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Any news on TRIM ssd implementation for OS X.
- Thread starter applecultvictim
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From what I have read on the OCZ site, the 1.5 firmware, for the Vertex, is not compatible with the Vertex Turbo.
Is there a version newer for, the Vertex Turbo, than 1.0?
Don't know what to tell you man. I would consider the OCZ site to be the definitive source for OCZ product firmware updates. If you aren't satisfied with that, then I recommend you contact their support group -- they were very good when I spoke with them. Good luck.
Hi Robb,
I think I confused the issue here. I don't have a Turbo. In fact, I am waiting on the same model you have (Vertex). Delivery is today!
calderone is the person that prompted my question regarding the Turbo version of the Vertex. I am curious to know if there is a newer version of the firmware, for the Turbo. Additionally, I don't want to see him brick his drive with the wrong firmware.
Ahh... very nice -- always exciting to get a shiny new piece of hardware in the mail. Enjoy.
On the Turbo, to be honest, I didn't see it overtly listed on the support site. What I did see were warnings NOT to use some firmware updates on a Turbo.
On the Turbo, to be honest, I didn't see it overtly listed on the support site. What I did see were warnings NOT to use some firmware updates on a Turbo.
I have two of the Gen 1 Intel X25-M's. One in a mac mini and the other in my MBP. I've had them for a long while now and on my mac mini I've filled the drive to the brim. I haven't noticed any real system degradation on Mac OS X.
But YMMV... Apple probably will not support TRIM, they most likely think of it as a band-aid instead of a viable resolution.
But YMMV... Apple probably will not support TRIM, they most likely think of it as a band-aid instead of a viable resolution.
To Sum Things Up:
For people who want to continue or restart this thread, let me sum things up
1. It is VITAL for SSD's to have some sort of feature to prevent fragmentation and write degradation as well as wearing out of the flash chips.
2. One way this is implemented is through TRIM. You can read more at wikipedia. Just search for TRIM.
3. TRIM is an established standard, but requires the OS to do the work.
4. A Better way of implementing some way to prevent write degradation is a Garbage collect feature. Both OCZ vertex and Corsair drives (rebranded samsung SSD's) support this.
5. The Samsung SSD's only do the garbage collect for NTFS file systems.
6. The OCZ drives do this for ALL filesystems.
7. as a Mac user, i would get the OCZ Mac edition drives because they have been TESTED by apple and approved. A lot of people say "its the same drive with a different sticker" and i talked to OCZ about this. They showed me the specs on their drives for the Mac and Normal versions of their drives.
It turns out they are NOT the same and should NOT be mistaken for the same. The OCZ Mac edition drives are 10MB/s SLOWER in both read and write due to The Journaled Format (HFS+) of Snow Leopard. What i mean by this (and OCZ tech support confirmed this) is that drive speeds have to be tuned with the OS and with extremely fast SSD's this causes some hanging. The speeds used in the Mac edition provide the best performance for apple machines.
You can read more about it here: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16820227434#review-1
And this is the post from the link i was referring to:
Manufacturer Response:This updated response should clear up any concerns about these drives.
Hello, prices on both the Vertex and Mac Versions should be close to parity, and OCZs pricing to our direct customers reflects this. We are always working on delivering better value to customers and reducing the overall cost of the solution to customers even though extra costs went into the products development. Special testing and validation was required for the release of the Mac version, and the solution was validated in Apples own labs. Extra resources have also been put into place for robust internal validation, compatibility testing on Mac platforms, and additional service and support to ensure that the Mac Edition is fully compatible with Mac hardware.
Thank You
For people who want to continue or restart this thread, let me sum things up
1. It is VITAL for SSD's to have some sort of feature to prevent fragmentation and write degradation as well as wearing out of the flash chips.
2. One way this is implemented is through TRIM. You can read more at wikipedia. Just search for TRIM.
3. TRIM is an established standard, but requires the OS to do the work.
4. A Better way of implementing some way to prevent write degradation is a Garbage collect feature. Both OCZ vertex and Corsair drives (rebranded samsung SSD's) support this.
