Apple Accuses AliveCor of 'Brazen' Patent Infringement in New Countersuit

[ericthered926]

My parents had a Kardia well before the Apple Watch Series 4 came out… to say that AliveCor brazenly copied Apple is a blatant lie seems quite disingenuous. Maybe Apple swept in and got a patent first, but Kardia had the first consumer oriented, FDA cleared ecg device in 2012! If they copied apple then why wait 10 years to make it an issue? The Apple Watch Series 4 didn’t come out until 6 years after the first Kardia, and the ecg feature didn’t launch until later.

I love Apple products, and I’m willing to change my mind as more info is revealed, but I don’t understand the need to defend a multi-trillion dollar company when the evidence we do have right now doesn’t appear to be in their favor. At all.

 

[steve09090]

My parents had a Kardia well before the Apple Watch Series 4 came out… to say that AliveCor copied Apple is a blatant lie. Maybe Apple swept in and got a patent first, but Kardia had the first consumer oriented, FDA cleared ecg device in 2012! The Apple Watch Series 4 didn’t come out until 6 years later, and the ecg feature didn’t launch until later.

I love Apple products, and I’m willing to change my mind as more info is revealed, but I don’t understand the need to defend a multi-trillion dollar company when the evidence we do have right now doesn’t appear to be in their favor. At all.

How do you know that when AliveCor quote Apple patents?

I think the evidence will be weighed by a court. What evidence isn’t in their favour? The time? On that basis Apple would have no rights to any of its patents because it always takes many years for Apple to bring its patent to products. And we know that is true (except maybe the butterfly keyboard) 😂

 

[ericthered926]

How do you know that when AliveCor quote Apple patents?

I think the evidence will be weighed by a court. What evidence isn’t in their favour? The time? On that basis Apple would have no rights to any of its patents because it always takes many years for Apple to bring its patent to products. And we know that is true (except maybe the butterfly keyboard) 😂

This is a counter suit. The ITC ruled that Apple infringed on AliveCor patents last year. I know these things take time, and I didn’t word things well in my last comment (a patent is a patent is a patent), but I don’t understand why so many people always give Apple the benefit of the doubt. The only thing in their favor right now is a press release and a counter suit announcement.

Competition is good, and Apple is in a unique position to stifle it, so we should call it out when we see it rather than blindly defend 🤷‍♂️ and obviously have an open mind. Maybe I’m completely wrong here, but I don’t get the blind following. Coming from someone who has read this site every day for the last 17 years and could technically be considered a “fanboy”.

All that said, I do still mostly agree with you. I was heated when I saw the headline and posted my first comment, but we do need to wait and see. To say it’s a blatant lie was an exaggeration. I just wish more people on here would advocate for the little guys. It’s possible to both do that and be an Apple fan.

 

[Aston441]

I have to say considering Kardia were on the market way before Apple was, like a good couple of years, I think I’ll side with Kardia. Apple could easily patent anything they like at any time, and it’s not till someone complains that they get called out.
Kardia are also way better as at first they did 2 lead readings I think and now do 6 lead, Apple has stuck to 1 for years now with absolutely no innovation in its ECG reader. Both are accurate, I only use my Apple Watch though but have considered switching to Kardia for its 6 lead readings.

”According to Apple, AliveCor's product line has not been successful with customers, and the company's "failures in the market" have led it to "opportunistic assertions of its patents against Apple."

To be honest that’s just total BS by Apples lawyers, Kardia are hardly a mass market device and are recommended by cardiologists, it’s hardly a mass number who need one, Apple sticking an EKG on EVERY Apple Watch sold since the series 4 tends to give them a dominant advantage in the market that it can abuse as they see fit, like claiming Kardia haven’t been as successful, well if as many people needed Kardia EKG readers as Apple has sold watches since the Series 4, then their would be something SERIOUSLY wrong with the human races health.

Yup. Kardia was on the market for many, many years. When Apple put it in the watch I figured they must have licensed it. Apple deserves to lose big time.

 

[centauratlas]

Easy for Apple to see every app's source code once it's submitted to the app store so Apple can easily steal the concept.

...

Given that developers do not submit source code, just apps built with Xcode that seems unlikely.

