Any SCSI experts? Need help getting a SCSI scanner to connect to Powermac G4

[bluesmudge]

Apologies if you are seeing this post in multiple forums. I'm cross posting in a few places since I'm looking for some very niche expertise:

Any SCSI experts around that can try and help me out?

What I'm trying to do is connect a Minolta Dimage Scan Elite F2900 film scanner to a G4 Powermac and use it in OS 9.2.2. So far I have what I think is a working scanner, and a working SCSI PCI card but can't get the scanner to show up.

The scanner has a Centronics, aka SCS-1, aka CN-50 port and a DB25 Port. It has dip switches for selecting the SCSI ID and turning on/off the internal terminator.

I purchased a ATTO UL3D SCSI PCI card that had previously been used in a Powermac, so it should have the correct firmware. In OS9's system profile I can see it as a SCSI card with v. 1.66 firmware, which is the latest firmware I can find. I selected this card because it is one that is supposed to work in both OS9 and OSX. It's product manual says that it is compatible with SCSI-3, SCSI-2 and SCSI-1 devices and backward compatible with Ultra2, Ultra/WIDE, Fast/WIDE and Narrow SCSI devices

The ATTO UL3D uses a much more recent SCSI connector than the scanner. It's a VHDCI, aka SCSI-5. So I purchased a VHDCI to CN-50 cable from IEC.net, the only company that seemed to actually have such a cable in-stock (or maybe made on demand).

With everything connected up, I boot up the scanner before turning on the Mac. OS9 is slower to boot now which makes me think the SCSI card is looking for devices. However I see no new SCSI devices in the system profiler.

I downloaded ATTO Express Tools 2.82 from the Macintosh Garden. It shows my SCSI card but doesn't show anything for any of the SCSI IDs. It's like the scanner isn't there. The photoshop plug-in and the scanner software that came with the scanner also act like its not connected. I've tried a couple different SCSI IDs on the scanner.

The scanner was new-old-stock and looks brand new. It turns on and makes the lights and whirring sounds I would expect from it.

I'm not sure what else to try. Maybe:
-Trying the SCSI card in other PCI slots?
-Getting a completely different SCSI card even though the one I have should be backwards compatible? The manual for the Scanner recommends the Adaptec PowerDomain 2940UW, PowerDomain 2940U2W, PowerDomain 2930U, or SCSI Card 2906.
-Trying a different cable, like going from CN50 to SCS-2 and then to VHDCI. Or finding a chain of cables to connect to the DB25 port instead of the CN50 port.

Is there any secret SCSI sauce that I'm missing here?

My boot disc is running off a PCI card based SATA controller with an SSD, which presents itself as SCSI in OS9. I don't know if this could somehow be getting in the way of a "real" SCSI card?

I'm 100% brand new to SCSI. I started with macs right as OS9 was transitioning to OSX so I have always been spoiled by how USB and FireWire "Just Works."

 

[kencu]

SCSI is usually very sensitive to how the terminators are placed on the SCSI chain.

You might look to see you have those right.

 

[PaulD-UK]

@bluesmudge
I was going to suggest that lack of termination of the high ID lines was a possible problem, but I see you've already received this answer elsewhere:
"My only guess is that since you used active termination on the scanner the SCSI card figured its a 16 bit device and didn't terminate the 8 other lanes causing problems with noise (which would make scanning for SCSI ID's take a lot longer). A passive terminator should fix that problem as long as the cables you have are not damaged or anything."

There is also an old MR thread (dealing with OS X):

Which SCSI card for my MP 3,1 to run an old film scanner

Hello I am going to run an old film scanner (Minolta Dimage Scan Multi II) on my Mac Pro 3,1 and would need an SCSI card. I would appreciate suggestions on which card to buy as I know virtually nothing about SCSI. Thank you very much in advance Philip

forums.macrumors.com

 

[bluesmudge]

Thanks. I'm going to try buying a terminator to add to the DB25 port. Even though the scanner's manual specifically says that external termination isn't required.

 

[kencu]

Are there terminators installed on the PCI SCSI card? Generally, you need terminators on both ends of the chain.

There can be voodoo involved. Some of my devices required having the terminator between the cable and the device. Other times, things worked correctly only when the SCSI cable went into the device and the terminator was on the daisy-chain connector.

But always, the SCSI end at the computer needed terminator resistors installed.

