Apollo Now Offers Option to Decline Refund Ahead of June 30 Shutdown

[Abazigal]

Reddit is being kept afloat by investor funding, yes. Do you have something you can point to that shows that's quickly drying up?

Everything Reddit is doing so far screams of desperation. The rush to IPO, the sudden renewed emphasis on profitability, and the cutting off of third party dev support to try and shore up their engagement numbers suggests they are trying to clean up their accounts prior to going public.

Which is mind boggling considering the money he made, selling a front end interface to a platform that reddit built, using content that users provide. He's made millions, and now throwing a pity party because the gravy train has come to an end. Hey, good for him, I'm glad he made money, but reddit has to do what's right for them, not for 3rd party developers, and that's that.

I don't know how many times this has to be repeated.

I am not against Reddit trying to make a profit. What I don't understand is why, of all the numerous ways this matter could have been handled, the CEO chose to go about it in a manner that would result in the most backlash and negative publicity. He initially promised that Reddit would continue to support third party apps, only to do an about-face and give them less than a month to respond (why not just state their intentions right from the get go, then give developers a longer window to react and wind down their subscriber base?). He doesn't even have the guts to come out and say that the company doesn't want to support third party apps, instead opting to go about it in a roundabout manner by raising API pricing beyond what was reasonable or feasible. He would try to smear Christian's name by accusing him of something he never did or said (what is he even trying to accomplish here?). And he has had Reddit admin restore previously deleted posts, mine included, so yeah, now it's personal.

I agree with you 100% that Reddit ought to do what's right for them, which is why this entire saga baffles me all the more. Like which of the aforementioned actions screams 4D chess to you? Which goes back to my initial point about Reddit leadership possibly acting out of desperation and bungling what could have been a far less messy and controversial transition to their own stock app.

 

[bgillander]

What goal posts did I move? You asked a question, presumably to stump me, and I educated you about something wildly basic that you should already know.

Well for one thing, not showing a profit is not the same as “making nothing”. Amazon brought in tons of cash, they just ploughed it all back into technology investment. It paid off in the long run, but I recall it frustrating their investors in the early days. If Reddit is doing the same, good for them, but that means your portrayal of them as making nothing is no better than what you claim the Apollo developer is doing, a sympathy ploy for someone that doesn’t need it. Otherwise they are simply not profitable, which would make them bad at business planning by the metric you originally applied to the Apollo developer.

 

[paradox00]

Capitalism has absolutely nothing to do with this topic at all. Moderating a subreddit is a hobby. If you disagree, then stop doing it. I guarantee you, someone else will pick up where you left off.

Capitalism has everything to do with this topic. The reddit CEO is making these changes to show a profit (I don't know if it will work) ahead of their IPO to maximize the return to exiting owners when the company goes public. It's another example of the ******tification of online platforms where the user experience degrades as company leadership pursues greater profits.

I was replying to someone who said "reddit did nothing wrong". That can only be true from a capitalist perspective, as the only thing that has the potential to improve is Reddit's monetary situation. Aka capital.

Edit: for the record, I'm not a moderator. I just have empathy for people, not companies.

 

[bgillander]

Everything Reddit is doing so far screams of desperation. The rush to IPO, the sudden renewed emphasis on profitability, and the cutting off of third party dev support to try and shore up their engagement numbers suggests they are trying to clean up their accounts prior to going public.

I don't know how many times this has to be repeated.

I am not against Reddit trying to make a profit. What I don't understand is why, of all the numerous ways this matter could have been handled, the CEO chose to go about it in a manner that would result in the most backlash and negative publicity. He initially promised that Reddit would continue to support third party apps, only to do an about-face and give them less than a month to respond (why not just state their intentions right from the get go, then give developers a longer window to react and wind down their subscriber base?). He doesn't even have the guts to come out and say that the company doesn't want to support third party apps, instead opting to go about it in a roundabout manner by raising API pricing beyond what was reasonable or feasible. He would try to smear Christian's name by accusing him of something he never did or said (what is he even trying to accomplish here?). And he has had Reddit admin restore previously deleted posts, mine included, so yeah, now it's personal.

