Another Fairplay Threat?

[arn]

I'm surprised how many people are interpreting this wrong.

The point of this is that Amazon can go to this new company and license Fairplay-compatable DRM. That way they can sell movies/music on their website (Unbox) and sell it with DRM that is iPod/iTV/iTunes Compatible.

This could mean, for example, Napster could be iTunes/iPod compatible.

Or Vongo (unlimited movie downloads $9.95/month) could be iPod compatible.

Personally, I'm not sure how long it will go. Either Apple will shut them down (if legally capable) or simply start licensing Fairplay themselves and cut out the middleman (which could be an inadvertant positive result of this effort)

OR

[edit: as pointed out below, this is probably not possible]
Microsoft licenses it so Zune can play iTunes Music/Movie store content. That could be a huge boost for Zune.

arn

 

[balamw]

The point of this is that Amazon can go to this new company and license Fairplay-compatable DRM. That way they can sell movies/music on their website (Unbox) and sell it with DRM that is iPod/iTV/iTunes Compatible.

The problem is that I don't see how it can be iTunes compatible without Apple's involvement. (See above post on Real Harmony). iTunes will only query ITMS for validating a DRMed file, not DoubleTwist or Amazon. Without iTunes things get a lot less compelling.

B

 

[arn]

The problem is that I don't see how it can be iTunes compatible without Apple's involvement. (See above post on Real Harmony). iTunes will only query ITMS for validating a DRMed file, not DoubleTwist or Amazon. Without iTunes things get a lot less compelling.

B

perhaps true... but depends on how it works. if it's just tied to an email address, if they can encode that same email address into the files, it would probably work. Alternatively, it could also mean that someone could come out with a non-iTunes media player that doesn't validate against a server.

arn

 

[balamw]

perhaps true... but depends on how it works. if it's just tied to an email address, if they can encode that same email address into the files, it would probably work. Alternatively, it could also mean that someone could come out with a non-iTunes media player that doesn't validate against a server.

Maybe they should just work with Rockbox and make a third party firmware that opens up the iPod to a new open DRM and forget Fairplay compatibility...

(Note, like the Airport Express, the iTV may be an easier nut to crack than iPod+iTunes).

B

 

[bluebomberman]

When will this hacking nerd do something REALLY positive and productive to the world?

Last time I heard, his occupation was to break into companies' IPR without any legal permission to do so...not commendable, to say the least.

Well, he currently eyeing selling the tech to companies, presumably some of which are willing to spend big bucks to jam their way into the iPod + iTunes ecosphere. At least now, it's clear it's mostly about making moola.

 

[arn]

Maybe they should just work with Rockbox and make a third party firmware that opens up the iPod to a new open DRM and forget Fairplay compatibility...

But what's the point of that? So a few geeks can hack their iPod to play whatever?

Opening Fairplay to other companies opens the iPod to other services. The biggest risk to Apple is the opening of Fairplay to other MP3 manufacturers.

Besides... the more I think about it, the more I don't see why iTunes wouldn't play the compatible Fairplay songs. Apple can't make any major changes to the existing DRM in files to break compatible Fairplay files.... since they would have then have to reencode all of those files sitting on people's hard drives.

arn

 

[gnasher729]

This isn't a consumer-end hack, it is a retailer-end re-implementation of Fairplay (presumably clean room) for interoperability purposes (legal in Europe, I don't know about the USoA since the DMCA etc).

The DMCA would have nothing to do with this. This doesn't remove any copy prevention, it adds it. I just can't see what anyone would want to do with this technology. The only scenario that makes sense: If you are a music band without any record contract, and the iTunes Music Store refuses to sell your music, you could use software like this to add Fairplay DRM to your music, and you could offer the music on your webpage and sell it to anyone who uses iTunes - which would be about 90 percent of all people who are interested in music and computers at all. Of course you could sell the music without any DRM.

 

[milo]

DVD Jon had previously circumvented Fairplay's DRM in 2003, and since then multiple other tools have appeared to provide similar functionality for updated versions of Quicktime/iTunes. Jon is also credited for developing an algorithm named deCSS to strip a DVD of its encryption (called Content Scrambling System, or CSS), hence his nickname.

Similar for updated iTunes? Is there something that hacks the DCC in recent/current versions of iTunes? I thought they broke a few versions back and recent DRM hasn't been hacked.

They sued over the asteroid thing, and that wasn't even a new idea. Tons of devices do what the asteroid was going to do.

They sued over the release of specific inside information. It doesn't have to be a "new idea" for product info to have value.

