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Anyone else having issues with series 4 on London underground?
- Thread starter twynne
- Start date
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Thanks - so there's at least two of us!
I've literally registered on this forum to tell you that you are not alone. I thought I was going mad - AW4, probably red light at tube gates 80% of the time and then works at the second attempt. It's so frustrating and does annoy people queuing.
I actually work in digital and mobile payments and have done so for years, so by coincidence was experimenting a month ago with different devices to see what the success rate, as on AW1 I used to also get "Card Unavailable" about once a week.
- Fitbit - Fitbit Pay works flawlessly at any TfL Barrier, 100% success for a week even from an inch or two away
- Garmin - Garmin Pay works flawlessly also, 100% success for a week although anecdotally not as quick at Fitbit
- AW1 - ApplePay generally works flawlessly but slower to read and has "card unavailable" issues once a week
- AW4 - ApplePay fails first time 80% of the time (red light) often with watch showing "Done". Works second time
In other words the reader detects something from an inch or two away before you've had a chance to touch but then decides it doesn't like it or can't accept it. There is no way round this issue from my experience. Has Apple issued any feedback?
Mine has been failing most of the time too, and I’ve reverted to using my phone instead. The first few weeks I had the watch, it worked reliably. Now I frequently get either the “done” error reported above, or the gate tells me I’m using too many cards, as though I were trying to swipe a wallet loaded with several contactless cards. It’s pretty irritating.
Haven't seen anything from Apple as yet, but I have tested further and it seems the message I'm getting is the "use one card"... Which suggests that somehow the reader is detecting more than one card present. I've passed the info onto TfL and they continue to investigate. Will post here if anything useful.
I took my AW4 to the Apple Store and after a little argument with them claiming that this is a TfL problem they agreed to replace the watch. Let's see if the new one works better when I receive it.
How is this going with the new watch? I recently replaced my main card (the one previously used for TFL travel) and note that the new default payment card doesn't work any better than the previous, so it's definitely not an issue with the card. It's got to be either the watch, the reader(s), or the compatibility between the two.
Couple of minor updates...
#1 - Finally heard back from TFL and they've simply said they've had complaints from other users and continue to investigate.
#2 - Went ahead and raised the issue formally with AppleCare and await further response from them as well.
Evidence suggests this issue is limited to the Series 4 and TFL readers as the watch continues to work 100% everywhere else I've tried it. If anyone has more positive experience such as a replacement watch resolving the issue, etc., please post here.
#1 - Finally heard back from TFL and they've simply said they've had complaints from other users and continue to investigate.
#2 - Went ahead and raised the issue formally with AppleCare and await further response from them as well.
Evidence suggests this issue is limited to the Series 4 and TFL readers as the watch continues to work 100% everywhere else I've tried it. If anyone has more positive experience such as a replacement watch resolving the issue, etc., please post here.
Another, likely final, update...
Heard back from Apple this morning and they confirm there is a likely compatibility issue with many TFL payment terminals and they are in communication with TFL with regard to the issue. The suggestion is that eventually these terminals will need upgrading (not sure if hardware or firmware) to work properly with newer payment types and devices. They confirm the NFC in Series 4 *is* newer than previous devices.
Apple has asked that people log the issues at the following link so they can compile more data and continue to work with TFL to resolve:
https://www.apple.com/feedback/apple-pay.html
Heard back from Apple this morning and they confirm there is a likely compatibility issue with many TFL payment terminals and they are in communication with TFL with regard to the issue. The suggestion is that eventually these terminals will need upgrading (not sure if hardware or firmware) to work properly with newer payment types and devices. They confirm the NFC in Series 4 *is* newer than previous devices.
Apple has asked that people log the issues at the following link so they can compile more data and continue to work with TFL to resolve:
https://www.apple.com/feedback/apple-pay.html
Finally got my replacement Series 4 watch on the 17th of February. Hard to believe that it took so long but I guess this is what Apple Support quality is nowadays.
Been out of the country for a week but now have been using the new watch for two days and so far no TfL failures. Will report back after some more time.
So is the conclusion that only some watches are affected by the acknowledged compatibility issues. Kiril's original one being an affected one and his replacement OK.
I haven't been to London since getting my AW4 recently, but will want it to work when I do.
Can't be too many affected AW4s or this thread would be longer.
I haven't been to London since getting my AW4 recently, but will want it to work when I do.
Can't be too many affected AW4s or this thread would be longer.
We still need to wait and see to be sure that the replacement I got definitely does not suffer from the same issue.
What I forgot to mention is that at some point I had to give my watch to Apple and have been using a solid steel AW4 for a week. That one had zero failures. So maybe it’s just the aluminium ones that have the problem.
Mine is steel and randomly fails to this day.
Thus far, Apple is blaming Tfl and Tfl is blaming Apple... Not surprising.
In response to the suggestion that it's only some watches, I suspect it's more likely that relatively few users are bothering to use Apple watch on Tfl services.
Cool, good to know that it's not just aluminium ones.
I was a shocked when Apple tried to tell me that it's not their problem and I should go and speak with TfL.
I think it's posted somewhere above, but the explanation Apple gave me (and I tend to believe) is that the AW4 has a new NFC system and that the older TFL readers seem to have problems with it. They suggested upgraded/newer readers should be ok, but it's unclear if that's just new firmware for TFL to roll out or completely new hardware. Would be interesting to know if the newer stations still exhibit the issue.
