anyone sober?

[jelloshotsrule]

I don't want to offend anyone:

I don't understand people who purposely avoid drinking all their life. I know it's not the natural thing to do. This person has had to fight a lot of temptation, and spend a lot of friday and saturday nights at home. There is nothing wrong with going out and having a drink, just keep everything in moderation. You control what you do, your not going to get hammered by having a sip of alcohol. Relax, have some fun, enjoy life. Just don't over do it, that's all.

I think that if you avoid alcohol at all costs, your going to avoid places in which alcohol is available, which is usually places where you can meet people. So, you end up staying home, typing away on your mac, because all your freinds are out having a good time.

I had a mormon freind in Highschool, now we are in college. He would get mad at me, and anyone else in my class if I brought coffee to class one day. He wouldn't even want to get near it, and would make weird remarks. He held a grudge against anyone who did these types of things, drinking, coffee, even pop was apparently a bad thing. So, he spent his life playing Xbox, always looking for an alternative activity. Not many people joined him...

you don't offend me at all, but your theories are way off.

i don't feel pressured to drink at a bar. i get a coke. i don't feel like i have to sit home on weekends, because i have mostly friends who don't drink, or at least don't go out and get hammered. you also assume that everyone would rather go "out" and "party" than hang out with friends playing poker or whatever... you say your friend spent his life playing xbox and looking for alternative activities.... how do you know that's not just what he preferred to do? i don't feel like i'm seeking out "an alternative to getting drunk". just the opposite, if i went out drinking i'd be seeking out an escape from reality, an alternative from what i want to be doing...

 

[mactastic]

The difference was prohibition made something wide-spread accepted illegal. Drugs are not accepted wide-spread. If they are made legal, it's like the government condoning it. Fortunately (imho, anyway) the government still cares about morality (sans-BJs) and won't condone inappropriate things.

If it's acceptance was so widespread, why were there enough people against alcohol to get a constitutional amendment passed against it? There had to be at least a sizable group opposed to alcohol in order to get their way.

Also you're treading dangerously close to having your thread tossed into the political forum now. I won't comment on the BS about government morality until such time...

I agree that drug-related crime is in part a product of drug-related laws, but that doesn't mean the people committing the crimes aren't at fault.

How many crimes are committed under the influence of alcohol -- a completely legal drug? So you can't tell me that it's the illegality of the drugs that are causing people to commit crimes. People commit crimes over perfectly legal things all the time too.

Remember, the booze or the drugs are only as bad as the people using them. Should we punish all gun owners because a few of them commit crimes? Then why punish all drug users because a few of them are complete jackasses?

 

[jelloshotsrule]

i'm someone who doesn't use drugs and generally doesn't want to be around them, etc. however, i would like to see them legalized. at the very least, pot. the harder drugs are a bit trickier, but treating their use as a crime rather than an illness does not help the problem

as for why i don't drink. etc.. i don't feel the need. i live a fun and happy life. have good friends and family and girlfriend to share it all with. it just doesn't appeal to me. my dad smokes, and is quite likely an "alcoholic"... a very quiet, shy one. but still drinks a lot. my oldest brother now smokes and drinks after growing up very much opposed to my dad doing it... i've got several alcoholic (and worse) uncles, etc.

so i know very well the bad it can lead to, and don't feel the need enough to overcome what i know can happen

but yeah, in general i don't see a need or have the desire

 

[Blue Velvet]

Drugs are not accepted wide-spread. If they are made legal, it's like the government condoning it. Fortunately (imho, anyway) the government still cares about morality (sans-BJs) and won't condone inappropriate things.

In fact, drugs are pretty pervasive in the UK. Many drugs were legal here and elsewhere until the early part of last century.

And taking a substance to alter your state of mind has nothing to do with morality at all...

After all, what's the difference between having that cup of strong coffee and chewing on some coca leaves?

 

[Lacero]

Speaking on moral terms, we should also ban the newspaper gossip columns, ban eye glasses, cast off technological wonders and live like the Amish.

 

[devilot]

Speaking on moral terms, we should also ban the newspaper gossip columns, ban eye glasses, cast off technological wonders and live like the Amish.

The Amish use cell phones. They're allowed to ride in motorized vehicles so long as they do not drive/own the vehicle. They are allowed to enjoy AC (air conditioning) so long as they did not pay for it/ install it in their own homes (for example, on hot days, the kids might get rides to hang out inside of WalMart).

 

[iJon]

In fact, drugs are pretty pervasive in the UK. Many drugs were legal here and elsewhere until the early part of last century.

And taking a substance to alter your state of mind has nothing to do with morality at all...

After all, what's the difference between having that cup of strong coffee and chewing on some coca leaves?

