iPad Pro Anyone know if mini-LED displays on new iPad Pros could lead to PWM-related headache issues?

[Jodiuh]

I bought a discounted 12.9" 2020 and sold my 2018. The 2020 caused immediately eye strain. Maybe related to it’s lower contrast ratio. I use them usually at 50% brightness. After 2 weeks I had to return the 2020 and bought the Mini LED 2021. No eye strain any more.

*internet hug*

Thats interesting because the 2020 12.9 Pro’s PWM doesn’t kick in until below 15%. (iirc) See notebookcheck for more info.

The contrast ratio might just be biggest disappointment if it weren’t for the old A12.

Anyway, I am fine with it. watch 3, X, & up trigger eye pa9n in less than a minute. I do have one of the blue light blocking screens from invisibleshield and it’s a big help vs my old 12.9 with without any screen protection.

Thanks for the heads up! I’ll wait until notebook check posts their review, but I’m hopeful!

 

[jimmy_uk]

After using a 2021 12.9" for a few hours I did feel some minor eye discomfort. I felt I had to double read text, like my eyes were skating/crossing when reading. I only got to use it for a while but my eyes felt tired afterwards and took a few hours to feel normal. Will have to assume it's the same dithering that's now present on all Apple products?

I was instore the other day and had a quick look at the ipad Air and felt absolutely fine but couldn't unsee the choppy scrolling in Safari. The 120hz on the Pro's is buttery smooth, but again I did feel some eye weirdness when directly comparing with the 2021 11". *sigh* 🤷‍♂️

Either ways I decided the large ipad wasn't for me anyway and after WWDC I'm waiting on a restock of 2018 11" refurbs from Apple or the new Mini. Will also consider the ipad Air if Amazon have some deals on Prime day.

 

[Freida]

every screen has PWM. Its about the frequency though

No, mini-LED doesn't use PWM.

 

[Jodiuh]

You are wrong.

After using a 2021 12.9" for a few hours I did feel some minor eye discomfort. I felt I had to double read text, like my eyes were skating/crossing when reading. I only got to use it for a while but my eyes felt tired afterwards and took a few hours to feel normal. Will have to assume it's the same dithering that's now present on all Apple products?

I was instore the other day and had a quick look at the ipad Air and felt absolutely fine but couldn't unsee the choppy scrolling in Safari. The 120hz on the Pro's is buttery smooth, but again I did feel some eye weirdness when directly comparing with the 2021 11". *sigh* 🤷‍♂️

Either ways I decided the large ipad wasn't for me anyway and after WWDC I'm waiting on a restock of 2018 11" refurbs from Apple or the new Mini. Will also consider the ipad Air if Amazon have some deals on Prime day.

Thanks, I’m so glad I snagged the last “somewhat” normal iPad Pro 12.9. The 2nd gen bugged me with it’s massive Bezels.…had to start wearing one of those wrist braces! Notebookcheck found pwm flicker below 15% IIRC. I never use it in the dark because of the sad sad contrast ratio. Still, I’d rather blacks look gray than destroy my eyes. Might be worth looking into, but the invisible shield glass comes with a blue light filter as an option…kinda makes sun or lights glare quite a bit. But again, I value my eyes 1st.

The 4th gen’s still big, but if it’s not a 12.9, it’s just another toy. I may be wrong, but does the 11 still prevent zooming the display? Can it split screen full apps yet? I felt 50% less production on the 11.

It’s a bummer that some of us missed out on the M1, but if the screen ends up flickering over @ notebook Check…well, another bummer.

 

[Martius]

Here is an article about PWM on MiniLED iPad Pro. It seems that it is worse than previous iPad Pro 2020. iPad Pro 2018 had no PWM.

On the other hand, it looks like the iPad Pro 11" 2021 has no PWM (like iPad Pro 2018, iPad Pro 11 2020 had PWM = all according to notebookcheck). Read the comments in the article too...

