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Meh, I've had my Rolex 15 years and I've never serviced it, call me lazy. A house isn't an asset? Sorry but that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. At the end of the day the house and land have value. Sure it can be a negative asset as we all saw with the housing meltdown, but any investment can go sour. You know what they are not making any more of? Land. Structure your mortgage correctly, pick a 15 or 10 year mortgage, pay extra on principal, pay every week instead of monthly, use the interest, taxes and capital expenses as write offs, etc.

Plus how do you know your rentals will bring in positive cashflow? They are a business to be managed just like anything else and they can win or lose. Trust me, I've had lots of rentals and I've had to bail out of some of them. The reality ain't like those gurus (who make their money off the saps who pay for their seminars btw) say it is. Non-occupancy, losing money going to court, court ordered non paying tenants, mechanical failures (usually at 3am), snow removal, maintenance, emergency calls, etc etc all add up. Plus don't forget that rental property is still subject to the same forces owning a house are, market ups and downs, etc. Man, that brings me back to a time in my life about 15 years ago when I listened to every real estate guru out there and bought a bunch of apartment buildings, then realized the reality was different than driving to the bank counting your money every day.

A watch can be an asset, just like a coin collection or a stock investment. They can gain, lose or break even and that's the risk you take. You keep saying you can't gain money from a watch, but if I sold my watch tomorrow I would make a profit even factoring in inflation, how is that not making money?

Sorry man, you just sound like you don't have a grasp of basic finances and investing. Now I'm not saying I invest all my money on watches, hell no. But I am saying there are some watches which can be assets in that they have financial value and that value appreciates over time into a potential profit. If someone wants to diversify a bit and invest in a collectible, watch, or even precious metals it's just a matter of accepting the risk.

There are property management companies who will handle all those tasks. If you are smart, you don't need to worry about a phone call at 3 in the morning from a tenant about an overflow toilet.

Not everyone can become a business person or a property owner. If you know you can't handle it, get a team who can help you. It sounds like you have already given up on the idea of finances or investing. Of course mistakes will be made, that's how people learn, from finances, to property management, to other parts of their professional and personal lives. Not every property will have positive cashflow, that's why you have to educate yourself and do your research before you go into it, like the local economy, jobs moving away/to the area.

I can tell you is that the watch profitability is not a repeatable model. If it's a rare and high quality item, it may have some capital gain. But can you repeat that model by buying a few hundred or thousands of those watches, then one day, you decide to flood the market and sell them? The value of those watches will go down. With real estate cashflow, the model can be repeated. The more properties/units you have, the more money goes into your pocket, and you don't need to wait for decades before you start to get money in your pocket. Some property already have positive cashflow right from when you buy it. But this is not something the average Joe can just do. It takes a lot of education. You can't just buy a property blindly and think it will have a guarantee positive cashflow.

For cashflow properties, I don't care which way the value of my property goes, up or down. If it goes down, that's would be a benefit to me because I'll just pay less in taxes. There's no need to sell the property for capital gain, unless I can get a benefit from doing so, like buying a bigger property that generates more cashflow and help people get more jobs. I haven't even mention all the tax benefits from improving the economy, putting a roof over peoples heads, and creating jobs by doing this.

You aren't the only who says "Your house is an asset.". It's a great place to live in and raise your family, but it's not an asset. An asset has to put money in your pocket. It may be your banks asset, because they are earning interests from it, but to the homeowner, it is a liability. Not only do you have to pay the bank interests on the money borrowed, but you have to pay property tax, maintenances and repairs, utilities, and so on. The only way you can turn that home into an asset is if you start making money from it, like renting it out to tenants.

This is a paradigm shift from the corporate programming. Your definition of an asset is something that has value (and might go up). My definition of an asset is something that puts money in my pocket (every month), no matter what directions the value goes, up, down, or sideways. With a property like rentals, business, hotels, you can increase your profit by improving it, build relationships, create more customers, and so on. With capital gain, you have no control on whether the value will go up or down, like the stock market. All you can do is buy, hold, and hope it will go up. When it comes to investing, hope is a losing strategy.