No kidding. Most people base their ethics and morals off society. Nothing wrong with it, simply natural. It's also the fact as why many people don't do drugs and the only thing they know about them is that they are "bad."

jon

 

[mactastic]

... the only thing they know about them is that they are "bad."

Perhaps now would be a good time to remind people that "Drugs are bad, mmmmmkay."

 

[Blue Velvet]

"Here is my final point. About drugs, about alcohol, about pornography and smoking and everything else. What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I f*ck, what I take into my body -- as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?"

-- Bill Hicks

 

[jelloshotsrule]

"...as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?"

ahh, there's the rub.

 

[efoto]

"...as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?"

ahh, there's the rub.

I actually like that quote quite a bit. There should be no care of anyone's about what I do/smoke/ingest/f***/etc unless I am harming someone else. If it is all in good fun for me and effects no one else, why should anyone else care?

That sounds fine and well but it seems that our meddling loved ones often disobey this rule of thumb. If I started taking lines of coke or there were needles around my apartment I can bet my mother would be concerned and take up a care about it, even though I may not be harming anyone else but myself. That love thing is quite peculiar in that way, going above and beyond what logic may present. In that case I would have to thank my mother, but the quote provided by Blue Velvet still holds true I believe, allowing love to mess with the rules just a little bit....

 

[Brize]

"Here is my final point. About drugs, about alcohol, about pornography and smoking and everything else. What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I f*ck, what I take into my body -- as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?"

-- Bill Hicks

It's difficult not to agree with this principle - especially given the specificity of the final clause - but it's disappointing that so few people choose to apply the same.

The violence and misery that characterise the international drug trade clearly precludes right-minded individuals from taking drugs of unknown origin, yet this same trade is sustained by demand from western consumers who are either oblivious to, or choose to ignore, the human cost of their drug use.

The prevailing notion that recreational drug use is compatible with a liberal worldview is a dangerous fallacy.

 

[dops7107]

It's difficult not to agree with this principle - especially given the specificity of the final clause - but it's disappointing that so few people choose to apply the same.

The violence and misery that characterise the international drug trade clearly precludes right-minded individuals from taking drugs of unknown origin, yet this same trade is sustained by demand from western consumers who are either oblivious to, or choose to ignore, the human cost of their drug use.

The prevailing notion that recreational drug use is compatible with a liberal worldview is a dangerous fallacy.

Well said: the very flaw in the principle is that practically everything you do has some negative effect on someone else. It can be minimised to an almost infinitesimal degree (no one worries too much about the impact on the world of growing your own fruit and veg), but the illegal drug trade is a source of misery for others that is far detached from the end-user.

 

[efoto]

Well said: the very flaw in the principle is that practically everything you do has some negative effect on someone else. It can be minimised to an almost infinitesimal degree (no one worries too much about the impact on the world of growing your own fruit and veg), but the illegal drug trade is a source of misery for others that is far detached from the end-user.

If I can grow my on fruit and vegetables, can I grow my own pot? Would you allow that without saying it would be supporting the slaughter of innocents in other countries?

Perhaps that pushed it further, perhaps not, but either way someone has to grow it. You probably saw the movie Blow, if you didn't you should, but you have to realize not all drugs come across borders. I know a couple people personally that grow the stuff themselves and distribute it locally. Michigan also has one of the highest quantities of meth labs in the US (all those militia men get bored I guess ). FBI and ATF are always all over the place around here if you know where to look (I have family in the biz).

Point being, everything effects someone else on a certain level, drugs are just the topic of discussion. Is a little personal drug use really going to cause that much pain to others? Surely there are worse thing than some low-level drug abuse....like mobs and money laundering, sweat shops and "equal oppurtunity" If only people could be so dedicated to actually helping people as you (and others) seem to be talking about drugs....

 

[Brize]

Point being, everything effects someone else on a certain level, drugs are just the topic of discussion. Is a little personal drug use really going to cause that much pain to others? Surely there are worse thing than some low-level drug abuse...

I think it's reasonable to make a distinction between imported heroin and locally-grown weed, for example - I made reference to the origin of drugs in my earlier post. However, any notion that local drug markets exist in a vacuum would be patently false.

It's true to say that all of our actions affect other people, if only on an infinitesimal level. The problem with the drug trade is that although the link is indirect, it's markedly tangible in most cases.

It goes without saying that there are plenty of things worse than low-level drug use, but the same can be said of nearly any illegal or unethical activity. This doesn't somehow mitigate the harm that your actions cause to other people.

By the way, I'm not sure that a Hollywood film made by a cocaine user is the best place to learn about the geopolitics of drugs.

 

[efoto]

I think it's reasonable to make a distinction between imported heroin and locally-grown weed, for example - I made reference to the origin of drugs in my earlier post. However, any notion that local drug markets exist in a vacuum would be patently false.

