Apollo Now Offers Option to Decline Refund Ahead of June 30 Shutdown

[bgillander]

You're comparing apples (pun intended) and oranges.

Apple's business depends on those developers as much as the developers depend on Apple. The same was not true for reddit. Apple had a phone with no App Store, remember? Apple realized a better business model would be to have an App Store specifically for developers to submit their applications. The applications make iPhone better, and both Apple and developers make money in the process.

In the case of reddit, they were literally paying for 3rd party applications to exist, which didn't show users ads, and the developers of those applications made millions, while reddit made nothing.

So there's no point in answering your question, because it isn't ever going to happen. It's not something that's likely to happen. It's surprising that API access was free for as long as it was at reddit.

Reddit made nothing? Wow, I thought you were all about having a sound business plan that accounts for the future? I guess they should have gone out of business, then. But the metrics are apparently different for Reddit than everyone else in your eyes.

I can’t wait to see if they go forward with their IPO after this. They’ve got their fans all going out making them look so good to pump up that offer price, I guess.

 

[ninethirty]

If mods are expected to keep communities open, why are communities able to be made private in the first place? That makes no sense (like the rest of your arguments).

They weren't warned, they were threatened. And you still have yet to provide a single rule they have broken.

"effectively removing advertising for those subreddits" - aha, now you admit the truth, it wasn't about breaking the rules, it was about Reddit losing revenue from the free content the users produce for them.


Sure you don't.


You're the one defending Huffman not me.

>If mods are expected to keep their communities open, why...

Don't ask me. Ask reddit. They make the rules.

>They weren't warned, they were threatened.

They were warned.

>And you still have yet to provide...

You can read the moderators code of conduct that they all agreed to here:

Moderator Code of Conduct - Reddit

www.redditinc.com

I'd quote specifically the rules the mods broke, but the site isn't loading right now. If it does, I'll come back and edit it.

[Edit: Rule 4]

>aha, now you admit the truth

What do you mean "now I admit the truth?" Nobody's been dancing around this. Advertising is how reddit makes money. I worked most of my career in advertising. I LOATHE ads, but outside of reddit charging users a monthly fee (which I suppose they sort of do with reddit premium), you're gonna see ads. That's how they make money. This shouldn't be some big shocking reveal moment for you as if you've won the argument. Reddit makes money from ads. And when large communities shut down indefinitely, or switch to NSFW out of protest, reddit doesn't make money, and that violates the moderator code of conduct. This isn't the mystery you seem to think you just solved. This "free content users provide for them" thing is such a joke. Yeah, dude, it's a social media site. If you aren't paying for the product, you ARE the product. That's not unique to reddit. Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Twitch, TT literally all work the same way. Welcome to 2023!

>Sure you don't.

Why would I lie about this, or anything in a discussion? Besides, I'm sure reddit employees are prohibited from talking about this publicly. They're likely not authorized to represent the company on this matter. Either way, I don't work for reddit. If you don't believe me, oh well.

>You're the one defending Huffman not me.

I wouldn't say that I'm defending Huffman as much as I'm pointing out how ridiculous people are acting about this. The reality of this situation is, a small, but vocal minority of Reddits users seem to think that they actually own the site, and that they decide the direction the company goes in. They don't. They're upset that they're losing an app they like. That's it. Christian Selig is a literal millionaire. All the money he made was based on what reddit created and maintained for him, and users. So if you want to go after reddit for taking advantage of free content users give to them, then you must really have an even bigger issue with Selig, since he took advantage of a platform he didn't build, and didn't pay to maintain, AND the free content users provided, and then had the gall to charge users a monthly, or lifetime fee on top of that. He made millions. Stop purposefully missing the point here.

 

[Stromos]

But if I looked at spicy content in Apollo or the official app, isn't that exactly what they know?

Apple may try their best to protect my privacy, but if I log into a reddit app and tap on content, then no amount of Privacy Relay is going to save me from surveillance.

Yes they know said account looked at whatever it is with a iPhone. Not even sure which iPhone model because Apple has sanitized that data too.

On a browser they know you looked at something on that browser on that computer on that internet connection. It’s just more detailed. They know senator Bob looked at work on his work computer. He can’t look on his phone.

They are going for every bit of data they can harvest.

 

[ninethirty]

Reddit made nothing? Wow, I thought you were all about having a sound business plan that accounts for the future?

Many business operate without making a profit while they grow their user base and feature set. Ever heard of a little company called Amazon? You should look into how long they weren't profitable for.