Your thinking is similar to a typical middle class person: Get a job/profession, buy an house, car, boat, luxury toys. Because those have value and might go up; therefore, it is an asset. You may also have money in the 401K/pension retirement account. There's nothing wrong with that.

I'm not here to insult anybody. I learn a lot from this discussion and how others see things, and I hope other readers learn a lot as well.
 
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He could also just be wrong. "Rich" people invest in luxury watches because they are unique and hold their value. An Apple Watch is not nor will ever be unique, no more so than anyones iphone. It will also depreciate in value, year after year. The AW is in the consumer electronics category, not the watch category, no matter how hard apple tries to sell it as a timeless piece of jewelry.

I think it is a bit cavalier to assume that the high end mechanical watches will continue to hold their value. No investment is guaranteed, especially one that doesn't produce a revenue stream. General global change has created a rising tide for luxury goods, but I don't think this is guaranteed.

Agreed that Apple watch is very unlikely to be a collectors item and retain significant value. But I think with a battery replacement or even upgrade the resale value in a few years might surprise people. By that I mean being able to sell it for half its cost in two or three years. That would be a huge win for early adopters.
 
I am not a watch person however I do appreciate a nice looking watch.
In my opinion the Apple watch is not in the same category as a Rolex.

The Rolex is a thing of craftsmanship and beauty.
The Apple watch is a microcomputer in a pretty enclosure.

If anyone is having withdrawals from their Rolex they bought it for all the wrong reasons. Just my no watch wearing opinion but a passionate appreciation for fine craftsmanship.
 
There are property management companies who will handle all those tasks. If you are smart, you don't need to worry about a phone call at 3 in the morning from a tenant about an overflow toilet.

Not everyone can become a business person or a property owner. If you know you can't handle it, get a team who can help you. It sounds like you have already given up on the idea of finances or investing. Of course mistakes will be made, that's how people learn, from finances, to property management, to other parts of their professional and personal lives. Not every property will have positive cashflow, that's why you have to educate yourself and do your research before you go into it, like the local economy, jobs moving away/to the area.

I can tell you is that the watch profitability is not a repeatable model. If it's a rare and high quality item, it may have some capital gain. But can you repeat that model by buying a few hundred or thousands of those watches, then one day, you decide to flood the market and sell them? The value of those watches will go down. With real estate cashflow, the model can be repeated. The more properties/units you have, the more money goes into your pocket, and you don't need to wait for decades before you start to get money in your pocket. Some property already have positive cashflow right from when you buy it. But this is not something the average Joe can just do. It takes a lot of education. You can't just buy a property blindly and think it will have a guarantee positive cashflow.

For cashflow properties, I don't care which way the value of my property goes, up or down. If it goes down, that's would be a benefit to me because I'll just pay less in taxes. There's no need to sell the property for capital gain, unless I can get a benefit from doing so, like buying a bigger property that generates more cashflow and help people get more jobs. I haven't even mention all the tax benefits from improving the economy, putting a roof over peoples heads, and creating jobs by doing this.

You aren't the only who says "Your house is an asset.". It's a great place to live in and raise your family, but it's not an asset. An asset has to put money in your pocket. It may be your banks asset, because they are earning interests from it, but to the homeowner, it is a liability. Not only do you have to pay the bank interests on the money borrowed, but you have to pay property tax, maintenances and repairs, utilities, and so on. The only way you can turn that home into an asset is if you start making money from it, like renting it out to tenants.

This is a paradigm shift from the corporate programming. Your definition of an asset is something that has value (and might go up). My definition of an asset is something that puts money in my pocket (every month), no matter what directions the value goes, up, down, or sideways. With a property, you can increase your profit by improving it, build relationships, create more customers, and so on. With capital gain, you have no control on whether the value will go up or down, like the stock market. All you can do is buy, hold, and hope it will go up. When it comes to investing, hope is a losing strategy.

Your thinking is similar to a typical middle class person: Get a job/profession, buy an house, car, boat, luxury toys. Because those have value and might go up; therefore, it is an asset. You may also have money in the 401K/pension retirement account. There's nothing wrong with that.

