Another nail in Flash's coffin

[djrod]

You guys completely miss why Steve, doesn't want Flash, it's not about video, it's not about web sites, it's about allowing Flash programs to run that circumvent the app store, it would in essence create an OS container within iOS to run other programs, and Steve can't control that, or gain any revenue. In the end it's about profit and control.

The iPhone lacked Flash before the App Store existed and Apple wanted developer to create free HTML Apps, they don't want Flash because is crap, also Apple doesn't cripple Safari HTML5, that can be used to create free games as well: http://mario.fromlifetodeath.com/


As a web designer I've been advising not to use Flash since 2005, and I was a Pc user back then, this all apple users don't want Flash because Steve Jobs say so is pure BS**t

 

[JeepGuy]

Thats because he's spiderman.

It must be his spidey senses.

 

[spiderman0616]

The iPhone lacked Flash before the App Store existed and Apple wanted developer to create free HTML Apps, they don't want Flash because is crap, also Apple doesn't cripple Safari HTML5, that can be used to create free games as well: http://mario.fromlifetodeath.com/


As a web designer I've been advising not to use Flash since 2005, and I was a Pc user back then, this all apple users don't want Flash because Steve Jobs say so is pure BS**t

It may have lacked Flash before the App Store existed to the end user, but Apple knew the App Store was coming.

 

[BaldiMac]

Spiderman0616 gets it

Sure, if you ignore the fact that there are thousands of free games on the App Store and the fact that apps built using web standards will run on iOS devices and the fact that App Store profits are inconsequential to Apple's bottom line and the fact that the playability of Flash games is hit or miss on touch screen devices and...

 

[palpatine]

interesting theories about steve's reasons for throwing down with flash. personally, i give steve a lot of credit for being an innovator and savvy ceo, but i don't know about this money thing.

i imagine a deathgrip on profit streams may have been a factor, but (in my opinion) the guy has whims and apple enables him to indulge in them. the no arrows key thing is one example, firewire, thunderbolt (50 bucks for a cable vs. 0 for a usb one), floppies, form over function simplicity (my shuffle is cool, but needs memorization of secret button sequences), etc.

as for flash, i just don't care. i want to get my work done, and i don't appreciate being pressed into service by steve for whatever reason, especially if it is an attempt to bully the entire world into recoding the entire internet. stop trying to micromanage our experiences steve! let us "ruin" it with flash if we want to

 

[BaldiMac]

let us "ruin" it with flash if we want to

Unfortunately, your ability to "ruin" your own internet experience doesn't just affect you.

 

[spiderman0616]

Sure, if you ignore the fact that there are thousands of free games on the App Store and the fact that apps built using web standards will run on iOS devices and the fact that App Store profits are inconsequential to Apple's bottom line and the fact that the playability of Flash games is hit or miss on touch screen devices and...

App Store profits are not inconsequential to Apple's bottom line. Apple makes money off of the App Store, but more importantly ANY app that you get whether it's free or pay will suck you more and more into Apple's ecosystem. Steve Jobs is all about getting you on Apple stuff and keeping you on Apple stuff. Make no mistake--EVERY decision Apple makes is very purposeful and calculated. They're not trying to kill web standards for fun.

And I'm not saying that's bad. Steve Jobs' "vision" of what the marriage of hardware and software should be like has fit my lifestyle quite well after having hated on Apple for so long--even after they released the limited iCloud functionality (automatic syncing of music, apps, and books across iOS devices) I am finding things to be a lot easier. And I do like the fact that I don't have to charge my iPad every day. But I think the rare occasion that I still hit a website that's Flash only would not affect my battery too much. It doesn't happen that often, but when it does, I sure miss having Flash. I can usually overlook it if the site has a dedicated iOS app, but sometimes that's not the case.

 

[rdstoll]

Pandora has rebuilt it's front-end in super fast HTML5, dropping support for antiquated Flash.

http://www.pandora.com/newpandora

Another nail in Flash's coffin. The more that this happens, the better.

I still stand by my statement: any competing mobile OS that brags about supporting Flash is in fact advertising a negative feature. Flash is a step backwards and supporting Flash is merely a diversion so people can overlook your poorly designed OS. Concentrate on the user experience and quit trying to tack on "features" that are really just distractors.

Android is already vastly superior with or without Flash.

