I have a hard time accepting this argument, for the most part. I go to one of the largest universities in the US (in terms of enrollment). Sure, I had huge lecture classes with hundreds of students, but you pointed out something very important in your own post - they are introductory classes. The only classes that have hundreds of students in them and are taught by graduate students are lower-division introductory classes. My upper division courses that pertain to my major have ~30 students at the most, and are always taught by professors.
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Anybody Applying to College?
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I have a hard time accepting this argument, for the most part. I go to one of the largest universities in the US (in terms of enrollment). Sure, I had huge lecture classes with hundreds of students, but you pointed out something very important in your own post - they are introductory classes. The only classes that have hundreds of students in them and are taught by graduate students are lower-division introductory classes. My upper division courses that pertain to my major have ~30 students at the most, and are always taught by professors.
this is pretty solid advice. although an Ivy undergrad degree can open a lot of grad school doors for you. More important though probably is your major. i would suggest majoring in Engineering right now and minoring in an art (music, theater etc.)
No, it's not. This is what you believe to be true.
Degrees from Ivy/elite schools DO open a lot of doors, particularly if you take advantage of research opportunities while you are an undergrad. A degree from CalTech or MIT reads differently on a resume/CV. Additionally, these schools are the ones that are better set up for interesting undergraduate projects and more research opportunities. If you're a serious student at a university with 3000 undergrads and over 10,000 grad students, it's almost impossible not to get deeply involved with a core group of profs who will get your name on some papers and give you great recommendations.
Regarding community college, as Badandy mentioned, there's a lot to be said for the freshman experience. Also, it's been demonstrated time and again that same/similar students who go into community college are much more likely to drop out of school than one who goes directly into a 4 year.
Worst advice in this thread. Do not study something you are not interested in. Not only will college be four long miserable years, but you will spend the rest of your life hating yourself if you do this, especially if it is a degree like Engineering which really restricts you in career choices.
Study whatever you want. Don't let others choose for you.
Very good advice. Never regret something you do, especially if it is going to cost $50,000 a year.
thats pretty bad advice as well in a sense
the return on "investment" is something any responsible person should evaluate to some degree
its all a balancing act
its nice to do what you love if you can. however, its also nice to be able to pay off your loans and make a living
You're thinking in purely monetary terms; I'm not. Any consideration I make about "return on investment" includes future happiness as well.
But then I also would advise most people to stay in-state and public for their undergraduate degree if they don't have a great scholarship for a private or out-of-state public university, and save the expensive part of your education for graduate school.
Some people are talking about $50k a year, but I will have spent less than $10k on my entire bachelors degree by staying in-state.
no im not...
i said it needs to be evaluated to some degree and that the decision is a balancing act
i agree
thats the way to do it really imo
I think we're on the same page then, that deciding a major is a personal decision.
What the hell? Did you even go to college? Or were you like one of the disgruntled drop-outs?
Not everyone knows their major right out of high school and needs some time to explore a bit more while they take core req courses. College is a good place because you can ask professors and advisors and other “pros” about what you want to do with your life before you commit to a program.
Because sometimes the state school doesn’t have your program…or isn’t as good? And maybe once you graduate, the extra bit of loans are pretty immaterial compared to your education?
What is this? Sour grapes? Ivy league schools contain Ivy league people. These are the best of the best and where you will find some of the most ambitious and competitive people who really care about the future and often care about making an impact with their lives. And this environment also rubs off on “young minds” as well. This is assuming you have the right material for this level of schooling and don’t fail out, of course. In contrast, going to a party school can make kids think that life is a party.
And graduate programs aren’t always the best in Ivy league schools. And industry pros at that level know which schools (can be state university) and specific programs to hire from to get good ppl without having to rely solely on “name”.
And when you transfer for a decent school you will find out that they don’t count classes from “community colleges”. Most community colleges are for people at the low ends on the academic scale and those who just entered the country. So their “worth” is also treated that way.
Take his advice if you want to ruin your life.
If they do exceptionally well in the last year, it “might” be considered potential as it was a vast improvement. But they won't be able to see the whole year, like toward the end, I think. The other thing that can help is if they “win” some prestigious competition or show some form of “leadership” in extra-curricular activities.
But you also have to consider that maybe you kid is not really meant for college and/or “more school”. If you force them they might just fail out or eventually drop out.
Or they can go to some trade school to get some technical skills to quickly enter the job market.
I would agree with this. Try to look for something within your interests or if anything, something you’re good at.