Of course a house is an asset, I can sell it tomorrow and take my money, or lose my money. An asset doesn't have to be something that generates cash, it can be a real or tangible asset which has a value. I didn't buy my house to provide me a cashflow, I bought it so my family and I could live in it and enjoy it. I own 20 apartment buildings in central NY which a partner manages and maintains, we bought them right and fixed them up cheaply. All the stuff you mention isn't free, and it's much more expensive if you farm it out. The rental market is still very tough, non occupancy, management fees, mechanical failures, etc. The profit margin is fairly slim in the rental market once you factor in everything. Certainly you can play the long game and know you have tenants paying your mortgages. That's how I play mine, 15 year mortgages paid weekly, not much profit to speak of from month to month but they are in good condition and being paid for not out of my pocket. By your definition they are not assets. The apartments were an investment, I have my own business which generates my cashflow from my 2 hands.

I agree with your statement "Your definition of an asset is something that has value (and might go up). My definition of an asset is something that puts money in my pocket (every month), no matter what directions the value goes, up, down, or sideways" We are just going back and forth on our opinions and financial strategies, although I never said I didn't believe an asset was something that put cash flow into your pocket, my business is an asset. I'm not doing any middle class thinking, I never said my only investment in the world was only my house. I bought my house to enjoy, just like I buy a high end watch. I understand the concept of supply and demand, yet still that hasn't happened and my watch continues to increase in value. Sure it's a chance, but there is a chance the market will crash and your rentals will not have a cash flow, happened to me with a couple of my units had to be sold at a loss because the economy crashed and a glut of viable renters moved away due to lack of jobs. Luxury cars, boats, etc I think you have to be a moron to think they would increase in value, they are also not bought as investments, although I do write off my cars expenses, leases, mileage, etc so it's a benefit to me.

Anyhow at the end of the day it's simply how we define the word "asset". To me having something of tangible value is an asset, whether it produces cash flow monthly or at some undetermined time in the future when I sell it. The right watch serves that purpose as well.
 
Of course a house is an asset, I can sell it tomorrow and take my money, or lose my money. An asset doesn't have to be something that generates cash, it can be a real or tangible asset which has a value. I didn't buy my house to provide me a cashflow, I bought it so my family and I could live in it and enjoy it. I own 20 apartment buildings in central NY which a partner manages and maintains, we bought them right and fixed them up cheaply. All the stuff you mention isn't free, and it's much more expensive if you farm it out. The rental market is still very tough, non occupancy, management fees, mechanical failures, etc. The profit margin is fairly slim in the rental market once you factor in everything. Certainly you can play the long game and know you have tenants paying your mortgages. That's how I play mine, 15 year mortgages paid weekly, not much profit to speak of from month to month but they are in good condition and being paid for not out of my pocket. By your definition they are not assets. The apartments were an investment, I have my own business which generates my cashflow from my 2 hands.

I agree with your statement "Your definition of an asset is something that has value (and might go up). My definition of an asset is something that puts money in my pocket (every month), no matter what directions the value goes, up, down, or sideways" We are just going back and forth on our opinions and financial strategies, although I never said I didn't believe an asset was something that put cash flow into your pocket, my business is an asset. I'm not doing any middle class thinking, I never said my only investment in the world was only my house. I bought my house to enjoy, just like I buy a high end watch. I understand the concept of supply and demand, yet still that hasn't happened and my watch continues to increase in value. Sure it's a chance, but there is a chance the market will crash and your rentals will not have a cash flow, happened to me with a couple of my units had to be sold at a loss because the economy crashed and a glut of viable renters moved away due to lack of jobs. Luxury cars, boats, etc I think you have to be a moron to think they would increase in value, they are also not bought as investments, although I do write off my cars expenses, leases, mileage, etc so it's a benefit to me.

Anyhow at the end of the day it's simply how we define the word "asset". To me having something of tangible value is an asset, whether it produces cash flow monthly or at some undetermined time in the future when I sell it. The right watch serves that purpose as well.