 

[GizmoDVD]

Wow, that’s like Jim Jones criticizing the Moonies. Pot, meet kettle. I actually had no interest in Reddit or Apollo and was trying to avoid the toxic nature of this thread, but seeing your complete misrepresentations of the few facts I have read here and in the news made me feel the need to post. I expect your posts have actually created several fans for Christian, when they get to see what he had to deal with.

What? Dude is a millionaire begging people not to accept a refund all while grifting his wallpaper packs.

He's an excellent con man. Congrats to you, drink up the kool aid.

 

[jmho]

What? Dude is a millionaire begging people not to accept a refund all while grifting his wallpaper packs.

He's an excellent con man. Congrats to you, drink up the kool aid.

How are you able to function in society?

More importantly, how/why are you on a forum for fans of luxury products sold by the most valuable company in the world that is staffed to the brim with millionaires and whose unofficial motto is "never leave money on the table"

 

[laptech]

Many business operate without making a profit while they grow their user base and feature set. Ever heard of a little company called Amazon? You should look into how long they weren't profitable for.

Having read the posts in here, you appear to be very out spoken of the Apollo dev and to me it seems this anger/disgust you have of the man is down to him making money from something that was given out for free, am I right? and if that is so, if you owned/ran a business and noticed that another company was offering something for free that you could use and make money out of, due to your disgust at the Apollo dev for making money from something that was given for free, are you saying you would not do the same? Even though you know you could make lot's of money you would say 'No, I cannot do this because it's not right I will be making money from something that was given out for free'? Is that what you are basically trying to portray to everyone in here? You would not have done what the dev did?

 

[GizmoDVD]

How are you able to function in society?

More importantly, how/why are you on a forum for fans of luxury products sold by the most valuable company in the world that is staffed to the brim with millionaires and whose unofficial motto is "never leave money on the table"

What? Do you need Apollo to blackmail you as well? Maybe 10 mil and we can go away?

 

[elmateo487]

I'm aware that reddit previously didn't charge for API access, yes. I'm also aware that they are now choosing to charge for that service. They don't have to react reasonably (whatever that means), because it's their business. They can choose to do whatever they want.

I'm not siding with big giant corporations, I'm siding with common sense. Reddit is a business, and they aren't profitable. They were literally paying server costs for these 3rd party apps to exist and they don't want to anymore. It doesn't matter what the reason is. It's their decision to make. Not ours.

Also, I got a good laugh at "small developers." Look into how much money Christian Selig has made from Apollo. He's a millionaire.

Yes I know he is a millionaire. And he did it all by himself. Built one of the best built iOS apps by himself. Good for him.

You are purposefully being obtuse and you know it.

It was costing Reddit millions a year in server costs, total. Yet they wanted to charge Apollo 20 million?

Reddit isn’t profitable because they are a terribly run company who will go the way of Facebook.

 

[AgeOfSpiracles]

Yikes. The way you guys are arguing about this, I thought I was on Reddit for a second.

 

[ninethirty]

Having read the posts in here, you appear to be very out spoken of the Apollo dev and to me it seems this anger/disgust you have of the man is down to him making money from something that was given out for free, am I right? and if that is so, if you owned/ran a business and noticed that another company was offering something for free that you could use and make money out of, due to your disgust at the Apollo dev for making money from something that was given for free, are you saying you would not do the same? Even though you know you could make lot's of money you would say 'No, I cannot do this because it's not right I will be making money from something that was given out for free'? Is that what you are basically trying to portray to everyone in here? You would not have done what the dev did?

No, that is not right. I don't have any anger toward him, although I would describe this move of asking users to decline a refund to be pretty scammy, but still, I don't have anything against the dev. Good on him for cashing in while he did. I would do the same, HOWEVER, I would be aware that one day the cash cow would end, and I would not be pleading for sympathy or begging my users to continue to support me financially. That crosses into grifting as far as I'm concerned.

My issue is with the people protesting on behalf of him. The arguments are beyond ludicrous. They got used to something they liked, they're upset it's going away, and on paper a stronger argument is "reddit is killing mom and pop devs because they're greedy," as opposed to "they took away my toy."

 

[ninethirty]

Yes I know he is a millionaire. And he did it all by himself. Built one of the best built iOS apps by himself. Good for him.

You are purposefully being obtuse and you know it.

It was costing Reddit millions a year in server costs, total. Yet they wanted to charge Apollo 20 million?

Reddit isn’t profitable because they are a terribly run company who will go the way of Facebook.

"All by himself." Now that's a laugh I didn't know I needed.

>who will go the way of Facebook.

Less than a year ago, FB stock was ~90. Today it's ~285. I'm sure reddit would be happy to go the way of Facebook.

 

[jonblatho]

I know that I'd rather react to facts and reality instead of blindly joining the mob protesting on behalf of a developer who made MILLIONS by using everything that reddit built for free.

