Anyone else abandoning ship?

[ADGrant]

Not being Unix is not necessary a disadvantage but I agree on the rest. A lot of the design decisions were made ages ago and they don't want to break compatibiliy. It basically patches over patches without any power to reboot the product like OSX did. I applaud Apple to have the guts to break stuff and innovate (even if there are side effects for some people).

I don't like the spyware approach MS is taking with all their products. You have telemetry everywhere: the OS, the Terminal app, Visual studio and even .net core app you create have telemetry builtin that talks back to MS. It's a very nasty approach. You search chrome and the first result is to download their Edge browser instead.

There are also things I don't like with the mac also.. every terminal command or application signature is sent back to apple (looks like a Microsoft thing to do) for validation. Even if it builds a temporary cache, I don't like it. Installing an app from the web seems a crime. When you launch it, it proposes to send it to the trash instead.

Their intentions is clearly to make sure you have all their devices and there is limited interest when you don't fully commit.

Apple card or watch requires an iPhone. Even if you own a computer or tablet, it's not enough. My Samsung watch works with both Android an iOS. I don't like the fact that they force you to have a credit card binded to your account at all time.

There's plenty of +- on both sides. I wouldn't mind getting an iMac but can't buy a machine that you can't open. Computer fans needs to be cleaned even if Apple understands it or not. They prefer that the machine choke up and die so that you buy a new one.

The fact that your employer doesn't support Linux, is not Linux fault but I do agree it sucks. I'm a Linux sysadmin and I'm force to have Windows (because of corporate policies that want to control all possible settings of my computer).

I don't like how hard an iMac is to open either. I would buy a Mac Mini if it wasn't so overpriced and came with a real GPU. One reason my employer won't support Linux as a desktop OS is so few of their employees use Linux on the desktop. The problem is Linux on the desktop is niche even compared to the MacOS. If you want Unix on the desktop (and I do), MacOS is the only widely supported option.

Not being Unix is a disadvantage when pretty much every other OS now in common use is Unix based or Unix like (well except for all those legacy IBM platforms) and most modern dev tools are Unix centric (e.g. git).

 

[762999]

I don't like how hard an iMac is to open either. I would buy a Mac Mini if it wasn't so overpriced and came with a real GPU. One reason my employer won't support Linux as a desktop OS is so few of their employees use Linux on the desktop. The problem is Linux on the desktop is niche even compared to the MacOS. If you want Unix on the desktop (and I do), MacOS is the only widely supported option.

Not being Unix is a disadvantage when pretty much every other OS now in common use is Unix based or Unix like (well except for all those legacy IBM platforms) and most modern dev tools are Unix centric (e.g. git).

I don't disagree with 99% of your opinion but when you relate to unix tools, Windows is getting better than Mac. Mac has it's own superset of command on top of BSD. I don't know when you would mention git, it's not included by default on Mac and it's also available with Windows (even with a unix environment). Most of the other tools (ruby/python/...) are available with homebrew which is an external project. I think without homebrew, many developer woudn't even use mac!

On a Mac, when you do a lot of shell script, It doesn't take long to notice that even if command names are familiar with Linux, that the commands or command line arguments are often incompatible. On Windows, once you enable WSL, you have a unix kernel + the userland of your choice (arch,ubuntu,debian,fedora) with the exact programs, commands and arguments that you would use on a Linux server which is what I personally prefer as a dev environment.

I agree the mini is overpriced (I almost bought, but it's so outdated). The new cpu/gpu can use hardware encoding for h265 video and leave the mini in the dust. I guess the AS mini will be way better than it's current incarnation. It will have a better gpu with the AS and probably better thermals. I'm just anxious to see the RAM pricing. Since the gpu and cpu will share the ram, I don't foresee machines below 16gb but I expect it to be non-socketed.

For me the thing where Mac add values is the quality of it's rich and curated app store. Mac and iOS apps are normally more polished there that any other app store. I also admire that it's the only OS with end to end color calibrated solution. Even if you calibrate your display with a hardware device under linux or windows (like I do), non-color aware apps don't display colors accurately (specially with wide gamuts monitor). So even Windows photo viewer or the background wallpaper is not color profile aware. Each application has to support it. Mac had the decency to make it standard across the OS and API, that alone need a standing ovation! 🙌

have a good day!