5. The Samsung SSD's only do the garbage collect for NTFS file systems.
6. The OCZ drives do this for ALL filesystems.
7. as a Mac user, i would get the OCZ Mac edition drives because they have been TESTED by apple and approved. A lot of people say "its the same drive with a different sticker" and i talked to OCZ about this. They showed me the specs on their drives for the Mac and Normal versions of their drives.
It turns out they are NOT the same and should NOT be mistaken for the same. The OCZ Mac edition drives are 10MB/s SLOWER in both read and write due to The Journaled Format (HFS+) of Snow Leopard. What i mean by this (and OCZ tech support confirmed this) is that drive speeds have to be tuned with the OS and with extremely fast SSD's this causes some hanging. The speeds used in the Mac edition provide the best performance for apple machines.
You can read more about it here: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16820227434#review-1
And this is the post from the link i was referring to:
Manufacturer Response:This updated response should clear up any concerns about these drives.
Hello, prices on both the Vertex and Mac Versions should be close to parity, and OCZs pricing to our direct customers reflects this. We are always working on delivering better value to customers and reducing the overall cost of the solution to customers even though extra costs went into the products development. Special testing and validation was required for the release of the Mac version, and the solution was validated in Apples own labs. Extra resources have also been put into place for robust internal validation, compatibility testing on Mac platforms, and additional service and support to ensure that the Mac Edition is fully compatible with Mac hardware.
Thank You
Untrue.....
It is in the process of becoming a standard and is still subject to change. Apple will not likely implement TRIM until it is a standard.
S-
If its any constellation, Linux also doesn't have official TRIM support, so we're not that bad off..... Except we payed a pound and a crown for our hardware versus the cheap PC hardware Linux runs on.................. And we except our OS to be cutting edge....... Hmmmm....
Well maybe it has to do with TRIM not being an official standard yet......
Well maybe it has to do with TRIM not being an official standard yet......
Trim or no Trim... my machine is damn fast.
And if you think you aren't getting the most out of your SSD because of fragementation, then all you have to do is carbon copy or super duper clone it to a spare drive, then cabon copy/super duper it back. Done, "un-fragged" and you have another year of peak performance.
And if you think you aren't getting the most out of your SSD because of fragementation, then all you have to do is carbon copy or super duper clone it to a spare drive, then cabon copy/super duper it back. Done, "un-fragged" and you have another year of peak performance.
Yeah, I am not always the biggest believer in wikipedia accuracy, but this article does seem to have it's references in order. Trim may or may not be designated as a "standard" yet, however, it's adoption is quite extensive...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIM
Well I lied! According to the said Wiki article above, Linux has officially acquired TRIM support as of kernel v.2.6.33!!
http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kern...ff;h=18f0f97850059303ed73b1f02084f55ca330a80c
So it is just us out in the cold now. I'm starting to feel Apple is just stubbornly not adding TRIM support now.... if a few open source geeks can do it, i think Apple has the man power to do it, even if its not "official"....
And talking about not "official", didn't Apple start delivering 802.11N WiFi products before the official WiFi-N standard was ratified ??? Exactly.
Or Mini-Displayport.
Which causes your SSD to no longer be aligned, if 4K alignment is even supported by OS X in the first place yet, so much good that would do.
OK, I'm confused.....
Everyone keeps saying to combat fragmentation of our expensive SSD's, do a Carbon Copy/Super Duper clone of your SSD, then erase/reformat it, then restore it from the backup copy once or twice per year to get back that Virgin SSD performance.
This is all good and fine, and easy to do for me, as I already keep my original Apple/Hitachi 160 GB HD in an external USB enclosure and clone it to my internal Intel 160 GB G2 SSD once per week as my backup solution. Many of you are implying that you simply erase/reformat the SSD, then restore it from the backup. This too is actually easy (but time consuming), since I can easily boot my MacBook Pro from the USB External HD and reformat the internal SSD and then do the Carbon Copy Clone restore.