 

[mKTank]

Only on MacRumors do you find people who actually prefer not to have a choice. It's pathetic.

 

[BaldiMac]

App Store profits are not inconsequential to Apple's bottom line.

Of course, they are. Apple operates the iTunes Store "a bit over break even." With quarterly profits over $6 billion and counting, that is inconsequential.

Apple makes money off of the App Store, but more importantly ANY app that you get whether it's free or pay will suck you more and more into Apple's ecosystem. Steve Jobs is all about getting you on Apple stuff and keeping you on Apple stuff. Make no mistake--EVERY decision Apple makes is very purposeful and calculated.

Sure. Apple wants people to use the App Store. But I don't think it is one of the main reasons for the lack of Flash.

They're not trying to kill web standards for fun.

They are not trying to kill web standards at all. Which goes against your initial point.

 

[radiogoober]

Flash isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Its been around since the 90's and the websites who support flash are legion.

What do you think will happen? That thousands of websites will immediately do a complete re-write of their html just for ipad users?

No, they will just do a user-agent forward to their mobile site.

EXACTLY. It's been around since the '90s. So you guys can take your Sony Walkman and your Flash websites and go play around on Windows 95 all day long.

 

[Slip Jigs]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8H7 Safari/6533.18.5)

Let's just be honest. There's no reason Apple couldn't give the users the ability to turn Flash on/off. But, by not including any Flash capabilities whatsoever, they're singlehandedly accelerating Flash's demise. Most web developers I speak to these days will advise their clients not to use any Flash components in their websites.

I agree. I built a site with a flash banner that simply cycles through 4 images. Now, I have to change it to Ajax so iPad people can see it. The Ajax animations are inferior and clunky compared to flash, but that's the way the web is going.

 

[MonkeySee....]

Only on MacRumors do you find people who actually prefer not to have a choice. It's pathetic.

Why is it so bad to take away choice?

 

[MassacrMan]

You kind of have to get flash into the coffin before you nail it in....

 

[colinmack]

I get a kick out of responses to these kinds of thread. Most people can't seem to understand the simple fact that when the iPhone came out, Adobe did not have a mobile Flash player. Apple is on record for having approached them but it didn't go anywhere (Adobe likely didn't think it was a priority, as they had already publicly downplayed the importance of developing for Mac), but the fact remains that Apple had no choice - it wasn't about restricting options for people, there was no viable option.

Here we are four years later, and the general consensus from reviewers is that the dribbling of mobile Flash players today are still a questionable experience at best. Four years, and Adobe still can't quite make it work.

So before you start spouting conspiracy theories about Apple's motives, step back and look at the facts - there was no mobile player when the iPhone came out so Apple had no choice, and four years later Adobe still can't deliver a successful mobile Flash experience, so Apple was probably right to bet on more future-proofed options like HTML5.

Oh - and Elvis is really dead, and the moon landing did happen.

 

[bufffilm]

Why is it so bad to take away choice?

is this a serious question?!

you have the freedom to make choices every day...now, imagine being told you're going to have less [choices].

now maybe this might sit well with you, but it would be a problem for some people.

 

[Carouser]

is this a serious question?!

you have the freedom to make choices every day...now, imagine being told you're going to have less [choices].

The Paradox of Choice
And see 'See Also' links at the bottom.

Whether or not people want Flash or whether it is legitimate, 'freedom to make choices' can also be 'time wasted making irrelevant choices'.

EDIT: Unless you mine your own resources and build your own OS by hand, your choices are already constrained. If Flash is warranted or not, it's not because of this stupid idea about 'give me the choice to make you make your product the way I want it to be'.

 

[palpatine]

Unfortunately, your ability to "ruin" your own internet experience doesn't just affect you.

yes. apple's app empire would crumble, he-who-shall-not-be-named would rise up to suck the life out of everyone's battery, and flash would destroy the world as we know it...if apple gave us a toggle option

come on. seriously? you think the ability to turn on flash when necessary would have an adverse effect on other consumers?

as for flash and barry schwartz's thesis (someone mentioned this elsewhere in the thread), assuming we agree with him (i don't), i don't think it has a whole lot to do with our problem. if you want to talk about anxiety, try accessing a site on your computer, going to your ipad, and finding out that you can't access it anymore.

if you want to talk more broadly about choice, i don't think schwartz was recommending that we subsume our freedom of choice to the profit-seeking imperatives of companies. in fact, to the best of my knowledge he has not advocated some kind of third party interference in the modern market, but he seems to favor an approach that gives people tools to deal with the array of choices they now face.