 

[kazmac]

No longer attempting to abandon ship. My current job tried to force me to move to Windows, that did not work (and they expected me to foot the bill too. Nope). My iMac can remote into the work PC and that is good enough.

Will use Windows at work and understand why people want or need to make the switch.

Otherwise, will keep using Macs at home, done fighting it.

 

[ADGrant]

I don't disagree with 99% of your opinion but when you relate to unix tools, Windows is getting better than Mac. Mac has it's own superset of command on top of BSD. I don't know when you would mention git, it's not included by default on Mac and it's also available with Windows (even with a unix environment). Most of the other tools (ruby/python/...) are available with homebrew which is an external project. I think without homebrew, many developer woudn't even use mac!

On a Mac, when you do a lot of shell script, It doesn't take long to notice that even if command names are familiar with Linux, that the commands or command line arguments are often incompatible. On Windows, once you enable WSL, you have a unix kernel + the userland of your choice (arch,ubuntu,debian,fedora) with the exact programs, commands and arguments that you would use on a Linux server which is what I personally prefer as a dev environment.

I agree the mini is overpriced (I almost bought, but it's so outdated). The new cpu/gpu can use hardware encoding for h265 video and leave the mini in the dust. I guess the AS mini will be way better than it's current incarnation. It will have a better gpu with the AS and probably better thermals. I'm just anxious to see the RAM pricing. Since the gpu and cpu will share the ram, I don't foresee machines below 16gb but I expect it to be non-socketed.

For me the thing where Mac add values is the quality of it's rich and curated app store. Mac and iOS apps are normally more polished there that any other app store. I also admire that it's the only OS with end to end color calibrated solution. Even if you calibrate your display with a hardware device under linux or windows (like I do), non-color aware apps don't display colors accurately (specially with wide gamuts monitor). So even Windows photo viewer or the background wallpaper is not color profile aware. Each application has to support it. Mac had the decency to make it standard across the OS and API, that alone need a standing ovation! 🙌

have a good day!

MacOS ships with Ruby & Python though if you want more recent versions you would have to use brew. I use git on Windows so I am familiar with the unix shell it comes with. To install git on Mac is very easy since it comes standard with the Apple command line developer tools. I have used various flavors of Unix over the last 30 years and while the MacOS command line tools seem like standard BSD to me. It's true that they aren't identical to Linux but then Linux is not actually BSD or Unix. It's a Unix compatible OS. That said docker, kubectl, helm and all the various cloud provider CLI tools seem to work just fine. If I need a real linux environment (for C++ or Swift say) I can either ssh to a VM on my NAS or fire up a VM on my Mac.

It's also true that the big advantage MacOS has over Linux is the desktop apps (many of which aren't available via the app store btw) What sets it apart from Windows is pretty much everything but hardware choice, games and access to certain applications. One major reason WSL was originally introduced was to try and attract web/cloud developers from the Mac. Their first attempt did not work so well, hence WSL2 with a full linux kernel running in the hypervisor. With the switch to ARM Macs, WSL2 is probably going to attract some developers to Windows.

 

[762999]

MacOS ships with Ruby & Python though if you want more recent versions you would have to use brew. I use git on Windows so I am familiar with the unix shell it comes with. To install git on Mac is very easy since it comes standard with the Apple command line developer tools. I have used various flavors of Unix over the last 30 years and while the MacOS command line tools seem like standard BSD to me. It's true that they aren't identical to Linux but then Linux is not actually BSD or Unix. It's a Unix compatible OS. That said docker, kubectl, helm and all the various cloud provider CLI tools seem to work just fine. If I need a real linux environment (for C++ or Swift say) I can either ssh to a VM on my NAS or fire up a VM on my Mac.

It's also true that the big advantage MacOS has over Linux is the desktop apps (many of which aren't available via the app store btw) What sets it apart from Windows is pretty much everything but hardware choice, games and access to certain applications. One major reason WSL was originally introduced was to try and attract web/cloud developers from the Mac. Their first attempt did not work so well, hence WSL2 with a full linux kernel running in the hypervisor. With the switch to ARM Macs, WSL2 is probably going to attract some developers to Windows.