I agree with you 100% that Reddit ought to do what's right for them, which is why this entire saga baffles me all the more. Like which of the aforementioned actions screams 4D chess to you? Which goes back to my initial point about Reddit leadership possibly acting out of desperation and bungling what could have been a far less messy and controversial transition to their own stock app.

This!

I had no opinion on Reddit when I saw the first story about this last month, but every story I have seen since then has made it look like they are in some weird competition with Warner/Discovery to see who can ruin their brand first.

Amazingly, it is the Reddit cheerleaders on this forum that have made me think Reddit might win that competition. I originally thought the Apollo developer was being pretty cheeky asking people to consider declining their refund, but the bile they spewed his way has made me think he’s not so bad in comparison. I cannot understand why people think being strident will bring people to their side, unless it is some brilliant reverse psychology scam and they actually are anti-Reddit.

 

[ninethirty]

Yes, but hating on a dude whose entire business just imploded is far more classless.

It doesn't really matter if the dude is going to be ok (which he will be), or if he's rich (which is probably is), or if his entire business idea was on shaky foundations (which it was) it's about not being a sociopath.

I'm not hating on the dude, I'm just baffled at people protesting on behalf of him for making bad business decisions and then asking for charity. I don't know how you can't see that.

 

[ninethirty]

Everything Reddit is doing so far screams of desperation. The rush to IPO, the sudden renewed emphasis on profitability, and the cutting off of third party dev support to try and shore up their engagement numbers suggests they are trying to clean up their accounts prior to going public.

I don't know how many times this has to be repeated.

I am not against Reddit trying to make a profit. What I don't understand is why, of all the numerous ways this matter could have been handled, the CEO chose to go about it in a manner that would result in the most backlash and negative publicity. He initially promised that Reddit would continue to support third party apps, only to do an about-face and give them less than a month to respond (why not just state their intentions right from the get go, then give developers a longer window to react and wind down their subscriber base?). He doesn't even have the guts to come out and say that the company doesn't want to support third party apps, instead opting to go about it in a roundabout manner by raising API pricing beyond what was reasonable or feasible. He would try to smear Christian's name by accusing him of something he never did or said (what is he even trying to accomplish here?). And he has had Reddit admin restore previously deleted posts, mine included, so yeah, now it's personal.

I agree with you 100% that Reddit ought to do what's right for them, which is why this entire saga baffles me all the more. Like which of the aforementioned actions screams 4D chess to you? Which goes back to my initial point about Reddit leadership possibly acting out of desperation and bungling what could have been a far less messy and controversial transition to their own stock app.

So in summary, you don't have anything to indicate that VC investments are drying up, and instead of replying to the points I made about Selig, you're going back to reddit.. for reasons.

 

[ninethirty]

Well for one thing, not showing a profit is not the same as “making nothing”. Amazon brought in tons of cash, they just ploughed it all back into technology investment. It paid off in the long run, but I recall it frustrating their investors in the early days. If Reddit is doing the same, good for them, but that means your portrayal of them as making nothing is no better than what you claim the Apollo developer is doing, a sympathy ploy for someone that doesn’t need it. Otherwise they are simply not profitable, which would make them bad at business planning by the metric you originally applied to the Apollo developer.

Reddit is not profitable, yet. They are also not asking for charity. Again, what goalposts did I move?

 

[bgillander]

Reddit is not profitable, yet. They are also not asking for charity. Again, what goalposts did I move?

The perfect business plan one. The same one you keep moving.

 

[AppleWatchGuy]

Christian is asking us to decline a refund, so the choice is still entirely up to us, and I am feeling particularly charitable right now. It's not as though he simply put out a statement saying "So long, suckers. Apollo's shutting down tomorrow and you won't see a single cent of your money back" before terminating his Macrumours account and going radio silent.

The choice is entirely up to you but doesn't change the fact that he's lying and guilt tripping people into giving him free money. None of this is out of pocket. It's money he is not entitled to. Then how is it IN his pocket?