Engineering is actually one of the hardest disciplines and some ppl think that it makes good money (especially in this high-tech era). It often does, but that’s if you are at least decent at it. Otherwise you’re going to drop/fail out or even if you make it through, you might burn out because….technology changes. And technology fields often require life-long learning to be successful in it.
And art generally requires a specific inborn talent imo. And often…it also contrasts personality-wise with engineering. Not many people are good at both ends of the spectrum.
I think his point is, and I don't entirely disagree, that you can "explore a bit" for a hell of a lot cheaper at a community college. Its $26 a unit to explore at community college here, it can be anywhere from $5000 a semester to $1000+ per unit to explore elsewhere.
There is more than just Ivy League and party schools. While I would say that if you are accepted at an Ivy League school and you can go, you should, I don't really think anyone from an Ivy League is any more special than anyone from a good state program such as Berekely, UCLA, University of Virginia, etc. or even many smaller private programs.
Ivies tend to have good graduate programs in most fields. I'd say it would be better to go there for an advanced degree than for a bachelors mostly because of the availability of lots and lots of research funding that many, even top state schools, can lack.
No, lots of courses do transfer. In fact, if you plan in right, the vast majority of your courses can transfer. I know more than a few people who have transfered into Berkeley, UCLA, UCI, etc. from the CC system here in California and have had no problems finishing in what portion they have remaining of four years of study (usually two years at CC and two at university, though I have friends who have done one year at CC and two at university, and 2.5 years at CC and 1.5 at university). Also, lots of community college students aren't at the low end of the academic spectrum, cost is a huge factor in why many students go to them. Why pay thousands for lower level general eds taught by graduate students when you can pay $26 a unit for lower level general eds taught by professors with experience and a graduate degree in their name?
I never attended community college as a degree seeker, I go to a private liberal arts college, but I do take extra courses at CC (to save money since I take more than the standard 12-18 units full time tuition pays for and over 18 units at my college is over $900 a unit) and I've had numerous friends go there. Its a good system; it can set you up with excellent college opportunities after you finish some GE's and it can save you a small fortune. Does it have problems? Obviously, but so do most state and private schools.
Maybe it's different in California. The OP is East coast and I remebered hearing of ppl transfering from CC loosing a lot of credits in NY, where looks like he's from. But this was long time ago so things might have change. Maybe the discrepancy in costs these days change the rules. dunno.
The point about Ivy league is just to say that it does make a difference. And besides, I meant Ivy league as in the broad sense, not the traditional "litteral" 8 schools.
No doubt that “Ivy leagues” do get a lot of funding, but sometimes there are other factors…like a less-name school being near a military proving ground, etc.
Oddly enough, I just had a conversation about this with my sister, who's an Ivy/Oxbridge educated college professor. The first time she taught at a state school, she had to significantly change her curriculum.
In my experience and in the experience of most people I know who have been on both sides of the fence, there is a clear and significant difference.
Obviously, this does not apply to extremely competitive state schools that have Ivy/near Ivy standards, such Berkely or UVa.
It can definitely happen out here as well, you have to make sure what you're taking is transferable, a lot of people just assume it all transfers and take what ever they want, that is definitely not the case. Counseling/advising is definitely one of the weak points at CC, but if you seek the information it is definitely there; you have to be proactive and driven in community college if you want to get out in two years and transfer the majority of your courses (but then again you have to be pretty proactive and driven at any university too).
In California, community college students get top priority for transferring, and while the counselors and path-making process aren't so great, it definitely works.
Don't know where the community college trash talk comes from, though. Out here most classes are (at max) 25 students. Many of the professors worked at other universities, and most certainly aren't grad students (although I've had a couple of professors who were rather young).
Moreso, you don't have to deal with getting all of the old labs/equipment because you're a first/second year student!
As a community college student, I highly suggest you find the best university you can get into and go there. Yeah, you have to put up with poorly taught classes with 200 other students, but the life beats the hell out of community college life!
And then there's the bottom-of-the-bottom stigma that comes with it. I recall reading that if you want to go to an Ivy League school and went to community college, then you would have had to qualify straight out of high school in the first place.
Of course, a lot of that type of information comes from frustrated rejects and/or trolls on college application forums. I'm not joking.
Be positive. Just like buying a lottery ticket, the odds of getting into a top end school can be as ridiculous as you wish to make them out to be, but if you don't apply - you've guaranteed yourself no chance regardless.
Think of your major as a pocket knife. Chances are you will not be getting a job that directly correlates with it, eg an electrical engineer may get their first few jobs working at mattel working on barbie toys. If you pick out your program carefully, you can get one that can be used without too much commotion to do other things.