 

[chown33]

What's in it for Apple? Not just good battery life in their devices. They also get more of your money. You can't go on websites and play free flash games anymore--you have to go to the app store and buy them.

Because there are no free games at all on the App Store. Nope, not a single one.

 

[palpatine]

double post. deleted.

 

[vvswarup]

Let's just be honest. There's no reason Apple couldn't give the users the ability to turn Flash on/off. But, by not including any Flash capabilities whatsoever, they're singlehandedly accelerating Flash's demise. Most web developers I speak to these days will advise their clients not to use any Flash components in their websites.

I agree completely with your post. People on this forum don't get it. They seem to agree that Flash is not the future of web content, but Flash is still widely used NOW, so Apple should give users the option to turn Flash on/off. Putting that option in there is as good as supporting Flash. It's like giving a dying man a glass of water.

I agree that a lot more progress must be made on adoption of Flash. But so far, a lot of progress has been made. Major websites are redesigning their content to be viewable on iOS devices because they're not about to throw away the readership of iOS users. Now let's ask ourselves this. Suppose Apple had allowed Flash from the start. Would even that much progress have been accomplished? What incentive would content providers have to redesign their websites in HTML5?

 

[Carouser]

come on. seriously? you think the ability to turn on flash when necessary would have an adverse effect on other consumers?

If you really want to know, why don't you look at his other posts and the endless Flash discussions where people manage to say sensible things yet always get met with 'bla bla bla Steve Jobs it's just for $$$' or whatever gets spouted endlessly.

 

[vvswarup]

great advice. i encourage everyone to give it a try. i think someone on these forums recommended it to me a while ago. unfortunately, it didn't work for all the sites. it seems to be hit or miss.



yes. i just love this argument. the intellectual and emotional immaturity of the many outweighs the maturity of the few, or the one. a classic justification used to support a whole host of activities that take choice out of the hands of the consumers.

it isn't an argument i have heard apple make. i've only heard consumers make it to explain why it is better that they not be given any power. thankfully, other developers like google do not seem to share the low esteem you have for your fellow consumers.

Apple made it very clear that Flash would not be on iOS devices. Also, consumers are spending over $500 on iPads. For most people, that's not just chump change. It's a substantial amount of money it's consumers' responsibility to do their due diligence before buying the iPad. If only a few thousand people had bought the iPad knowing it doesn't have Flash, then it could be said that that is too small of a sample size. One can argue that those few thousand people are a special case and one can't extrapolate what the general consensus is. But 25 million buyers is a substantial number by any standards. If 25 million people still bought the iPad knowing that it doesn't have Flash, what do you say to that?

 

[anjinha]

yes. apple's app empire would crumble, he-who-shall-not-be-named would rise up to suck the life out of everyone's battery, and flash would destroy the world as we know it...if apple gave us a toggle option

come on. seriously? you think the ability to turn on flash when necessary would have an adverse effect on other consumers?

Yes, it would.

The fact that Flash isn't allowed at all on iOS means a lot of websites are creating HTML5 alternatives because they don't want to miss out on the huge market that is iOS. If there was a toggle for Flash a lot of websites wouldn't bother with that so Flash would just continue to be the standard and a lot of HTML5 content wouldn't exist. So consumers that absolutely don't want to use Flash (I don't have it installed even on my Mac) would have a lot less content available for them.

I agree completely with your post. People on this forum don't get it. They seem to agree that Flash is not the future of web content, but Flash is still widely used NOW, so Apple should give users the option to turn Flash on/off. Putting that option in there is as good as supporting Flash. It's like giving a dying man a glass of water.

I agree that a lot more progress must be made on adoption of Flash. But so far, a lot of progress has been made. Major websites are redesigning their content to be viewable on iOS devices because they're not about to throw away the readership of iOS users. Now let's ask ourselves this. Suppose Apple had allowed Flash from the start. Would even that much progress have been accomplished? What incentive would content providers have to redesign their websites in HTML5?

Exactly.

 

[Fernandez21]

Double post.