And? Reddit didn’t ask for payment until now. Stop acting like he was doing anything unscrupulous when he was just using a free, public, documented API within the bounds of its usage guidelines.

Speaking of acting like he was doing anything unscrupulous, I’ve still yet to see you acknowledge your mistake earlier when you said that “he’d hide ads,” by the way. Reddit didn’t include ads in their API output, and he can’t “hide” what wasn’t presented to him in the first place. That’s Reddit’s own damn fault.

 

[atokads]

Yikes. The way you guys are arguing about this, I thought I was on Reddit for a second.

Yeah. After following these Reddit API/Apollo threads, my ignore list has gotten quite a bit longer.

 

[jmho]

Less than a year ago, FB stock was ~90. Today it's ~285. I'm sure reddit would be happy to go the way of Facebook.

Yes, less than a year ago FB stock was ~90, but less than two years ago FB stock was ~380 so that's not exactly an impressive stat

 

[bgillander]

Many business operate without making a profit while they grow their user base and feature set. Ever heard of a little company called Amazon? You should look into how long they weren't profitable for.

Wow, you love to move the goalposts… and large corporations, too, it seems.

 

[Dreamweaver12]

Yeah developers should enjoy being cheated by the big tech companies and get nothing back for their life.

How was he cheated? Reddit owes it to the world to be nearly free for everyone to make money off them?

 

[GizmoDVD]

We can all continue this discussion tomorrow when MacRumors lets us know that Apollo is no longer working

 

[Abazigal]

Many business operate without making a profit while they grow their user base and feature set. Ever heard of a little company called Amazon? You should look into how long they weren't profitable for.

Amazon also had the benefit of enjoying a pretty profitable AWS business which could keep pumping them with money to stay afloat. What's Reddit being kept afloat by, aside from investor funding which seems to be quickly drying up?

No, that is not right. I don't have any anger toward him, although I would describe this move of asking users to decline a refund to be pretty scammy, but still, I don't have anything against the dev. Good on him for cashing in while he did. I would do the same, HOWEVER, I would be aware that one day the cash cow would end, and I would not be pleading for sympathy or begging my users to continue to support me financially. That crosses into grifting as far as I'm concerned.

Like you said, Christian is asking us to decline a refund, so the choice is still entirely up to us, and I am feeling particularly charitable right now. It's not as though he simply put out a statement saying "So long, suckers. Apollo's shutting down tomorrow and you won't see a single cent of your money back" before terminating his Macrumours account and going radio silent.

The fact that he is not only doing so, but that there has been a groundswell of consumer support behind him, and I feel this could really teach people a thing or two about running a successful business. In a nutshell, this whole argument can be summed up with one word - trust.

I buy Apple gear because I trust Apple, and I think that's one of the really important aspects of Apple that many people don't really understand - that Apple really goes the distance in building trust relationships with their customers.

It's the the same way people connect with their hairdresser or babysitter. I don’t evaluate them solely on objective metrics. Instead, we connect based on how well we communicate, whether we trust them to be truthful and fair with us, how well we approach a given problem, and so on. That doesn't mean I am a cultist to the 40-year-old down the street who cuts my hair out of her apartment; it just means that my mom and I trust her and have built a rapport with her, and that's about 90% of what we're buying as part of that service.

And it's the same thing with Christian Selig. I buy trust, not specs, and most certainly not just an app. And something tells me that if your situation were reversed with his, nobody here would be willing to extend you the same courtesy. And maybe the reason why you can so "proudly" claim that you would never request for sympathy is because you are not confident that you would even receive any in the first place, and perhaps that's something for you to reflect on.

 

[ninethirty]

And? Reddit didn’t ask for payment until now. Stop acting like he was doing anything unscrupulous when he was just using a free, public, documented API within the bounds of its usage guidelines.

Speaking of acting like he was doing anything unscrupulous, I’ve still yet to see you acknowledge your mistake earlier when you said that “he’d hide ads,” by the way. Reddit didn’t include ads in their API output, and he can’t “hide” what wasn’t presented to him in the first place. That’s Reddit’s own damn fault.

Nobody said he did anything unscrupulous. I have no idea why you guys keep making this straw man argument. He took advantage and rightfully so, but now that gravy train is over. It was full while it lasted, but he's not a victim. He isn't owed anything and he certainly shouldn't be asking users to decline a refund when his net worth is in the millions.

 

[ninethirty]

Wow, you love to move the goalposts… and large corporations, too, it seems.

What goal posts did I move? You asked a question, presumably to stump me, and I educated you about something wildly basic that you should already know.

 

[bgillander]

What? Dude is a millionaire begging people not to accept a refund all while grifting his wallpaper packs.