I tend to use Canary Wharf and Waterloo and a few DLR stations the most. All of these will likely have older readers. Sadly it's probably quite difficult to gather any reliable stats on this.
[doublepost=1551205178][/doublepost]
One thing I would add... it seems inevitable if newer NFC equipment presents compatibility issues that eventually TFL will need to update their kit. People are now replacing phones every 1-2 years, and I imagine Apple Watch will refresh at a similar rate.
Recently upgraded from serious 2. Same issue with Watch 4 on TFL oyster readers on the tube and buses, anywhere else is fine.
At the moment I just keep on holding it on the reader. I get beeps and errors but after a couple of seconds, it registers it. Works every time but quite annoying, it a new watch.
At the moment I just keep on holding it on the reader. I get beeps and errors but after a couple of seconds, it registers it. Works every time but quite annoying, it a new watch.
Interesting that it eventually works... I usually give up as soon as I get the error/red light and end up activating apple pay on the watch again. Second attempt generally works, but sometimes it takes 3-4 attempts. If there's anyone behind me I end up stepping out to let anyone else pass through, then trying again.
Have you noticed the error 'use one card' on the reader as well? That implies that it somehow read more than one card, but that's not possible on the watch as far as I can tell! (And my wallet/phone are nowhere near the reader when this happens!)
No, I haven't noticed that but I am not surprised. I think that something in the watch is confusing the Oyster reader.
The best thing is just to keep on holding it against the reader, it will work.
Since I am using it on a daily basis, I have decided to take it to the Apple store. Let's see what they have to say.
The best thing is just to keep on holding it against the reader, it will work.
Since I am using it on a daily basis, I have decided to take it to the Apple store. Let's see what they have to say.
I have a feeling it’s something at the watch end. I seem to get a cumulative degrade that resets if I reboot.
Mine has been working fine all week, until coming home last night. A couple of second attempts on the tube, then fine on the bus.
This morning it took 3 attempts on the bus. I restarted and it was fine on the tube.
It’s difficult to work out a pattern, because the reader is always different - different bus, tube gate etc - there are too many variables.
[doublepost=1552045503][/doublepost]Apple were nice and supportive. They asked me to reset everything, unpair and pair again then reinstall the cards. The problem is still there but if I just keep my watch close to the oyster reader it will register it. I can live with that.
That's exactly the message I get - my update, as someone who posted previously on this, and uses TfL every day, it has got no better. Quite regularly - nearly half the time I use it - it fails (red lights) on the first read, and then green lights the second.
Some days it is a disaster, its effectiveness seems to be inversely proportional to the size of the queues. Yesterday evening I was going into Bond Street at rush hour and it failed 3 consecutive times at 2 gates with lots of tutting and queuing up twice.
I eventually got through the wide-entry gates at the first time of asking. I immediately asked the TfL guy what was up for that to happen - getting 6 failures at two gates then work fine 7th time and a third. He was totally dismissive and disinterested.
Someone mentioned it degrades over time until a reboot - that sounds logical but is not my experience. It simply seems to fail sporadically (at least every other day) and then in patches much more regularly, and then for periods less, all without reboot.
It's definitely station specific - usually at stations with higher throughput. I rarely have issues at my home station. I also rarely had it on buses either: about 1/50 attempts vs 1/3 on the underground/overground. And of course never in non-TfL locations.
I haven't raised it with TfL but will do so now, as they responded to a (individually more serious) station conduct issue very professionally. Interested to hear any updates from those that have also escalated to either Apple or TfL since March?
Pretty much matches my experience. Since that last post I've started just holding it on the reader (after getting the initial red light) and in a high proportion of cases that will work.
The odd thing for me is that it fails 'more consistently' at certain stations. Surbiton station, at the entrance gates, fails nearly every time. All the more frustrating as there are only 1 or 2 entrance gates going in the right direction and therefore almost inevitably a queue.
It also frequently fails at the Tower Gateway DLR exit, and the exit gates at Green Park are also bad. Exiting at Canary Wharf is another place. Certainly Tower Gateway and Canary Wharf where I exit very rarely have a queue so that doesn't fit the theory around it failing when busy.
I'm leaning toward it being an issue with certain readers possibly having older hardware/firmware that makes them very 'sensitive'.
It remains *hugely* frustrating as it's otherwise such a convenient way to travel - no fishing for wallet/phone, no authenticating with FaceID, etc. Many will of course take the view that you can just swap to another method, but you can't just do this on the occasion that it acts up as you lose daily/weekly capping if you use another card/device.
I use my AW4 every day, and get failures around once or twice a week. I tend to setup the watch about 15 seconds away from the terminal.
I've found it works better if I pause slightly to ensure the person in front of me is clear. I always wriggle my wrist in a 2cm circular motion. It takes about half a second before the gates open.
Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones...not sure, but as long as I don't try and rush it, it works. It's certainly not 'tap and go', that is for sure.
I've found it works better if I pause slightly to ensure the person in front of me is clear. I always wriggle my wrist in a 2cm circular motion. It takes about half a second before the gates open.
Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones...not sure, but as long as I don't try and rush it, it works. It's certainly not 'tap and go', that is for sure.