I suppose I have a different strategy, as well as definitions. My goal is to relax and retire. The more cashflowing assets acquired, the more time (which is the most important thing) I can spend doing the things I want.

Time for a good pint? :)
 
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I suppose I have a different strategy, as well as definitions. My goal is to relax and retire. The more cashflowing assets acquired, the more time (which is the most important thing) I can spend doing the things I want.

Time for a good pint? :)

Only if you are buying, you have more cash flow. :D:D:D
 
Aside from the fact that this thread is a thinly veiled opportunity for shallow people with money to brag about it, the idiots justifying buying a Rolex because it's an investment are hilarious. You bought a Rolex in 1979 for $1000 and now it's worth $8500 so it was a good investment? Hahahahahhah.

Go and talk to a financial adviser and ask them if there's any better way you could have invested that money over a 36 year period.
 
I dispute that last post as stereo typical.
I love my Rolex but only use it for special occasions and when I get my SS I will still use my Rolex for evenings out.
It's a special watch and it's over 50 years old. It was given to my dad by Winston Churchill as a thank you present in 1963 when my dad was a Wing Commander on the Air Sea Rescue launches in the RAF and Churchill paid a visit and my dad spent 5 days with him.
I have a great photo of my dad with Winston in my living room
 
Anyone going through Rolex withdrawal?

How is real estate not an asset?
Whether someone monetizes it directly or not is up to the owner.
Obviously if the owner is someone else, then it's not your asset to begin with.
Property taxes are similar to any other asset you might own which are so subject to taxes.
 
Aside from the fact that this thread is a thinly veiled opportunity for shallow people with money to brag about it, the idiots justifying buying a Rolex because it's an investment are hilarious. You bought a Rolex in 1979 for $1000 and now it's worth $8500 so it was a good investment? Hahahahahhah.

Go and talk to a financial adviser and ask them if there's any better way you could have invested that money over a 36 year period.

Sure there are much better investments out there, but how many consumerable items appreciate in value rather than depreciate? As far as buying something and using it, high end watches offer great value; at least they aren't losing any money.
 
I am the original poster of this thread.

It has been an interesting discussion.

However, I strongly disagree with owning Rolexes as an investment.

In 2002 I paid $3,200 for my SS Datejust after a 15% discount from an authorized dealer. I had to promise not to disclose the discount.

I was told I need to insure it for $5,500 a couple of years ago. Nice appreciation for just 10 years.

NOT!!!!!

That is the insurance value and NOT the resale value. I have been told that I would be lucky to find a wholesale buyer for less than half what I paid for the watch. Even the retail value is less than what I paid.

The insurance value and resale value of jewelry varies greatly.

When my mother-in-law died there was a fight between siblings over everything. Her 1.25 ct. platinum diamond ring went to my wife. The insurance value was $16,000. The brothers tried to force her to sell it. It was 2009 and they couldn't find a jeweler to give more than $1,800!

Jewelry of all kinds including watches are a horrible investment.

The only value that means something is what you can ACTUALLY sell it for. The rest is worthless paper money.

----------

I dispute that last post as stereo typical.
I love my Rolex but only use it for special occasions and when I get my SS I will still use my Rolex for evenings out.
It's a special watch and it's over 50 years old. It was given to my dad by Winston Churchill as a thank you present in 1963 when my dad was a Wing Commander on the Air Sea Rescue launches in the RAF and Churchill paid a visit and my dad spent 5 days with him.
I have a great photo of my dad with Winston in my living room

That is a great story.

That watch is full of sentimental value.

A gift from the man whom Time magazine rated the greatest person of the 20th century.

What a heritage!
 
I was hoping  was going to release a band rather than a full watch as I have a collection of watches that I love and want to keep wearing. I was hoping for a gadget band that I could wear on one wrist and keep my watch on the other. I think I may find myself wearing my standard watch on my left wrist and the  watch on my right wrist. If I wasn't worried about feeling like a bit of a prat I would be doing it already.
 
I've never been a regular watch wearer, as as such, never bothered to buy a Rolex.