He's an excellent con man. Congrats to you, drink up the kool aid.

Sorry, that would literally be the Jim Jones side, so you picked the wrong team, as you shills are serving the “kool aid” (and for historical accuracy, it was actually Flavor Aid, not Kool-Aid.)

I don’t even have the app, I just got tired of reading posts from Reddit sycophants talking about cults while they were the ones telling everyone what to do. I didn’t notice a single post from the other side telling anyone they need to donate, just some humanity and sympathy for a guy that wrote an app they liked. It’s just getting annoying how many people these days whine about their freedom while telling everyone else what to do.

And unless you somehow think those wallpaper packs don’t really exist, I don’t think you know what grifting means.

 

[ninethirty]

Yes, less than a year ago FB stock was ~90, but less than two years ago FB stock was ~380 so that's not exactly an impressive stat

And just over 10 years ago, FB stock debuted at $38. Not a bad return for investors, especially if they sold 380 less than 2 years ago, bought back in at 90 and are sitting even more pretty right now.

If reddit ends up anything like Facebook, I'm sure they'll be quite happy.

 

[izzy0242mr]

As the developer, I just want to say, I don't think you're a bad person or anything if you take the refund, but I do really appreciate the folks who are kind in declining it.

For reference, 30 days ago Reddit was still being very promising with their claims for the API pricing to be equitable and based in reality, and 4 months before that Reddit told me they had no plans to change the API this year, so this level of refund really hit me out of nowhere.

It's a gut punch, and I loved building Apollo, but the kindness and support people have shown over the last few weeks really means a lot in making this easier to swallow, so I genuinely really do appreciate those folks considering declining the refund.

Have you considered trying to re-tool the Apollo app interface to be a nice wrapper for the fediverse? Someone like you could even use your app as the central hub for accessing what is otherwise a very messy string of loosely connected "instances" of the fediverse. You could actually make it accessible for the average person. Just a thought.

 

[ninethirty]

Amazon also had the benefit of enjoying a pretty profitable AWS business which could keep pumping them with money to stay afloat. What's Reddit being kept afloat by, aside from investor funding which seems to be quickly drying up?

Like you said, Christian is asking us to decline a refund, so the choice is still entirely up to us, and I am feeling particularly charitable right now. It's not as though he simply put out a statement saying "So long, suckers. Apollo's shutting down tomorrow and you won't see a single cent of your money back" before terminating his Macrumours account and going radio silent.

The fact that he is not only doing so, but that there has been a groundswell of consumer support behind him, and I feel this could really teach people a thing or two about running a successful business. In a nutshell, this whole argument can be summed up with one word - trust.

I buy Apple gear because I trust Apple, and I think that's one of the really important aspects of Apple that many people don't really understand - that Apple really goes the distance in building trust relationships with their customers.

It's the the same way people connect with their hairdresser or babysitter. I don’t evaluate them solely on objective metrics. Instead, we connect based on how well we communicate, whether we trust them to be truthful and fair with us, how well we approach a given problem, and so on. That doesn't mean I am a cultist to the 40-year-old down the street who cuts my hair out of her apartment; it just means that my mom and I trust her and have built a rapport with her, and that's about 90% of what we're buying as part of that service.

And it's the same thing with Christian Selig. I buy trust, not specs, and most certainly not just an app. And something tells me that if your situation were reversed with his, nobody here would be willing to extend you the same courtesy. And maybe the reason why you can so "proudly" claim that you would never request for sympathy is because you are not confident that you would even receive any in the first place, and perhaps that's something for you to reflect on.

Reddit is being kept afloat by investor funding, yes. Do you have something you can point to that shows that's quickly drying up?

>The fact that he is not only doing so, but that there has been a groundswell of consumer support behind him

Which is mind boggling considering the money he made, selling a front end interface to a platform that reddit built, using content that users provide. He's made millions, and now throwing a pity party because the gravy train has come to an end. Hey, good for him, I'm glad he made money, but reddit has to do what's right for them, not for 3rd party developers, and that's that.

Asking people to decline a refund for service they won't receive is pretty classless IMO. Especially because he should have always known this was a possibility, and had a plan for it that wasn't "poor me, reddit bad."

 

[jmho]

Asking people to decline a refund for service they won't receive is pretty classless IMO. Especially because he should have always known this was a possibility, and had a plan for it that wasn't "poor me, reddit bad."

Yes, but hating on a dude whose entire business just imploded is far more classless.

It doesn't really matter if the dude is going to be ok (which he will be), or if he's rich (which is probably is), or if his entire business idea was on shaky foundations (which it was) it's about not being a sociopath.