He can set a donation jar and ask for all the money he wants. The fact is he knows he can guilt trip his fans base, which are brainwashed zombies at this point. But it needs to be called out, for what it is.

 

[ninethirty]

The perfect business plan one. The same one you keep moving.

Again, I'm not moving any goalposts, and you haven't proven that I have (nor will you be able to).

Companies like Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, etc, all start out the same way. They've got an idea, they pitch it to VC's, and they see the potential. They get on board with funding, and these companies now have deadlines to meet in terms of business building. Primarily with attracting users, and time spent engaging with content. In order to start up and get people into your service, you can't blast them with ads, or charge a monthly fee, so these sorts of companies tend to not be profitable for a while until they get to a point of having built a large enough user base, who relies on the site, and then boom, ads, subscription services, API pricing, etc.

Apollo isn't anything like that, because Apollo took advantage of a platform and user base that someone else built, and just built a front end UI on top of it. The problem with Apollo's plan is that at literally any moment, reddit could pull API access entirely, or charge for it, and he has absolutely no control over that at all. Unlike a business who works with a supplier that might raise prices, or go out of business, Selig can't just find another provider, because his entire business was built around a front end interface specifically for reddit. And now that exact situation has occurred, and he's asking for charity, because the cash cow has ended.

If you can't see how those two things are vastly different, and that I haven't moved any goalposts, and my positions have always been the same, I can't help you.

 

[laptech]

I'm not hating on the dude, I'm just baffled at people protesting on behalf of him for making bad business decisions and then asking for charity. I don't know how you can't see that.

You talk about the dev making bad business decisions but what about reddit? reddit allowed 3rd party developers to use the API for free. Do you consider this a bad business decision? If not because you are of the opinion reddit can do what they like with what they own, they why come down hard on the dev for using something that was given out for free? But if in your opinion it was a bad business decision then why are you not deriding reddit for allowing something that could have been very profitable to the company but decided to let others use it for free.

 

[laptech]

The choice is entirely up to you but doesn't change the fact that he's lying and guilt tripping people into giving him free money. None of this is out of pocket. It's money he is not entitled to. Then how is it IN his pocket?

He can set a donation jar and ask for all the money he wants. The fact is he knows he can guilt trip his fans base, which are brainwashed zombies at this point. But it needs to be called out, for what it is.

Please explain how the dev is not entitled to the money that he is going to be out of pocket with? He is offering his users two options, get a refund or decline the refund. Apollo customers will be the ones deciding what money he is entitled to with the decision they make.

 

[bgillander]

Again, I'm not moving any goalposts, and you haven't proven that I have (nor will you be able to).

Companies like Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, etc, all start out the same way. They've got an idea, they pitch it to VC's, and they see the potential. They get on board with funding, and these companies now have deadlines to meet in terms of business building. Primarily with attracting users, and time spent engaging with content. In order to start up and get people into your service, you can't blast them with ads, or charge a monthly fee, so these sorts of companies tend to not be profitable for a while until they get to a point of having built a large enough user base, who relies on the site, and then boom, ads, subscription services, API pricing, etc.

Apollo isn't anything like that, because Apollo took advantage of a platform and user base that someone else built, and just built a front end UI on top of it. The problem with Apollo's plan is that at literally any moment, reddit could pull API access entirely, or charge for it, and he has absolutely no control over that at all. Unlike a business who works with a supplier that might raise prices, or go out of business, Selig can't just find another provider, because his entire business was built around a front end interface specifically for reddit. And now that exact situation has occurred, and he's asking for charity, because the cash cow has ended.

If you can't see how those two things are vastly different, and that I haven't moved any goalposts, and my positions have always been the same, I can't help you.

You are now pitching a bait and switch business model as a good thing.

You will never grasp the movement because you somehow think that Reddit introducing a free API (which you stated lost them big money and which was too dumb to even serve ads) was a sound business plan, while the Apollo developer using that free API was a bad business plan. That is some crazy Schrödinger’s cat stuff you are spewing.