Apple is still committed to DRM. When they offer Apple Lossless files for download with CD-writing still enabled then I'll accept that Apple is DRM-ambivalent. Right now they aren't. And with $2 TV shows the bandwidth argument no longer holds water.

Of course they're committed. The issue isn't bandwidth, it's that it's a condition the content owners insist on in exchange for apple being able to sell their product.

The iTunes music store would probably disappear or gradually fade away but then, Apple doesn't make the bulk of their money off that anyway and perhaps the FairPlay licensing money would cover that loss. Think of the iPod with hundreds of licensed content providers out there trying to outdo each other. I can't imagine why Apple hasn't done it yet.

It's obvious why. The biggest selling point for both iTunes and iPod is the ease of integration. With other online stores, you have users who have problems getting music onto their iPod, and end up angry and blame the iPod. Apple isn't willing to risk letting that user experience degrade.

 

[bluebomberman]

...the more I think about it, the more I don't see why iTunes wouldn't play the compatible Fairplay songs. Apple can't make any major changes to the existing DRM in files to break compatible Fairplay files.... since they would have then have to reencode all of those files sitting on people's hard drives.

arn

Maybe Apple could do a Fairplay "freeze" where all Fairplay v2 media purchased after a certain date is deemed invalid by iPod + iTunes.

Not that Apple would automatically do such a thing...way I see it, we're all heading towards murky waters as crappy tech companies (Real, Microsoft, etc.) try to jam their way into Apple's iPod + iTunes ecosphere.

The only scenario that makes sense: If you are a music band without any record contract, and the iTunes Music Store refuses to sell your music, you could use software like this to add Fairplay DRM to your music, and you could offer the music on your webpage and sell it to anyone who uses iTunes - which would be about 90 percent of all people who are interested in music and computers at all. Of course you could sell the music without any DRM.

I can't think of a case in which a band or musician would want to sell their music with Fairplay DRM without gaining access to the iTunes store. You might as well just sell the music without DRM, as you said.

 

[gnasher729]

I'm surprised how many people are interpreting this wrong.

The point of this is that Amazon can go to this new company and license Fairplay-compatable DRM. That way they can sell movies/music on their website (Unbox) and sell it with DRM that is iPod/iTV/iTunes Compatible.

This could mean, for example, Napster could be iTunes/iPod compatible.

Or Vongo (unlimited movie downloads $9.95/month) could be iPod compatible.

Personally, I'm not sure how long it will go. Either Apple will shut them down (if legally capable) or simply start licensing Fairplay themselves and cut out the middleman (which could be an inadvertant positive result of this effort)

Napster (and Vongo, never heard of them) couldn't do that. Fairplay doesn't have any time limit. If you buy a song from the iTunes Music Store, it will work forever (or as long as Apple Computer exists). If you have a Napster subscription, and Napster made it possible that you download a song and add the Fairplay DRM to it, then iTunes would play it today and forever.

 

[arn]

The DMCA would have nothing to do with this. This doesn't remove any copy prevention, it adds it. I just can't see what anyone would want to do with this technology.

Napster/Amazon would want this technology so they could sell their music/movies to anyone with an iPod.

It's not like Napster necessarily choose WMA DRM. They couldn't license Fairplay from Apple.

arn

Napster (and Vongo, never heard of them) couldn't do that. Fairplay doesn't have any time limit. If you buy a song from the iTunes Music Store, it will work forever (or as long as Apple Computer exists). If you have a Napster subscription, and Napster made it possible that you download a song and add the Fairplay DRM to it, then iTunes would play it today and forever.

you may be right about that. subscription services might not be useable at the moment.

arn

 

[Squareball]

Zune won't be able to play iTunes/FairPlay content because all this software by Dvd John does is let others ENCODE their content with FairPlay DRM, not DECODE.

Decoding is illegal but providing an alternative encoding is murky and there is history that suggests it's legal (Compaq's IBM PC clone).

So this only hurts the iTunes store not the iPod. It's also easy enough for Real to license this technology and provide a front end to their own store that then downloads the files to your computer and tells iTunes where they are so you can just open up iTunes and drag them to your iPod from a Real smart list (much the way LimeWire adds its own Smart List to your iTunes playlists side bar).

So no, Zune will never be able to play iTunes content with this software nor will any other non-apple device.

 

[Xenious]

I'm for open standards, but I'm sorry I selfishly want to see Real die a horrible painful death. Oh and I also want a T-shirt that says "DVD John cracked my butt."

 

[bluebomberman]

Oh and I also want a T-shirt that says "DVD John cracked my butt."