I have plenty of other jewelry in the same price range, just not a watch. I do have a very dressy diamond dial Tag, but I almost never wear it.

I am enjoying the Apple Watch because it does something besides sit on my arm taking up space, I reckon.
 
I suppose I have a different strategy, as well as definitions. My goal is to relax and retire. The more cashflowing assets acquired, the more time (which is the most important thing) I can spend doing the things I want.

Time for a good pint? :)

Of course a house is an asset, I can sell it tomorrow and take my money, or lose my money. An asset doesn't have to be something that generates cash, it can be a real or tangible asset which has a value. I didn't buy my house to provide me a cashflow, I bought it so my family and I could live in it and enjoy it. I own 20 apartment buildings in central NY which a partner manages and maintains, we bought them right and fixed them up cheaply. All the stuff you mention isn't free, and it's much more expensive if you farm it out. The rental market is still very tough, non occupancy, management fees, mechanical failures, etc. The profit margin is fairly slim in the rental market once you factor in everything. Certainly you can play the long game and know you have tenants paying your mortgages. That's how I play mine, 15 year mortgages paid weekly, not much profit to speak of from month to month but they are in good condition and being paid for not out of my pocket. By your definition they are not assets. The apartments were an investment, I have my own business which generates my cashflow from my 2 hands.

I agree with your statement "Your definition of an asset is something that has value (and might go up). My definition of an asset is something that puts money in my pocket (every month), no matter what directions the value goes, up, down, or sideways" We are just going back and forth on our opinions and financial strategies, although I never said I didn't believe an asset was something that put cash flow into your pocket, my business is an asset. I'm not doing any middle class thinking, I never said my only investment in the world was only my house. I bought my house to enjoy, just like I buy a high end watch. I understand the concept of supply and demand, yet still that hasn't happened and my watch continues to increase in value. Sure it's a chance, but there is a chance the market will crash and your rentals will not have a cash flow, happened to me with a couple of my units had to be sold at a loss because the economy crashed and a glut of viable renters moved away due to lack of jobs. Luxury cars, boats, etc I think you have to be a moron to think they would increase in value, they are also not bought as investments, although I do write off my cars expenses, leases, mileage, etc so it's a benefit to me.

Anyhow at the end of the day it's simply how we define the word "asset". To me having something of tangible value is an asset, whether it produces cash flow monthly or at some undetermined time in the future when I sell it. The right watch serves that purpose as well.

Ok, actual investor here and I'm calling both of you clowns out.

Firstly, you don't get to choose what "asset" means to you. If you own any property. It is an asset, by definition. Done.

Secondly..." rental market is still tough". No. It is perfectly wonderful right now. Housing sales are going up but thanks to massive college debt we have an entire generation of renters! This is why guys like Sam Zell keep doubling down. If you are buying rental properties in a dying town... well that's on you cause there are very green pastures not too far away.

Now lets talk about how you guys are running your investments. I can't talk about anything outside of the US... but in terms of the guy in NY. If you own 20 properties you better have a portfolio loan from a private bank, not individual 15yr loans, that's amateur. Even if your assets are cash neutral you'd STILL be making a ton of money on the back end. I keep some cash neutral properties specifically as tax shelters (I usually estimate the deductions to be 60k per 0.5MM, actual return obviously based on your marginal tax rate). If you don't have your CPA working out ways to keep you just above the AMT you're doing it WRONG.

Also, there has been zero discussion of a 1031 exchange in your long term plans... which is basically how you scale residential real estate investing.

This discussion FEELS like amateurs or people with no experience arguing about how they THINK it works.
 
A $500 watch is more useful than a $30,000 watch.

That really tells you something.

I think for those of us that have 10k plus watches, it is not a matter of usefulness. Its the same thing for many other items, you can buy a Civic for 20k, why buy a 200k car? Still get you from A to B and might even offer better technology!
There are times in your life you need something useful and there are times you want to appreciate something finer in nature.
If you have the option and means to do both, why not enjoy benefits from both?
 
Rocking both my space grey Apple Watch Sport and Omega Seamaster Professional this morning. I like having them both on. I haven't tried a combination with some of my other watches with black rubber straps, though... That might make me think twice. We'll see.