I agree 🧐 ^^^ . And yes, MS is fully trying to get attention of linux enthusiasts and lure them to Windows with WSL & VS Code and VS Studio (that supports linux target and gdb remote debugging).

 

[wegster]

I don't disagree with 99% of your opinion but when you relate to unix tools, Windows is getting better than Mac. Mac has it's own superset of command on top of BSD. I don't know when you would mention git, it's not included by default on Mac and it's also available with Windows (even with a unix environment). Most of the other tools (ruby/python/...) are available with homebrew which is an external project. I think without homebrew, many developer woudn't even use mac!

On a Mac, when you do a lot of shell script, It doesn't take long to notice that even if command names are familiar with Linux, that the commands or command line arguments are often incompatible. On Windows, once you enable WSL, you have a unix kernel + the userland of your choice (arch,ubuntu,debian,fedora) with the exact programs, commands and arguments that you would use on a Linux server which is what I personally prefer as a dev environment.

...

For me the thing where Mac add values is the quality of it's rich and curated app store. Mac and iOS apps are normally more polished there that any other app store. I also admire that it's the only OS with end to end color calibrated solution. Even if you calibrate your display with a hardware device under linux or windows (like I do), non-color aware apps don't display colors accurately (specially with wide gamuts monitor). So even Windows photo viewer or the background wallpaper is not color profile aware. Each application has to support it. Mac had the decency to make it standard across the OS and API, that alone need a standing ovation! 🙌

You're not wrong here on a few things.
In my previous role as sw engineer/architect and often system and network admin, I routinely ran Linux on my laptops with Windows in a VM for 'when I really must' or vice versa, Windows on the laptop with Linux VMs. MacOS was laughable for my usage until they went to OS X, and I finally gave in as my work roles were changing towards more presentations, mgmt, ... - and went to a MBP with both Linux and Windows VMs. Hated it for a while, but having BSD underpinnings, a replacement worthwhile terminal (iTerm2 nowadays), and ports or homebrew stopped me from reloading the MBP with Linux.

Nowadays, I still use a MBP as primary, but have WSL set up along with VMs on the official work system and some for other specific uses, and Ubuntu for WSL is good enough I used it to give an all day SDK session including building a fair amount of (Linux) code... I have not tried to use WSL for long-running server processes, which I expect are still a bit easier to do on macOS (or of course - Linux), but WSL...is quite good, even if admitting it begrudgingly as I truly am far from a fan of MS.

The Appstore...is a double-edged sword. I am still not a fan of the Apple walled garden, but it is somewhat the difference between 'appstore or crapstore' looking at phone/tablet offerings on iPhone and iPads vs Android. I remain hopeful they do not try too hard to combine macOS and IOS and force appstore only any time soon for the mac - I can probably survive moving off Intel depending on performance, even with what will likely be some miserable (Windows) VM performance, but if macos apps become appstore only, I'll be gone.

 

[dudeslife]

I am farther away from abandoning ship than I was last year. It got easier when I finally accepted that I will NEVER be able to play real games on a Mac. So I paid Woot $300 for a 2013 Optiplex then put a $150 video card in it. I can now play all of the games I have been denied for the past 10 years. Comand & Conquer Remastered, Red Dead Redemption 2, Planet Coaster, Planet Zoo all run beautifully so I continue to use my 2017 Macbook Pro/2010 Cinema Display (still working) for grownup stuff and my windows 10 pc for games. It's a nice balance.

The hardest part of abandoning ship for me is not leaving the hardware as macs have become overpriced low-end machines, it would be leaving behind some quality software. While Windows 10 now has TextExpander, 1Password, and Scrivener, I would really miss other software like Omnifocus, Hazel, Keyboard Maestro, Alfred, Drafts, and Day One.

 

[LeeW]

I can now play all of the games I have been denied for the past 10 years. Comand & Conquer Remastered, Red Dead Redemption 2, Planet Coaster, Planet Zoo all run beautifully so I continue to use my 2017 Macbook Pro/2010 Cinema Display (still working) for grownup stuff and my windows 10 pc for games. It's a nice balance.