Ouch. Ew. Gross.

 

[suzerain]

I can't believe that people are disgruntled that we are forced to use iTunes with iPod.
iTunes is brilliant.
It's not as if we are forced to use something really crummy like WMP with the worlds favourite MP3 player.



& Microsoft.

Hmm...personally, I don't have a problem with the 'iTunes' part, I have a problem with the 'forced' part. Any company (yes, even Apple) is capable of making a big mistake, at some point...

 

[IlluminatedSage]

well. i wish apple would allow record companies to sell cd's that are copy protected, with copies of songs in AAC fairplay protected. so that people can also use them digitally.

 

[NewSc2]

psh, you all are mistaken. this is the best evidence YET that Merom MBP's will be released at Photokina, with updated chassis and everything under the sun included.


*sigh*

on another note, my friends that have other-branded mp3 players and sometimes lament that they can't purchase off of iTunes. also they'd like to switch from their mp3 player to an iPod but they don't want to deal with re-encoding all their files from wma to mp3.

 

[Peel]

You'd expect Jobs would have some sympathy for the guy, what with his phreaking days before Apple.

I had a roommate in college that had an actual Jobs/Wozniak-built blue box. It was about 10 years old at the time, but still worked fine.

 

[balamw]

Besides... the more I think about it, the more I don't see why iTunes wouldn't play the compatible Fairplay songs. Apple can't make any major changes to the existing DRM in files to break compatible Fairplay files.... since they would have then have to reencode all of those files sitting on people's hard drives.

The "key" to unlocking the FairPlay DRM is your iTMS account.

One factor that DVD Jon already uncovered once before is that the actual encoding of the DRM to your account is done locally by the iTunes client. This might help in their current effort. Previously the transmitted file was unenencrypted, while now it appears to be given some common form of encryption. Perhaps the easiest way they could make it work would be to see if they can fool iTunes into encrypting the file for them.

Since the files are already decrypted and encrypted locally in faster that real time, it doesn't seem too farfetched that Apple could decide to "upgrade" the DRM on the files locally whenever you access them, or in one swell foop as they did to detect gapless tracks.

Even if iTunes did the encrypting Apple could still break this by releasing a new iTunes client and mandating its use as they have done before. Most probably they would not want to deal with the hassle of dealing with support calls from folks who lost their protected files since they didn't have a backup but didn't buy the files from ITMS in the first place....

I personally don't see the net positive for Apple, but DVD Jon has surprised me in the past.

B

 

[jimbo999]

But what's the point of that? So a few geeks can hack their iPod to play whatever?

Opening Fairplay to other companies opens the iPod to other services. The biggest risk to Apple is the opening of Fairplay to other MP3 manufacturers.

Besides... the more I think about it, the more I don't see why iTunes wouldn't play the compatible Fairplay songs. Apple can't make any major changes to the existing DRM in files to break compatible Fairplay files.... since they would have then have to reencode all of those files sitting on people's hard drives.

arn

Perhaps DVD Jon's business model in this instance primarily revolves around getting Apple to pay him off...

 

[mac-er]

Jobs apparently warned that while Apple was not a litigious company

Well, that has to be the funniest thing I ever heard.

 

[balamw]

Perhaps DVD Jon's business model in this instance primarily revolves around getting Apple to pay him off...

LOL. I am a bit surprised that they haven't made him a job offer already w/ decent options.

B

 

[BenRoethig]

I'm surprised how many people are interpreting this wrong.

The point of this is that Amazon can go to this new company and license Fairplay-compatable DRM. That way they can sell movies/music on their website (Unbox) and sell it with DRM that is iPod/iTV/iTunes Compatible.

This could mean, for example, Napster could be iTunes/iPod compatible.

Or Vongo (unlimited movie downloads $9.95/month) could be iPod compatible.

Personally, I'm not sure how long it will go. Either Apple will shut them down (if legally capable) or simply start licensing Fairplay themselves and cut out the middleman (which could be an inadvertant positive result of this effort)

OR

[edit: as pointed out below, this is probably not possible]
Microsoft licenses it so Zune can play iTunes Music/Movie store content. That could be a huge boost for Zune.

arn

Exactly my point. If windows iPod users could transfer their iPod media to Zune and Windows media player, it would be a huge plus for them. Remember, most iPod owners don't belong to the church of Mac. We already know they are more than willing to live outside accepted ethics if it suits them.

 

[iMikeT]

He's just another guy trying to make a quick buck...

 

[zwida]

Well, that has to be the funniest thing I ever heard.

Heh. I literally laughed out loud when I saw that line.