Either way, screw what other people think. I'll wear what I please.

:)
 

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Ok, actual investor here and I'm calling both of you clowns out.

Firstly, you don't get to choose what "asset" means to you. If you own any property. It is an asset, by definition. Done.

Secondly..." rental market is still tough". No. It is perfectly wonderful right now. Housing sales are going up but thanks to massive college debt we have an entire generation of renters! This is why guys like Sam Zell keep doubling down. If you are buying rental properties in a dying town... well that's on you cause there are very green pastures not too far away.

Now lets talk about how you guys are running your investments. I can't talk about anything outside of the US... but in terms of the guy in NY. If you own 20 properties you better have a portfolio loan from a private bank, not individual 15yr loans, that's amateur. Even if your assets are cash neutral you'd STILL be making a ton of money on the back end. I keep some cash neutral properties specifically as tax shelters (I usually estimate the deductions to be 60k per 0.5MM, actual return obviously based on your marginal tax rate). If you don't have your CPA working out ways to keep you just above the AMT you're doing it WRONG.

Also, there has been zero discussion of a 1031 exchange in your long term plans... which is basically how you scale residential real estate investing.

This discussion FEELS like amateurs or people with no experience arguing about how they THINK it works.

Owning a property does not automatically make it an asset. If a house, or especially a boat, drains money from your pocket, would you like to own a few more? How about if you lose your job? Would you consider buying more? It will eventually bankrupt you. That's a liability, it is costing you money. They both can be assets if you use it to make money, like renting it out, or chartering the boat and have clients on board.

Based on your definition, your "assets" makes you poorer.

I am aware of the 1031 exchange tax benefits. That is why I only sell if I can find a bigger property. For most people here, they don't even know what that means, so I would rather skip the details they don't understand. But you are correct a good CPA is very important.
 
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I think for those of us that have 10k plus watches, it is not a matter of usefulness. Its the same thing for many other items, you can buy a Civic for 20k, why buy a 200k car? Still get you from A to B and might even offer better technology!
There are times in your life you need something useful and there are times you want to appreciate something finer in nature.
If you have the option and means to do both, why not enjoy benefits from both?

For me, no version of the Apple watch is particularly attractive or well crafted when compared to a proper mechanical timepiece.

Most of the time it's a blank rectangular black slate.

To borrow your analogy. You can buy a Civic for 20k...or you can buy an 18k gold gilded Civic for 200k. Neither of which should be confused with a proper luxury vehicle.

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Owning a property does not automatically make it an asset. If a house, or especially a boat, drains money from your pocket, would you like to own a few more? How about if you lose your job? Would you consider buying more? It will eventually bankrupt you. That's a liability, it is costing you money. They both can be assets if you use it to make money, like renting it out, or chartering the boat and have clients on board.

Based on your definition, your "assets" makes you poorer.

I am aware of the 1031 exchange tax benefits. That is why I only sell if I can find a bigger property. For most people here, they don't even know what that means, so I would rather skip the details they don't understand. But you are correct a good CPA is very important.

A boat/house is an asset, even if the cost of ownership is in the red. There is NO positive connotation to the word. You're argument would similarly mean that I can't call the plus sign in addition equation:

1+(-1) = 0

A "plus sign" because "addition" and "plus" in other contexts commonly refers to an increasingly positive sum.

Here is my issue. It isn't MY definition of asset... it is THE definition of asset.

To play your game though... I'll say this. You can borrow against your boat. You can borrow against your house. They are assets.
 
I dispute that last post as stereo typical.
I love my Rolex but only use it for special occasions and when I get my SS I will still use my Rolex for evenings out.
It's a special watch and it's over 50 years old. It was given to my dad by Winston Churchill as a thank you present in 1963 when my dad was a Wing Commander on the Air Sea Rescue launches in the RAF and Churchill paid a visit and my dad spent 5 days with him.
I have a great photo of my dad with Winston in my living room

That's really awesome. Could you post a picture? I'm a history buff and would love to see it.
 
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