2021 Apple 12.9-inch M1 iPad Pro with mini LED display shows poor display characteristics including reduced PWM and response times

We tested the PWM and display response times in our 2021 12.9-inch iPad Pro with M1 and found that there are some downsides to Apple's transition to mini LED tech this year. The 2021 12.9-inch iPad Pro not only shows lower PWM compared to the 2020 model but also has noticeably higher response...

www.notebookcheck.net

 

[Jodiuh]

Here is an article about PWM on MiniLED iPad Pro. It seems that it is worse than previous iPad Pro 2020. iPad Pro 2018 had no PWM.

On the other hand, it looks like the iPad Pro 11" 2021 has no PWM (like iPad Pro 2018, iPad Pro 11 2020 had PWM = all according to notebookcheck). Read the comments in the article too...

2021 Apple 12.9-inch M1 iPad Pro with mini LED display shows poor display characteristics including reduced PWM and response times

We tested the PWM and display response times in our 2021 12.9-inch iPad Pro with M1 and found that there are some downsides to Apple's transition to mini LED tech this year. The 2021 12.9-inch iPad Pro not only shows lower PWM compared to the 2020 model but also has noticeably higher response...

www.notebookcheck.net

Saw that yesterday…what a disappointment for those of us that stared @ 85hz CRT’s for so long. Happy for those that will go with the 11 tho! Iirc, the 2020 11 had PWM? The 2020 12.9 uses PWM below 14% (I think), but @ a very high frequency. Still, I just keep the brightness above 14 to eliminate any risk.

So glad I grabbed the 2020 12…had a nasty feeling the mini led would come with some serious caveats.

I don’t use it for gaming at all, but I could see how some might not want a screen that takes twice as long to respond.

I don’t understand why Apple can’t just step the F up. LG certified their TV’s with TUF a year ago!

Edit: TUV, not TUF! Thinking of ASUS.

 

[uiterlix]

I’m doing fine with the new 12.9 pro. The oled iPhones are giving me headaches though.

 

[Jodiuh]

I’m doing fine with the new 12.9 pro. The oled iPhones are giving me headaches though.

I really do have to wonder what the exact hz that begins to cause eye pain. I know the iPhones are typically 240 and that’s a far cry from what the new screens turning on and off @.

NC does actually say that they don’t think it will affect most users sensitive to PWM the freq’s so high.

Local Best Buy does have a display, might have to go and have a staring contest. If I do win, I’ll probably take her home with me today because after attempting to watch Loki on the 2020 12.9 was a very very sad moment. Contrast was so bad, that I couldn’t make out what was going on, haha.

Anyway, thanks for the heads up!

 

[slplss]

I’m doing fine with the new 12.9 pro. The oled iPhones are giving me headaches though.

That's probably because iPhone OLED flickers 100x slower than XDR. Still disappointing to learn it has PWM but if there wasn't for NB check I'd have never known. No problems to my eyes and brains at all.

 

[Jodiuh]

That's probably because iPhone OLED flickers 100x slower than XDR. Still disappointing to learn it has PWM but if there wasn't for NB check I'd have never known. No problems to my eyes and brains at all.

Brains…haha! Are any of you guys using the Cellular model? Reason I’m asking‘s cause the ETA’s over a month for ATT 1TB.

 

[rui no onna]

At least for me, I had issues with the Mini-LED display the first time I used but it seems to have gone away.

The iPhone 12 mini, I still couldn't use for more than 30 minutes.

 

[Maven1975]

They should go back to non-pwm controlled screens for everything. If the contrast ratio takes a hit so be it, it’s better to save peoples’ eyes than have a more beautiful looking screen. I sold my 11” pro 2020 model because of the headaches it caused me and iphone 12 does the same thing so I have to sell that and return to my trusty 7 plus. My eyes thank me. The nice thing also is there is no need to upgrade anyway because the old things I have still work great. Maybe I’ll try the air 4 though since it is non-pwm.

Ha!

I suffer from PWM sensitivity as well after having LASIK surgery on my eyes. I’m now in my mid 40’s and had the surgery 10 years ago.

I’m being squezed out of all current devices like many others. I still use my 2018 IPP and am now stuck with an XR (Although I hear the IP 11 might be okay)

This needs to be seriously evaluated by the health community. I bet there are a LARGE amount of people that don't know any better on medication because their devices are messing with their body's and minds.