I actually had a time when all I did was use steam to stream games to my Mac Mini from the PC so I all I had to do was turn on the PC but not actually have to use it, worked great.

 

[LeeW]

No longer attempting to abandon ship.

I always say to people that are in this position, you don't need to justify it. As long as you are comfortable with the decision that is all that matters. You may remember from another thread that I sold all of my macOS devices then my employer gifted me a 13" MBP. Base model with 128GB of SSD but I have crept into using it for some things.

Honestly, if Apple hit it out of the park with ARM, that is better performance either through more powerful ARM chips or through better thermals without being more powerful, extended battery life and so on. I may just find myself heading back.

To me Mac is the best machine for productivity, always will be.

 

[Polly Mercocet]

Some very interesting discussion here.

I have a 2015 MBP as my main laptop and while it's laggier than it once was and the battery has lost many cycles, it is still perfectly workable for most of my uses and I'm not planning on a new laptop any point soon.

What really has annoyed me is not the laptop itself but the number of Magsafe adapters I've gone through since owning it. When I first got it I also got AppleCare+ so the first three were free replacements since AppleCare+ lasts three years and I find I need a new cable yearly. Every single one starts fraying like mad, I get exposed wires, and my last one actually had some strange green goo leaking out of it which even the Apple Store "geniuses" had no idea about.

But now my extended warranty has expired I'm paying £60 for that cable each time it breaks, which is every year, and I've had to do that twice now. As I type this I can see the cable I own right now (roughly six months old) is turning yellow in multiple spots and I'm sure I'll see exposed wires on this soon enough too.

If I do end up replacing my laptop with something other than a Mac it won't be because my 2015 machine has anything wrong with it, it'll be because having to constantly pay so much for new chargers is crazy especially for such an expensive machine. I cannot go third party because the cable that frays is attached to the actual transformer and dodgy fakes have been known to catch fire. So my choice is either: live with increasingly exposed wires and enjoy the fire risk, buy a dodgy cheap fake and enjoy the fire risk, or pay £60 to put off the fire risk for another year.

Apple know this is a problem because the reviews for their Magsafe adapters are full of stories virtually identical to mine but they don't care and the "geniuses" deny the issue exists at all and blame me for it every single time. Horrible customer service from a company that demands so much money for its hardware.

A new MBP would of course be superior in this respect since they now use USB-C chargers. So third party cables are zero problem there and I can get away from Apple's lack of ability to engineer a simple wire. But I simply resent paying over a grand for another MBP when my current one would be fine if Apple could make a long-lasting charger like every single other laptop in the world. Especially when their customer service is so horribly rude about it despite many customers having the same issue.

So my current setup is my MBP is used for general internet and media consumption as well as managing virtual servers, scripting Python, building static websites... nothing that requires too much horsepower. My iPad Pro supplements it. And if I want to do something my MBP simply cannot do (e.g. transcoding 4K video... try doing that on a five year old laptop... it's not fun) I have two Intel NUC's, the most expensive of which cost me under £500 to spec out.

With those you buy the box that has the CPU you want then you add your own RAM and SSD. So I got one 8th gen i3 box running as a Plex server and one 8th gen i5 running as a desktop computer with a 4K monitor. Both are running Linux and work like a dream. As a bonus, the 8th gen NUC boxes come with Intel Iris graphics not Intel HD/UHD. The 10th gen downgraded the graphics to Intel UHD while barely improving CPU performance. So if you are curious about the NUC, save some money and get an 8th gen, they are amazing value little boxes and far superior to a Mac Mini. My i5 one has 16GB RAM and a 500GB SSD for under £500! It also has an extra storage slot so I can add more flash memory later.

I will most likely use this MBP until it conks out or I get sick of paying Apple for chargers, after which point I'll spread my use between my iPad Pro and my i5 NUC. The iPad Pro is becoming a serious laptop replacement as Apple's silicon is bloody amazing and of course an iPad is far more portable. I have yet to try any kind of programming on it though and have no idea how well that'd work out. But using it to SSH into VPS's is easy peasy so I can do at least some "pro" stuff on it.