 

[AppleWatchGuy]

Please explain how the dev is not entitled to the money that he is going to be out of pocket with? He is offering his users two options, get a refund or decline the refund. Apollo customers will be the ones deciding what money he is entitled to with the decision they make.

How hard can this be to understand?

If you are paying for a donut "out of your pocket". <--- The money is yours. You paid for it. It's out of your pocket.

If someone told you to hold on to his wallet for a sec while he tie his shoelaces. You turned around and bought a donut with money in that wallet. <---- Money not yours. Not out of your pocket.

The guy is done tying shoelaces. He wants his wallet + money back. <------ You beg, please please please dont ask for the money back. I'm such a nice guy. I was just a little hungry, besides you are such a huge fan of me anyway so why do you care? The money you want back, I now have to pay "out of pocket". NO it's not. It's pathetic and greed. Must call out brainless fanboism, it's not healthy for our society thank you.

 

[tripsync]

Ok, and should everyone who has ever sold apps on Apple platforms be forced to refund their users if that happens?

If you don't provide the service you promised, Apple's TOS says they're allowed to force a refund. If you didn't like that as a developer, you wouldn't develop for Apple.

Does it mean that every single app developer out there making software for Apple's platforms is currently guilty of "stealing" by using Apple's tools and APIs for free that they can't guarantee will still be there tomorrow?

What? This makes no sense. Developers paid $99/year + 30% cut (15% cut for some). This funds Apple's tooling and services to developers.

 

[ninethirty]

Reddit isn’t throwing a pity party and asking for charity.

 

[jmho]

What? This makes no sense. Developers paid $99/year + 30% cut (15% cut for some). This funds Apple's tooling and services to developers.

From https://developer.apple.com/support/compare-memberships/

Free for everyone:

Benefits and Resources
Xcode developer tools
Xcode beta releases
On-device testing
Apple Developer Forums
Bug reporting with Feedback Assistant
OS beta releases

You can learn how to develop apps for Apple platforms for free without enrolling. With just an Apple ID, you can access Xcode, software downloads, documentation, sample code, forums, and Feedback Assistant, as well as test your apps on devices.

Note that I said "using Apple's tools and APIs for free"

Apple's tools and APIs are free for everyone. Sorry you're wrong.

Also the core app Apollo was free. Some helpful math: 30% (15% cut for some) of $0 is $0.

 

[tripsync]

From https://developer.apple.com/support/compare-memberships/

Free for everyone:

Benefits and Resources
Xcode developer tools
Xcode beta releases
On-device testing
Apple Developer Forums
Bug reporting with Feedback Assistant
OS beta releases

Note that I said "using Apple's tools and APIs for free"

Apple's tools and APIs are free for everyone. Sorry you're wrong.

So you're saying use tools and APIs but not sell a native app on Apple's platform because you can't notorize apps on Mac and release on iOS app Store using the free membership? How does that relate to Apollo?

What a nonsensical argument.

Also the core app Apollo was free. Some helpful math: 30% (15% cut for some) of $0 is $0.

Some helpful math: Apollo paid $99/year to release on the App Store. $99/year + 30% of $0 = $99/year. That paid for the tools/apis. What did I say that was incorrect? Sorry but you're wrong.

 

[jmho]

Some helpful math: Apollo paid $99/year to release on the App Store. $99/year paid for the tools/apis. Sorry but you're wrong.

Hahahaha. Are you the goalpost guy, since the goalposts were "Apple's tools are free" not "Apple's app distribution platform is free"

In what universe does paying $99 / year to distribute the app mean that apple's FREE tools aren't free?

It'd be like saying "Hey bro, actually Apollo wasn't using Reddit's api for free, because the dev bought $99 worth of reddit gold every year so he actually paid for the API"

 

[paradox00]

How hard can this be to understand?

If you are paying for a donut "out of your pocket". <--- The money is yours. You paid for it. It's out of your pocket.

If someone told you to hold on to his wallet for a sec while he tie his shoelaces. You turned around and bought a donut with money in that wallet. <---- Money not yours. Not out of your pocket.