HOWEVER, AFAIK, when use Disk Utility to erase/reformat a disk, you just reformat the file system (initialize a new HFS+ file system, deleting the old file catalog, etc). The underlying physical hardware is still blissfully unaware of any such reformat action, isn't it?!? Disk Utility is unaware that in-fact an SSD is being reformatted and should therefore take additional steps to instruct the SSD to physically clean itself (mark all clusters/blocks as free)!!
To prove this, consider ProSoft Eng Data Rescue software... This is a tool used to "un-erase" HD's and recover files. When you 'accidentally' delete that important file, Data Rescue manually scans the disk, sector by sector, block by block, and tries to 'reconstitute' the contents of the file. I have successfully used this product before to recover files from a corrupted HFS+ file systems and on an accidentally deleted HFS+ volume. However, it goes on further to say:
MEANING: even doing an erase/reformat of our SSD's are in fact NOT clearing the data itself (mark all clusters/blocks as free)!!! After all, we can simply run a tool like Data Rescue on our SSD's, and wouldn't it dig and mine our SSD's sector by sector, block by block and recover tons of stuff ?? Ideally it SHOULDN'T, because we want our SSD's to be truly 'reset' in a virgin blank/empty state!! I have done it myself, and can attest that reformatting a HFS+ file system does NOT erase the data on the disk --- so why would it suddenly do it for an SSD ??? Further more, erasing our SSD's with 111111's is no solution either, because that actually fills it up to the brim with data (11111111111111's), not mark the sectors/blocks as free. The only thing overwriting 1111111111111's to our SSD accomplishes is making it impossible to recover data from using traditional tools.
Please correct me if i'm wrong, but
Apple, you really need to get SSD TRIM support in here..........
Everyone keeps saying to combat fragmentation of our expensive SSD's, do a Carbon Copy/Super Duper clone of your SSD, then erase/reformat it, then restore it from the backup copy once or twice per year to get back that Virgin SSD performance.
This is all good and fine, and easy to do for me, as I already keep my original Apple/Hitachi 160 GB HD in an external USB enclosure and clone it to my internal Intel 160 GB G2 SSD once per week as my backup solution. Many of you are implying that you simply erase/reformat the SSD, then restore it from the backup. This too is actually easy (but time consuming), since I can easily boot my MacBook Pro from the USB External HD and reformat the internal SSD and then do the Carbon Copy Clone restore.
HOWEVER, AFAIK, when use Disk Utility to erase/reformat a disk, you just reformat the file system (initialize a new HFS+ file system, deleting the old file catalog, etc). The underlying physical hardware is still blissfully unaware of any such reformat action, isn't it?!? Disk Utility is unaware that in-fact an SSD is being reformatted and should therefore take additional steps to instruct the SSD to physically clean itself (mark all clusters/blocks as free)!!
To prove this, consider ProSoft Eng Data Rescue software... This is a tool used to "un-erase" HD's and recover files. When you 'accidentally' delete that important file, Data Rescue manually scans the disk, sector by sector, block by block, and tries to 'reconstitute' the contents of the file. I have successfully used this product before to recover files from a corrupted HFS+ file systems and on an accidentally deleted HFS+ volume. However, it goes on further to say:
MEANING: even doing an erase/reformat of our SSD's are in fact NOT clearing the data itself (mark all clusters/blocks as free)!!! After all, we can simply run a tool like Data Rescue on our SSD's, and wouldn't it dig and mine our SSD's sector by sector, block by block and recover tons of stuff ?? Ideally it SHOULDN'T, because we want our SSD's to be truly 'reset' in a virgin blank/empty state!! I have done it myself, and can attest that reformatting a HFS+ file system does NOT erase the data on the disk --- so why would it suddenly do it for an SSD ??? Further more, erasing our SSD's with 111111's is no solution either, because that actually fills it up to the brim with data (11111111111111's), not mark the sectors/blocks as free. The only thing overwriting 1111111111111's to our SSD accomplishes is making it impossible to recover data from using traditional tools.