Don't know where the community college trash talk comes from, though. Out here most classes are (at max) 25 students. Many of the professors worked at other universities, and most certainly aren't grad students (although I've had a couple of professors who were rather young).
Moreso, you don't have to deal with getting all of the old labs/equipment because you're a first/second year student!
As a community college student, I highly suggest you find the best university you can get into and go there. Yeah, you have to put up with poorly taught classes with 200 other students, but the life beats the hell out of community college life!
And then there's the bottom-of-the-bottom stigma that comes with it. I recall reading that if you want to go to an Ivy League school and went to community college, then you would have had to qualify straight out of high school in the first place.
Of course, a lot of that type of information comes from frustrated rejects and/or trolls on college application forums. I'm not joking.
Be positive. Just like buying a lottery ticket, the odds of getting into a top end school can be as ridiculous as you wish to make them out to be, but if you don't apply - you've guaranteed yourself no chance regardless.
Think of your major as a pocket knife. Chances are you will not be getting a job that directly correlates with it, eg an electrical engineer may get their first few jobs working at mattel working on barbie toys. If you pick out your program carefully, you can get one that can be used without too much commotion to do other things.
I've never taken any CC academic courses, except back in high school, but I definitely like to get my learning on and CCs often offer stuff that are simply not available in your average Ivy. When I've had the time, I've taken cooking classes, sign language, welding, diesel engine repair and couple of courses that caught my interest when they mass mail their catalogs.
BTW, felt like adding my plans:
* Finish physics, calculus, and other necessities as possible at college I am currently at! (If you so much as fart in a community college, you can't get into a UC without them)...
Apply to:
* Stanford
* CalTech
* Berkeley
* Davis
* Irvine
Why not?
* Finish physics, calculus, and other necessities as possible at college I am currently at! (If you so much as fart in a community college, you can't get into a UC without them)...
Apply to:
* Stanford
* CalTech
* Berkeley
* Davis
* Irvine
Why not?
berkely UVA Michigan Wisconsin etc are often considered better than Ivy's nowadays FYI
Umm, take it with a grain of salt if you like. But from someone with a bachelors and 2 masters degrees and having taught at an Ivy league school I think I have a little more experience than someone who hasn't graduated college yet
Engineering undergrads have the MOST options after graduating, and the reason I said to minor in an art of somekind is that we will see that you are smart and multi-facilitated when applying for grad work.Some people think that it’s just the “reputation” that counts and all you have to do it get in and the rest of your life is a breeze and you might become President of the US someday.
In reality, a typical “freshman orientation” advice can go something like this…
You are here because you were better than 95% of your class.
Yes, you were hot stuff before but now you will have to get used to being among everyone who was better than 95% of their class.
Don’t let your past accomplishments get you your head.
Some of you got here because you are smart and barely hit the books back in high school.
If you think that will work from now on, you will fail as many people have learned the hard way.
Don’t fall into that trap as the standards here are much higher and more rigorous.
Yes, you were hot stuff before but now you will have to get used to being among everyone who was better than 95% of their class.
Don’t let your past accomplishments get you your head.
Some of you got here because you are smart and barely hit the books back in high school.
If you think that will work from now on, you will fail as many people have learned the hard way.
Don’t fall into that trap as the standards here are much higher and more rigorous.
I had a friend who failed out of one of these places and he blamed his college frat friends for getting into drinking and damaging his brain or something. While it’s true that alcohol kills brain cells, it’s not like any of his college drinking buddies failed too. But in his rambling he also mentions that back in his small town HS, he used to study real hard all the time and get good grades and be the in tops of his class. And in college, he did the same thing (besides his “weekend frat activities” I guess) but he just couldn’t get it. He would read and do the problems and he just couldn’t understand it well enough even though he tried.
So my "friend story" is a bit “anecdotal” but I do think that inherent talent does come into play and if your calling isn’t to one of these types of places (or that major), then it’s an uphill battle. He studied Engineering and perhaps it’s because he just sucked in math. That’s definitely not a subject for everyone…at least not in the advanced levels.
I know people who went to Ivy league schools and they are unemployed. Cant find work.
I know people who went to community college and they started their own businesses and have done quite well.
anyone on here trying to generalize that one type is this and that or means this or that is full of $%(#.
I know people who went to community college and they started their own businesses and have done quite well.
anyone on here trying to generalize that one type is this and that or means this or that is full of $%(#.