It's true to say that all of our actions affect other people, if only on an infinitesimal level. The problem with the drug trade is that although the link is indirect, it's markedly tangible in most cases.

It goes without saying that there are plenty of things worse than low-level drug use, but the same can be said of nearly any illegal or unethical activity. This doesn't somehow mitigate the harm that your actions cause to other people.

By the way, I'm not sure that a Hollywood film made by a cocaine user is the best place to learn about the geopolitics of drugs.

I wasn't trying to state that it was a perfect vacuum, but I know the friends of mine (not sure on the meth) sell at their local uni's and they sell small-time so I'm pretty confident they are giving it to the end user and not other dealers. Also, I wasn't trying to suggest you watch Blow as a learning tool, I simply cited that as an example of over-the-border drug trafficking (as it was more or less accurate for the timeframe they gave in CA) and a good movie which was the real reason I suggested you watch it. Afterall it is Johnny Depp, so what more do you need besides him and coke?

 

[w_parietti22]

I'm right behind you...25 years and counting.

14 and counting.

 

[dops7107]

If I can grow my on fruit and vegetables, can I grow my own pot? Would you allow that without saying it would be supporting the slaughter of innocents in other countries?

Of course you can, that's perfectly benign and I would have no problem with people doing that. In fact, I would even promote it: you know what you're getting, you're not giving money to dealers (even small time ones) and you might even be doing the environment a turn. Assuming you're growing it outdoors; I frown upon massive indoor pot factories powered with lights stolen from glasshouses (yep, plant scientists seem to fuel the supply for these!).

Perhaps that pushed it further, perhaps not, but either way someone has to grow it. You probably saw the movie Blow, if you didn't you should, but you have to realize not all drugs come across borders.

I have not seen that film and I confess I know little about the intricacies of drug supply and trafficking. But pot, even meth/e, is small fry. I'm talking about the stuff that is generally grown in warmer climes in big poppy fields.

Is a little personal drug use really going to cause that much pain to others? Surely there are worse thing than some low-level drug abuse....like mobs and money laundering, sweat shops and "equal oppurtunity" If only people could be so dedicated to actually helping people as you (and others) seem to be talking about drugs....

This is a little philosophical. In the grand scheme, a little personal drug use will have negligible effect. You might argue (falsely, IMO) that drug use even provides a livelihood for some people! But that argument is as false as saying that dropping litter provides a job for litter-pickers. It is flawed because of the assumption that all employment is useful and good.

I used to live with someone who would regularly (weekends) take cocaine with her friends. She was perfectly aimiable about it and it never bothered me. But this kind of casual "just for fun" drug use happens everywhere, and it is a major driving force for the supply of cocaine into the country - I bet it isn't home-grown. Yet no-one considers the costs of this use. I believe it depends on your outlook. Most things do not reflect their true cost: cheap clothes made in sweatshops, as you suggest, is just one example. The same is true with drugs - it's an ethical issue which has nothing to do with one's rights to do whatever one likes to the body.

 

[hookahco]

i drink and smoke and ive tried recreational drugs, but im glad i tried that and got tired of it at a young age.. even though i love my marlboro lights and cognac if you can live your life without tasting their sweet sweet sweet nectar... more power to you

 

[Blue Velvet]

...it's an ethical issue which has nothing to do with one's rights to do whatever one likes to the body.

Dangerously close to holier-than-thou moralising there... many people use the same words when discussing abortion.

Your ethics are not my ethics, nor are yours somehow superior. The phrase 'right-minded' used earlier by Brize also smacks of judgemental tut-tutting.

I have more respect for those who say they don't use drugs because they say they want to healthy, sharp and focused.

 

[scem0]

I don't use drugs because I want to stay healthy, sharp and focused.

Just kidding , sort of.

I don't use drugs or drink alcohol for a couple of reasons other than the one I mentioned earlier in this thread (lack of moderation). The main reason is that it is too ****ing expensive! My friends go out and spend $20 a piece buying alcohol and buy a pack of cigarettes on the way home, and then complain at the end of the week at how they have no more money. Yet they magically have money to repeat this cycle again the next week, and none of them work enough to pay for that much alcohol every week - we are all full time students. I think their parents give them a generous weekly allowance or something. My parents gave me enough to have 10 bucks a day for food/laundry/clothes/etc. for the semester and they are letting me handle my own finances.

Anyways. Money is a huge issue for me. I have no idea how much drugs cost, but a lot of people I know smoke weed, and that's probably pretty expensive too.

Also, it's bad for you. Once again, moderation is key, but no alcohol is better than any other amount of alcohol on a health level. As for the 'one glass of wine a day is good for the heart' thing, 15 minutes of exercise is better for the heart. I prefer the latter.