Please correct me if i'm wrong, but
Apple, you really need to get SSD TRIM support in here..........
I agree with your assessment, and I would use the SSD manufacturer's utilities to wipe an SSD before using disk uitility. For example, OCZ has a utility called Sanitary Erase.
Yes. Apple needs to add TRIM support to the OS.
So if/when the drive does slow down then you'd need to take an OS image, take the drive to a Windows/Linux machine to format and trim it and bring it back to the mac and write the image back to it? And a vast majority of the drive out today support a simple command on the controller to do this without any hassle?
Look, band-aid or not and standard or not. Just do it or come up with something better, but quit your "Apple isn't supporting it" line and get something done already.
The whole "trim" idea sounds like a simple solution you can throw in a point release until new file systems can be developed to work directly with the SSD's.
Look, band-aid or not and standard or not. Just do it or come up with something better, but quit your "Apple isn't supporting it" line and get something done already.
The whole "trim" idea sounds like a simple solution you can throw in a point release until new file systems can be developed to work directly with the SSD's.
Many SSD drives contain some sort of proprietary "garbage collection" to keep the drive running its best.
Who are you referring to when you stated "Just do it or come up with something better..."? Apple?
As was previously stated there was some debate on whether or not the GC was in itself an alternative to the TRIM features or just a secondary that worked in conjunction. And there are even drives with GC that are still suffering, supposedly. So then it wouldn't be very useful in that case, would it?
The cookie monster, the vague random "They", The Man, Big Brother. Whoever... Yes, you could say Apple or the person known as Sidewinder who is either a really good Devil's Advocate or wants people to think he/she/it works for Apple. Hell, pick a homeless guy on the street and say I'm referring to him. Whatever floats your boat.
Not to sound like I'm pro "Everyone else is jumping of the golden gate bridge, you might as well also". But, something is better than nothing. Apple, 3rd party developer, random homeless dude from before, should really do something. Unless TRIM is useless...
Again, I don't have a problem yet so its not my problem yet. I'd just like to have a solution in place if/when it does become my problem...
Savvy?
I think its a bit ridiculous and and embarrassing to dismantle my laptop and physically pull out my SSD to put it in a PC and issue the proper formatting commands to reset it.
Yes, I completely agree GT500Shlby. Apple, or some brave Mac developers need to do something about this. It needs to interface deep within the OS's internals to the IOATA,etc framework so when a file is deleted from the file system level, the appropriate TRIM command is also issued to truly get rid of the file. I'm afraid it may not be the simplest task for a 3rd party developer to accomplish, given how intimate it has to get into the ATA drivers. It doesn't sound incredibly complex to add either, according to the Linux kernel diff, which i browsed through -- something that could be included in a 10.6.X update....
I'm also blaming the SSD manufacturers' too in this case (INTEL). We payed them premium $$$ for an advanced product, the onus should be on them to support it on multiple platforms. There's no excuse that Intel should have its SSD Toolbox running only on Windows when you buy a US$500 item from them. After all, who is taking the onus on implementing TRIM on pre-Win 7?? Intel!!! Even back to Win XP users get TRIM support thanks to custom Intel drivers available for that OS. Where are our drivers too Intel??
Even if an SSD has native Garbage Collection, it is still un-aware what files the HFS+ file system has deleted, true or false ?? Does it know when a file is deleted from an HFS+ file system so its internal GC would do something about it?
Yes, I completely agree GT500Shlby. Apple, or some brave Mac developers need to do something about this. It needs to interface deep within the OS's internals to the IOATA,etc framework so when a file is deleted from the file system level, the appropriate TRIM command is also issued to truly get rid of the file. I'm afraid it may not be the simplest task for a 3rd party developer to accomplish, given how intimate it has to get into the ATA drivers. It doesn't sound incredibly complex to add either, according to the Linux kernel diff, which i browsed through -- something that could be included in a 10.6.X update....