 

[bluesmudge]

I don’t have any terminators on the PCI SCSI card. The card’s manual states that it features “Auto Termination”. The manual states, “
“The ATTO ExpressPCI SCSI adapter uses plug and play technology to eliminate configuration manipulation, including setting termination for single-ended adapters.”


There are 2 SCSI busses on the card, each one has an internal and external port. Maybe I should place a terminator on the internal port? I haven’t been able to find an in-line terminator for the external VHDCI SCSI-5 connector to place a terminator between the cable and the device.

 

[kencu]

I admit, auto-termination sounds like it should be good.

 

[bluesmudge]

I tried the passive DB25 terminator. Still no luck getting the scanner to show up. I tried with the internal scanner termination on and with it off. I tried with SCSI ID's 4 and 5.

One weird thing is that none of the settings "stick" in the OS9 ATTO Express Tools software. Every time I rescan the SCSI busses or restart the computer, any changes I made to the configuration revert back to default. So I'm not 100% sure the SCSI card is working as intended. For example, in the software it gives the option to turn automatic termination to off, lower 8-bits, full, or automatic. The default is automatic. If I change it to full and then rescan the SCSI busses to see if it helps, the setting resets back to automatic. Based on this, I was told to find a copy of ATTO Configuration Tool which is the OSX version of Express Tools.

I was able to find a download for ConfigTool version 3.38, which was designed for OSX 10.4 and 10.5. It was able to see my ATTO SCSI card and both busses and it DOES let me change the cards settings. For example, I was able to set the Termination setting from Auto to Full and then when I booted into OS9 the ATTO Express Tool app there showed the settings had been preserved.

The scanner is still not showing up though. I set termination to full on the ATTO card set the scanner's termination dip switch on.

There are a bunch more settings in ConfigTool I could play with but I don't understand what they do. Do you have any recommendations for these settings?: Selection Timeout (ms), PCI burst rate (bytes), Wide ID (enabled or disabled), Fallback Sync Rate (MB/s), Specific Target, LUNs, Allow Disconnect, Tag Command Queuing, Sync Enabled for this ID, Sync Offset.

I do still have a different SCSI card and cable coming in the mail later this week. One of the card's that was recommended in the scanner's manual. I'll be able to try that soon for some additional troubleshooting.

 

[PaulD-UK]

@bluesmudge The thing that might be relevant to your situation is ‘Wide ID (enabled or disabled).’
Your scanner seems to be narrow SCSI, so if you can set the SCSI board to narrow - wide disabled - it should be more compatible, and the termination in the scanner and board should take care of termination.

 

[kencu]

Something else to consider.

I recalled my SCSI scanner was always set to ID 6. I think it's a convention for scanners, or maybe in some cases it could be a requirement.
The SCSI adapter in the computer is always ID 7.

Of course, if you can borrow (or have) any other SCSI device, you can at least verify that the SCSI system works at all.

 

[bluesmudge]

I got it working! But not with the ATTO card. An Adaptec SCSI card 2906 with a DV25 to Centronics 50 pin SCSI-1 cable is what worked.

The downsides are that the card slower than the ATTO card when used with compatible SCSI devices. The Adaptec card might also be OS9-only since it relies on OS9 extensions to run. I still need to try it in OSX to confirm.

The Adaptec SCSI card is fine for now because it matches the specs of the scanner (10 MB/second SCSI 2 and OS9 only). I might keep messing with the ATTO card in the future to be able to use SCSI under OSX but for now I have a usable workflow.

I'm not sure why the ATTO setup didn't work. It could have been the card hardware, the card's firmware, the software/drivers I was using, or maybe the cable I was using although the cable was brand-new.

 

[SnakeCoils]

I never had luck in connecting non-storage SCSI devices like film scanners to the ATTO controllers, I tried every model in the series (UL3D/UL4D on PCI G4 and UL5D on PCIe G5) but in the end I followed the Acard/Adaptec route and now I am perfectly fine with all my SCSI needs.
For storage devices like HDD or ODD they (ATTO) more or less works, sometime I was forced to add extra HDDs on the chain (in the middle or to the end) to made the devices visible but the communication was not reliable.
For some operations, like firmware updates via SCSI, the connection has to be absolutely stable. At present I have an Adaptec 2930CU in my MDD with OS9/Tiger and an ACARD 67162M in the other MDD with Leopard/SnowLeo PPC.
I also have a spare Acard 6712TUM in case genuine Fast SCSI is needed.