The guy is done tying shoelaces. He wants his wallet + money back. <------ You beg, please please please dont ask for the money back. I'm such a nice guy. I was just a little hungry, besides you are such a huge fan of me anyway so why do you care? The money you want back, I now have to pay "out of pocket". NO it's not. It's pathetic and greed. Must call out brainless fanboism, it's not healthy for our society thank you.

That's a terrible analogy. All that's happened is that people pre-paid for a year of service and the economic conditions dramatically changed for the developer such that he can't provide that full year of service. He's offering refunds for the portion of that year that was paid for but won't be serviced, and asked for people to consider declining the refund. That's fine. The user gets to choose if they want to provide one last gesture of support to a person who's business is closing their doors or not. He was never holding anyone's wallet, he just had money that people paid him for a year of service in return. When they gave first him that money they weren't expecting any it back, so why are you talking about wallets and shoelaces?

If you want to use the donut analogy, it's like pre-paying for a punchcard that entitles you to 12 donuts, but before you used up the punchcard the donut shop went out of business. The owner offered to buy back the unused part of the punchcard, but asked you to consider declining the offer. It's up to you if you take a refund or if you want to support the owner while they transition to something else. You never asked them to hold your wallet, nor were you expecting money back when you bought the card. You just thought you were getting more donuts.

if you want to argue the developer is a terrible person for asking this, you're entitled to that opinion. But if you held everyone in the reddit story to that same standard, reddit's CEO would come out looking a lot worse, so I don't know why this would be the stance you choose.

 

[tripsync]

Hahahaha. Are you the goalpost guy, since the goalposts were "Apple's tools are free" not "Apple's app distribution platform is free"

In what universe does paying $99 / year to distribute the app mean that apple's FREE tools aren't free?

If you're goal post is Apple's tools are free but can't make money off of it, what does that have to do with Apollo?

Also, you'd need to buy an Apple device to use the tools. So quite literally you can't use Apple's tools for free. You're already wrong there.

It'd be like saying "Hey bro, actually Apollo wasn't using Reddit's api for free, because the dev bought $99 worth of reddit gold every year so he actually paid for the API"

"Hey bro, Apollo used something free and made money off of it. Totally the same as using Apple's tools for free and NOT making money off of it". That is a stupid argument.

Lol you're trying to dig yourself out of this argument but it isn't working.

 

[jmho]

If you're goal post is Apple's tools are free but can't make money off of it, what does that have to do with Apollo?

Go into the App Store and find Xcode. You'll find it at #1 in the "Top Free Apps" section of the Developer Tools section. Please tell me how much you need to pay to download this free app.

It's also fully functional so you can for example make a fully featured macOS app and sell it to make millions of dollars without giving Apple a single cent. You only need a $99/year sub if you want Apple to sell it for you.

How can I dig myself out of an argument, when there is no argument here - there's only you embarrassing yourself because you thought Xcode cost money and are now trying to weasel your way out of it.

It's a simple question that a child could answer: is Xcode free? Yes or no?

 

[tripsync]

It's also fully functional so you can for example make a fully featured macOS app and sell it to make millions of dollars without giving Apple a single cent. You only need a $99/year sub if you want Apple to sell it for you.

Uh, no.

You NEED $99/year to NOTORIZE your app even if you sell outside the App Store or else the software is *NOT* fully featured/fully functional. If your app requires, for example, sending push notifications, you need to notorize your app. Otherwise push notifications will not work.

Sorry, but you're very much wrong.

 

[jmho]

Uh, no.

You NEED $99/year to NOTORIZE your app even if you sell outside the App Store or else the software is *NOT* fully featured/fully functional. If your app requires, for example, sending push notifications, you need to notorize your app. Otherwise push notifications will not work.

Sorry, but you're very much wrong.

Just answer one incredibly simple question: Is Xcode free or not?

 

[tripsync]

Just answer one incredibly simple question: Is Xcode free or not?

Irrelevant question. You originally said "should everyone who has ever sold apps on Apple platforms be forced to refund their users if that happens". Selling fully functional apps on any of Apple's platforms requires notorization or goes through Apple's App Store which costs $99/year.

Lol