Also, I think I'd have less fun. When I get home from a night of dancing, I love how I can recall each moment with clarity. I can still recall how the hair on the man's chest felt pressed against my back from last Sunday as I danced. If I had been drinking I would probably only remember that I went to a club on Sunday and danced with a guy. When something exciting happens at a club, like a guy I'm attracted to starts to dance with me, my emotions are perfectly clear and it makes such an event much more enjoyable.

People who don't drink have fun too! That is a point I have to make. I go dancing at least 3 times a week, I don't drink even if someone buys me a drink. I dance my heart out and I leave the club with a smile on my face almost every night. Meanwhile, my friends that drink leave clubs all pouty because they spent all their money on drinks and nobody would buy them anything and so on and so on and so on. A fun night is what you make of it, it doesn't have to involve alcohol. My suite mate is an angry drunk, and a total light weight. He is drunk after 3 beers. He gets really irritated and angry every time he drinks, he slams doors, he yells at people, etc. and doesn't remember a thing the next morning. Yet every weekend he wants to get drunk. I just don't understand that. He's a really cool guy, sober. I wish he'd just stay that way.

If you don't believe that us non-drinkers have fun too, check out my blog which is in my signature. I chronicle stories of adventures I have while I'm out and about the town, usually stories from clubs. A few are pretty graphic, but the important thing is I enjoy the hell out of myself, I don't drink, and I can remember each story like it happened 5 minutes ago.

_Emerson

 

[WinterMute]

Been teetotal since I was 17, yup, before I was legally entitled to drink.

I've mentioned this before here, I have an allergy to alcohol (well, we all do, it being a metabolic poison and all..... Being drunk is being poisoned). I become clinically psychotic when drunk and try to do all kinds of unspeakable things to friends, random passers-by and policemen.

The hardest thing I ever did was go to University stone cold sober... Still, it was the early 1980's and safe sex was a padded headboard in those days

Never really got into drugs either, I simply don't like myself under the influence, plus they mess up your timing in combat...

(I'm a martial artist type)

 

[scem0]

Never really got into drugs either, I simply don't like myself under the influence, plus they mess up your timing in combat...

(I'm a martial artist type)

I was about to add the same kind of thing to my post immediately above yours, and that seriously freaks me out . I thought no one could relate to such a feeling.

I've been in and out of martial arts classes my whole life, and an acrobat my whole life. The thought of not being able to do a backflip, or just the thought of being off balance scares the acrobat and the martial artist in me to death.

So, I know exactly what you mean.

_Emerson

 

[Brize]

I wasn't trying to suggest you watch Blow as a learning tool, I simply cited that as an example of over-the-border drug trafficking (as it was more or less accurate for the timeframe they gave in CA) and a good movie which was the real reason I suggested you watch it. Afterall it is Johnny Depp, so what more do you need besides him and coke?

Apologies for the flippant remark, efoto: ironically, I was anything but sober when I posted last night!

 

[efoto]

Apologies for the flippant remark, efoto: ironically, I was anything but sober when I posted last night!

No worries, there was no offense or anything. Posting drunk, ahh the memories

This is a little philosophical. In the grand scheme, a little personal drug use will have negligible effect. You might argue (falsely, IMO) that drug use even provides a livelihood for some people! But that argument is as false as saying that dropping litter provides a job for litter-pickers. It is flawed because of the assumption that all employment is useful and good.

I used to live with someone who would regularly (weekends) take cocaine with her friends. She was perfectly aimiable about it and it never bothered me. But this kind of casual "just for fun" drug use happens everywhere, and it is a major driving force for the supply of cocaine into the country - I bet it isn't home-grown. Yet no-one considers the costs of this use. I believe it depends on your outlook. Most things do not reflect their true cost: cheap clothes made in sweatshops, as you suggest, is just one example. The same is true with drugs - it's an ethical issue which has nothing to do with one's rights to do whatever one likes to the body.

I was not arguing that drugs support the livelihood of hardworking people, nor am I condoning the jobs of those whose final goal is to do ill to others. Many countries have an over populated employment pool due to unnecessary jobs created by slackers and people who don't care. If no one littered, we wouldn't need our prisoners to clean the highways....oh, well I guess that one doesn't count. In reality there are a lot of jobs I think we could do away with, so although your point is a little high-and-mighty, I still see the purpose of it.

The ethical issue is something completely different though, something that Blue Velvet touched on a bit. Ethics are personally defined, therefore what you believe to be ethical I might consider unethical. My ethics may appall you as yours may me.

Although the argument that using drugs is supporting a less-than-ideal network of jobs and individuals, I think there are plenty of other issues we should all be concerned with that effect us and others far more than drug use.