As for work, I have a standard company issued Thinkpad running Windows 10 (no choice in this) like most companies give out these days. It's actually some really nice hardware to be honest. Would I get one for myself? Not sure. I don't know if I can trust Chinese branded laptops especially when Lenovo in particular has done some shady things in the past (Superfish anyone?) so if I wanted a new laptop I'd probably get one of those enterprise grade Dells with official Linux support or something. But I'd see how I get on with my iPad Pro as my "laptop" first honestly. With it being a secondary machine to a desktop I doubt I'd have much issue with that once I got used to it. I already use the iPad Pro instead of a laptop while travelling.

 

[kazmac]

I always say to people that are in this position, you don't need to justify it. As long as you are comfortable with the decision that is all that matters. You may remember from another thread that I sold all of my macOS devices then my employer gifted me a 13" MBP. Base model with 128GB of SSD but I have crept into using it for some things.

Honestly, if Apple hit it out of the park with ARM, that is better performance either through more powerful ARM chips or through better thermals without being more powerful, extended battery life and so on. I may just find myself heading back.

To me Mac is the best machine for productivity, always will be.

All good. For me, whatever works best for the user is just fine. I needed to see those words in print to move on.

I hope the tech you use continues to work wonderfully for your needs. Perhaps we’ll be talking about AS Macs at some point.

 

[grmlin]

So, if anyone is interested: I did it some month ago after having a terrible time with the 2019 15" I got last September. The MacBook was a total disaster, got a new logic board, I got it back with a warped case and noisy fans... in the end we gave up and I was done with running around getting that damn thing fixed. Fun fact: it's still not fixed, and we don't know if we will ever get the money back from Cyberport here in Germany, who are the reason for that mess.

So, I got a Lenovo P53. One thick and heavy laptop. While I expected it to be more quiet, it's thermals are still on another level compared to my Macs I used before. It runs soooo much cooler, but I guess that's to be expected considering it's size. I also got an OLED screen, which is absolutely beautiful. Oh, and the keyboard. Oh my god did I miss a good keyboard. I don't like that it has a numpad, but it's such a joy to type on. And I will never ever buy a mac with a touchbar again. It's an absolutely terrible decision to not have this as an option.

That said: I originally planned to run Linux on it. Which, normally, runs just fine on Thinkpads. BUT, don't you ever try to use Linux with one or more high DPI screens expecting some useful scaling. It either does not work at all (in my case), or it's slow and buggy.
So here I am, using WSL 2 and it's fine. I still wait for Jetbrains to fully support it (right now using VSCode which works fantastic), but it's already a acceptable solution. It depends on your setup, of course, but I'm happy with it. The fact that I can export 90% of my work environment into a tar file and just import that again is awesome.

Windows though, that's a tough one. It's great in some places, and just mind blowing old school in others. It often feels like MS stopped working on most elements of it in the middle of development. I really hope they keep pushing the UI forward, because right now it's a terrible mix of new UI and UI straight out of Windows 95.
It does manage UI scaling better than other OSs though, if, and that's the caveat, the application supports it. All the applications I use do, so I'm fine. There is no noticeable performance impact scaling Windows (unlike MacOS, which is still a total pain to use scaled), and I can combine multiple monitors with different resolutions and scaling without problems. Something that Linux can only dream of.


All in all can I say, that I miss MacOS sometimes, iMessage is a great loss for me, and some other apps i used too. But, I could not tolerate the hardware and service here in Germany anymore. My P53 had a bad fan, and it was replaced somewhere in Germany, while I visited my parents... try that with a Mac.

 

[agaskew]

Windows though, that's a tough one. It's great in some places, and just mind blowing old school in others. It often feels like MS stopped working on most elements of it in the middle of development. I really hope they keep pushing the UI forward, because right now it's a terrible mix of new UI and UI straight out of Windows 95.

I have to agree with this, not only with the W10 UI but many other Microsoft products. Currently I'm working with the Power Platform stuff at work, and a lot of these just seem half finished - there are connectors that get you nearly all the way to something useful, but then they're missing that really obvious last thing.