The older community of users would be able to pin point it better as they were using devices without such effects for years.

While I agree people should get their eyes checked every year, this does not solve the problem.

Things like mania, disorientation, headaches and many others come from the effects of PWM. An eye doctor can give a clean bill of health, but these issues are out of the scope of their field.

Honestly, its a WAY bigger problem than people think.

This is my two cents anyways.

Spread the word.

 

[Martius]

The problem with PWM is that there must be thousands of people suffering from eyestrain / headaches and not knowing why. I know that MacRumors members are more interested in Apple devices, so when there is something like bendgate, we (Apple enthusiast) are more likely to talk about that problem and are more likely to see it as a problem.

But! There are a lot of MacRumors members that are suffering from PWM, and it's not because they talk about it or know about it, but because there is certain number of people that are PWM sensitive. And it seems that the number is not low, according to how many people from MacRumors members are having problems with PWM.

So it really is much bigger problem than we actually think it is.

 

[Jodiuh]

There’s a reddit thread about the issue here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/iPadPro/comments/nt7pay

I’m being squezed out of all current devices like many others. I still use my 2018 IPP and am now stuck with an XR (Although I hear the IP 11 might be okay)…

Good news my friend! I can’t handle the Apple Watch Series 3, but am ok w/ the Series 5.

Had to return the iPhone X, but am ok w/ the XR & the 11. As far as I can tell, it’s the same screen! I do enjoy using the wide angle lens tho…so you might have use for that. If anything, might be a good idea to buy an 11 vanilla (non OLED) before it’s too late.

I’m ok w/ the 12.9“ 2020 IPP. Notebookcheck says it’s flicker free above 14% brightness, but I never go below that anyway. I had no issues w/ the 12.9” 2018 IPP. So you do have a few upgrade paths…for now.

The problem with PWM is that there must be thousands of people suffering from eyestrain / headaches and not knowing why.

I particularly enjoy asking optometrists and ophthalmologists about this because it’s so niche @ the moment that they’re clueless…some of them thought I was making it up, haha! At least I know how to tell a good eye guy from a bad eye guy! Last visit the lady Doc hadn’t heard of the issue, but after describing it, she not only believed me, but explained what it can do to the lens in your eye. If I hadn’t been freaked out before, I am now!

Just feel awful for employees being issued PWM LCD monitors for their desk. :/

At least it’s an easy top hit to steer those who don’t know into the right direction.

 

[Kierkegaarden]

From the image @Serban55 posted taken iPhonedo’s YouTube review, the 2021 iPad Pro does appear to have some flickering albeit at a much higher frequency compared to OLED iPhones.

Interesting that I’ve never thought about this before. The stripes on the right screen is similar to what I experience on a regular basis — using an iPad or MacBook — I see these stripes faintly as I look at the screen, and the image even stays in my head if I close my eyes — is this basically the flickering that is causing that? Is there a setting I can change to remedy this?

 

[TDDM]

Anyone have any experience with the 11" 2021 Pro? I asked the notebookcheck staff if there was any flickering at all on the 11", and got this reply:

"Short answer: No, no flickering!"

The 12.9" Pro hurt my eyes, so I'm hoping the 11" would be usable.

 

[Martius]

Anyone have any experience with the 11" 2021 Pro? I asked the notebookcheck staff if there was any flickering at all on the 11", and got this reply:

"Short answer: No, no flickering!"

The 12.9" Pro hurt my eyes, so I'm hoping the 11" would be usable.

Could you share your PWM experience with the 11" 2021, if you get one, please?

 

[TDDM]

Could you share your PWM experience with the 11" 2021, if you get one, please?

Yeah, definitely. Not sure when I'll be able to try one out, but I'll post my experience here.

 

[M12020_16gb_500gb]

Would the M1 mac mini be a solution for my eye strain when I use a macbook M1, since there would be no pwm? I have a M1 ipad pro ordered, and I will see if I can tolerate it better than the new macbook air which made my eyes feel like there was sand in it after an hour.

