're meant for, definitely not a consumer system by any means.

That said, I've been able to get workstations to last 5 years with the proper upgrades (i.e. memory, graphics, RAID,...) to keep up with newer software. Once it's useless for that purpose, then it has to be replaced for that task, but may be able to be re-purposed to another use (or sold off to someone that has such a use suitable for that systems's performance).

The rest of it is more psychological IMO, as even when it can't take OS X updates do to the K64 only versions, it's not yet ready to be used as a doorstop. It's still good for browsing, playing movies, as well as other things. It will even still be a good photography system, as the software is so far behind the hardware, the age doesn't yet matter. It's still usable.

 

[sidewinder]

I'm not referring specifically to apps, but hardware. 64bit graphics cards certainly come to mind, and even for GPGPU calculations (if the software supports it). Keep in mind, the EFI32 systems are only good for single floating point precision with graphics cards.

That said, it's not applicable to every user, just some. Such users are going to have to update to a new system. The rest can go on happily with what they have.

You are referring at a specific kind of user that needs a lot of computational power and an high-end vga card for professional use. That kind of user is going to change his workstation every 3 years anyway.
This seems to me quite different from the OP's whining

Bingo!!! Maybe they change every 2 years if there is a significant increase in system horsepower.

The bottom line is anyone that actually needs the power is not going to keep a system long enough for what is being whined about here to be an issue. Those they don't need the power are going to be just fine with the 32-bit kernel.

Heck, there are many people out there using Tiger that are happy as a cat!

S-

 

[sidewinder]

That said, I've been able to get workstations to last 5 years with the proper upgrades (i.e. memory, graphics, RAID,...) to keep up with newer software. Once it's useless for that purpose, then it has to be replaced for that task, but may be able to be re-purposed to another use (or sold off to someone that has such a use suitable for that systems's performance).

You are not living in the real world. No one that makes money on a workstation is going to keep a workstation on the front line for 5 years. System performance at least doubles and more likely triples in that time. Time is money. So 3 years is usually about it. The system may be sold, re-purposed, or used for it's original function. But not for time critical work.

The rest of it is more psychological IMO, as even when it can't take OS X updates do to the K64 only versions, it's not yet ready to be used as a doorstop. It's still good for browsing, playing movies, as well as other things. It will even still be a good photography system, as the software is so far behind the hardware, the age doesn't yet matter. It's still usable.

Hold on there. It is still useful for what ever the original purchaser bought it to do. It just won't be as capable as the new systems that come out. The system has not slowed down or lost any function. It's just not a new system.

I can pretty much guarantee that the OP is not stressing the current system other than to play games. Which it was not good at when he bought it.

S-

 

[emt377]

No, I'm saying that for a pro machine, it had a pretty quick life. Why can I run full 64bit Windows but not 64bit Snow Leopard? From what I understand, there are also some Macs that HAVE a 64bit EFI and STILL won't boot into 64bit Snow Leopard (with 64bit kernel).

Since a 32-bit OS X kernel can run 64-bit executables, and very little computation is done in Unix kernels (unlike Windows), most of the benefit of the improved architecture is already realized. This is unlike Win7 where a 32-bit kernel can't run 64-bit executables - so backporting Win7 kernel mode address space management and chipset drivers to legacy hardware is a necessity to sell it. For OS X I'm sure Apple can find more worthwhile things to spend their resources on.