The home made desktop PC here is now running Linux Mint 20 Cinnamon, and so far it has been practically flawless. It really has come a long way, and may be an interesting option for people wishing to look beyond Apple with a PC, but who don't like W10.

 

[yurc]

I don't know if I can trust Chinese branded laptops especially when Lenovo in particular has done some shady things in the past (Superfish anyone?)

True. I won't consider any Lenovo lineup anymore since that SuperFish fiasco, my trust is gone. I'd prefer Dell and HP when it comes to pre-build system workstation, though I already comfortable with self build box right now.

The most annoyance of W10 is their Windows Defender. They actively false alarming my hosts file containing thousand of line of adware and W10 telemetry blocker and marked as HostHijackTool. That hosts file are saved on iCloud folder and shared to be used together between my Mac and Windows computer.

 

[Nugget]

That hosts file are saved on iCloud folder and shared to be used together between my Mac and Windows computer.

You should just set up a Pi-hole server for your network. It’ll work for all the devices on your network (even mobile and IoT) and be a lot less hassle than shuttling around a hosts file everywhere.

 

[Polly Mercocet]

You should just set up a Pi-hole server for your network. It’ll work for all the devices on your network (even mobile and IoT) and be a lot less hassle than shuttling around a hosts file everywhere.

Seconding Pi Hole. I have one locally on my network installed on an actual Pi 3, and I also have it installed on my VPN server which is very easy to do. So now any device on my LAN has ads blocked at DNS level (with the odd exception like Chromecast where Google DNS is hardcoded) and the greatest thing about this is I can even block the ads and trackers on devices like smart TVs. I now get blank boxes where the ads are supposed to be.

When I'm out and about, I have AdGuard on my iPhone and iPad which works great in Safari, and if I connect to my VPN there's no ads in any other apps either. Although it's a shame there is no DoT support for iOS yet even in the iOS 14 beta (unless I missed it?) as then I could just use AdGuard's DNS as I do on my Android devices.

I even maintain my own custom Pi Hole lists and distribute them openly for anyone who wants them, and I set up a site listing them all out and what they do, as well as hosting tutorials on how to set up a Pi Hole and a FAQ for non-technical users. I've actually got a surprising number of users around the world using my lists. Especially the Xiaomi one, because those phones have become popular especially in developing markets, but they phone home like crazy and have ads inside the OS! Well, not if you run my lists

I'd link my site here but I'm a new user and don't want anyone to think I'm spamming. But if anyone actually wants to see it, I am happy to link it. The stie has no ads on it (would be hypocritical if it did!) so I make no money from it, just a pet project of mine. I got a list for general mobile ads and trackers as well as lists to block W10 telemetry, lists for blocking all of FB, IG, WhatsApp for people who want to be Zuck-free (as I do), and lists to block Xiaomi ads/trackers, TikTok, ads/trackers on common smart TVs, etc...

I want to do one for OnePlus too but don't have access to a OnePlus phone on a stock ROM for testing.

 

[Polly Mercocet]

I notice my Pi Hole comment above seems to be stuck in a filter. Mods, if you want to remove mentions of my site that's no problem. I make zero money from it but still I understand a new user talking about a site I made potentially giving the wrong impression.

TL;DR: A Pi Hole is a great idea. I have a physical one set up on a Pi 3 in my LAN and a virtual one within my self-hosted VPN. I maintain my own set of blocklists for them and the greatest thing is you can block ads on devices you can't install ad blockers on e.g. smart TVs.

 

[jerryk]

You should just set up a Pi-hole server for your network. It’ll work for all the devices on your network (even mobile and IoT) and be a lot less hassle than shuttling around a hosts file everywhere.

Agreed pi-hole works great and makes browsing so much faster.

No more waiting for bidding sites to sell your screen for displaying ads.

 

[Polly Mercocet]

Looks like the mods approved my post so if anyone wants to check out my Pi Hole lists here you go

Official FTPiHole Blocklist Collection - FTPiHole

A wide selection of ad, tracking, and malware blocking lists for the Pi Hole, AdGuard Home, uBlock Origin, and more!

ftpihole.com