I'm also blaming the SSD manufacturers' too in this case (INTEL). We payed them premium $$$ for an advanced product, the onus should be on them to support it on multiple platforms. There's no excuse that Intel should have its SSD Toolbox running only on Windows when you buy a US$500 item from them. After all, who is taking the onus on implementing TRIM on pre-Win 7?? Intel!!! Even back to Win XP users get TRIM support thanks to custom Intel drivers available for that OS. Where are our drivers too Intel??
Even if an SSD has native Garbage Collection, it is still un-aware what files the HFS+ file system has deleted, true or false ?? Does it know when a file is deleted from an HFS+ file system so its internal GC would do something about it?
I thought of this already, good idea. But I doubt it would work. At least when it comes to the Intel SSD Toolbox installed on an XP machine, it refused to recognize the USB-mounted SSD. It only scans the internal SATA bus for valid devices. Same thing with updating the firmware, it needs to be inside the machine, not external. Not too sure about the implications of Firewire (Target Disk Mode) or eSATA though, but I suspect it may not work due the the SSD not being on the SATA bus --- someone would have to test that out for us. (My PC doesn't have eSATA or Firewire)
However, someone from another thread mentioned about a Linux utility called hdparm that can truly 'reset' an SSD back to its factory-fast performance. After cloning the SSD, apparently you can boot from a Linux Live CD to perform the operation on the internal SSD inside your Mac:
https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/ATA_Secure_Erase
Note, the ATA Secure Erase command is not the same as what Disk Utility "Secure Erase" function is. Anyone ever try using a Linux Live CD to issue the ATA Secure Erase necessary to 'blank' an SSD ?
Guys what about if you are running on bootcamp. I am looking into this and see all these comments about trim. If I partition a drive. Say 90 Mac/ 60 Windows.
will trim be supported on the Windows 7 side, and then I use Disk tester on the other?
What about the corsaird 256. I know the Intels are best but it seems like that is a a lot more space. over 100 gigs more.
will trim be supported on the Windows 7 side, and then I use Disk tester on the other?
What about the corsaird 256. I know the Intels are best but it seems like that is a a lot more space. over 100 gigs more.
It should. Depends on the driver the OS is using to communicate with the hard disc. Microsoft's built in standard driver in Windows 7 does utilize TRIM, but if Apple is replacing it with their own driver in the bootcamp drivers (perhaps to read the OSX partition), then you may not be using TRIM.
Check by going to device manager, checking the hard disc properties and see who the driver manufacturer is. Microsoft is OK, but if its Apple, you may want to uninstall it and use Microsoft's own driver (may lose some functionality with OSX partition). Intel's driver also does not use TRIM yet, iirc, so if you installed Intel Matrix stuff, you may want to uninstall it.
As to what hard drive, it's a bit up to you. Intel's have a premium, but that's for a reason. Check to make sure that the Corsair has adequate I/O performance, and random 4k write speeds. If it does and support TRIM, you should not have any issues with the drive. Intel's drives still have some of the best I/O performance, and carry a brand premium. In return, the consumers are buy an emerging technology with a little bit more confidence. At the very least, if their drives fail, they know Intel will still be around.
My personal suggestion: stick with intel for now. The tech is too new, and reliability is unknown. IMHO, you've got a better shot at a good drive with intel. If you feel like you are getting too little storage, a normal rotational 2nd hard drive can store a lot of data for cheap.
So I've been reading all I can on a ssd for my uMBP. Ive narrowed it down to the intel x-25 or the ocz vertex 120gb. I know that os x does not support trim, so I want to make sure that the ssd i buy has some sort of garbage collection. I know the ocz firmware 1.5 has GC, but what I want to know is if the intel x-25 models have some sort of GC in their firmware. Please any info would be greatly appreciated.