 

[TDDM]

Would the M1 mac mini be a solution for my eye strain when I use a macbook M1, since there would be no pwm? I have a M1 ipad pro ordered, and I will see if I can tolerate it better than the new macbook air which made my eyes feel like there was sand in it after an hour.

It’s always worth a shot to try different devices out IMO since everyone is a little different in terms of sensitivity. In my experience, the Mac mini’s were no different from the MacBooks, both caused the same eye strain.

It seems that the main issue is with MacOS itself, not the hardware. Though the hardware might also be contributing as well, we really don’t know for sure at this point.

 

[M12020_16gb_500gb]

It’s always worth a shot to try different devices out IMO since everyone is a little different in terms of sensitivity. In my experience, the Mac mini’s were no different from the MacBooks, both caused the same eye strain.

It seems that the main issue is with MacOS itself, not the hardware. Though the hardware might also be contributing as well, we really don’t know for sure at this point.

Thank you for your explanation!
Yes I think I will try it since it is really my last chance to be able to use Mac products after my 2015 MBA dies, which wont be long since the performance gap between it and the new M1 is ... big .. to say the least.
It is really a mind boggling issue.. I am able to tolerate my 2015 macbook air with mojave on an external screen, so I thought I could also tolerate the new one with an external display but it is giving me the same issues... which makes me think something may have changed in the way Mojave and the newer version of Mac OS (Bir sur) handles text or external displays. This make me think the issue will be there with the mac mini, but maybe (I hope) the fact that I could not stand even on the external display may be because my eyes were so messed up by trying my best for 3 days to use the new machine with it's built in screen, ending up with severe dry eyes.

I will keep you lal updated if I end up buying a Mac mini, especially with the promo with the airpods, it's tempting.

 

[Kierkegaarden]

Thank you for your explanation!
Yes I think I will try it since it is really my last chance to be able to use Mac products after my 2015 MBA dies, which wont be long since the performance gap between it and the new M1 is ... big .. to say the least.
It is really a mind boggling issue.. I am able to tolerate my 2015 macbook air with mojave on an external screen, so I thought I could also tolerate the new one with an external display but it is giving me the same issues... which makes me think something may have changed in the way Mojave and the newer version of Mac OS (Bir sur) handles text or external displays. This make me think the issue will be there with the mac mini, but maybe (I hope) the fact that I could not stand even on the external display may be because my eyes were so messed up by trying my best for 3 days to use the new machine with it's built in screen, ending up with severe dry eyes.

I will keep you lal updated if I end up buying a Mac mini, especially with the promo with the airpods, it's tempting.

I think our eyes can recover from strain faster than we think. You were able to pinpoint the problem early on, which is good.

Have you tried turning brightness to max and using an app to reduce white point? I’m experimenting with this myself. I’ve noticed visual artifacts after viewing a screen (horizontal black lines) that linger for a bit afterwards. Not sure if this is the same as what you’re describing.

 

[iPadified]

every screen has PWM. Its about the frequency though

My thoughts exactly. LED do not behave well in lower voltage so dimming is done using PWM off cycle length. Why are frequencies so low? An LED can turn on and off in a few microseconds so frequencies >1kHz should be OK.

 

[Artsketch]

Here is the notebookcheck review: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...et-review-A-Mini-LED-trump-card.548142.0.html Although I can see sometimes PWM the new display is very comfortable at 40-50% brightness.

 

[Momof9]

At least for me, I had issues with the Mini-LED display the first time I used but it seems to have gone away.

The iPhone 12 mini, I still couldn't use for more than 30 minutes.

What have you specifically done to set up your iPad so that you can use it without eyestrain and headaches? I have not had a lot of time to do any serious work on my iPad yet. SO I have a bit of downtime this week.... I am trying to sit closer to my iPad, will probable work a bit in procreate in a bit. But I am noticing the new 12.9" is hurting my eyes. I have my 2018 at the same distance and I don't notice the eyestrain. Not as much when further away - but I can't draw when it's that far away....

I have True Tone off and set at 100% brightness - anything else I should try?