As far as that goes, also the issue isn't the code, it is the patents. If apple has patents that predate AliveCor's existence (and patents) it doesn't matter what the code says.

Likewise, you can't patent an idea, you can only patent an implementation of an idea.

 

[genovelle]

I have to say considering Kardia were on the market way before Apple was, like a good couple of years, I think I’ll side with Kardia. Apple could easily patent anything they like at any time, and it’s not till someone complains that they get called out.
Kardia are also way better as at first they did 2 lead readings I think and now do 6 lead, Apple has stuck to 1 for years now with absolutely no innovation in its ECG reader. Both are accurate, I only use my Apple Watch though but have considered switching to Kardia for its 6 lead readings.

”According to Apple, AliveCor's product line has not been successful with customers, and the company's "failures in the market" have led it to "opportunistic assertions of its patents against Apple."

To be honest that’s just total BS by Apples lawyers, Kardia are hardly a mass market device and are recommended by cardiologists, it’s hardly a mass number who need one, Apple sticking an EKG on EVERY Apple Watch sold since the series 4 tends to give them a dominant advantage in the market that it can abuse as they see fit, like claiming Kardia haven’t been as successful, well if as many people needed Kardia EKG readers as Apple has sold watches since the Series 4, then their would be something SERIOUSLY wrong with the human races health.

Considering Apple I takes years developing features that are blatantly leaked and often copied by competitors looking to beat them to market. Apple’s comments point out that they have had patents for this technology since before this company even existed. I think Apple didn’t make a big deal out of it initially because they were not a threat, but by making themselves a threat by trying to block Apple’s Product Apple has to show their hand

 

[apparatchik]

Easy for Apple to see every app's source code once it's submitted to the app store so Apple can easily steal the concept.

Apple Health is the furthest from innovative- all of the 'health' features in iOS have been around for a decade and were created by big pharma and med. device companies.

This is false they get an artifact or build not your source code

 

[jingbugle]

As a user of AliveCor products, they were in the business previously holding a lot more IP. I am sure Apple must have done a good amount of work to enhance the experience, but not original. Knowing how Apple bullies around with its massive legal team, it will be tough for AliveCor.

 

[roar08]

 

[svish]

Waiting to see the outcome of this legal battle.

 

[steve09090]

This is a counter suit. The ITC ruled that Apple infringed on AliveCor patents last year. I know these things take time, and I didn’t word things well in my last comment (a patent is a patent is a patent), but I don’t understand why so many people always give Apple the benefit of the doubt. The only thing in their favor right now is a press release and a counter suit announcement.

Competition is good, and Apple is in a unique position to stifle it, so we should call it out when we see it rather than blindly defend 🤷‍♂️ and obviously have an open mind. Maybe I’m completely wrong here, but I don’t get the blind following. Coming from someone who has read this site every day for the last 17 years and could technically be considered a “fanboy”.

All that said, I do still mostly agree with you. I was heated when I saw the headline and posted my first comment, but we do need to wait and see. To say it’s a blatant lie was an exaggeration. I just wish more people on here would advocate for the little guys. It’s possible to both do that and be an Apple fan.

And I 100% agree with you. I’d also like the underdog to do well too. I do have to say though, if AliveCor are going out to sue Apple, then they have to expect a return fire. As much as Apple have done some wonderful things and have some ideals that align with mine, it’s also in their DNA to protect their copyright (sue the pants off of anyone who defies them). As we know often these law suits are decided by who has the bigger/better law firm.

If Apples greatest goal is to contribute to health, I’d like to see them open their patents up for anyone to use. But that’s not Apple.

 

[Villarrealadrian]

You have proof to back up your accusation against Apple, right?

Well if you are a developer you can see when you upload the code its obvious, as obvious as you are not a developer

 

[SoldOnApple]

Easy for Apple to see every app's source code once it's submitted to the app store so Apple can easily steal the concept.

Actually Apple can't see your source code. You submit a binary to Apple when uploading an app. Apple can scan that binary to look for things that break the App Store rules, but they can't "see" your source code.

 

[HackMacDaddy]

I just bought the Kardia 6L recently and I highly recommend it. The device itself and the app work flawlessly and two cardiologists I visited used these in their clinics. I hope this dispute wont result in the app disappearing from the app store

 

[Terrinb]

There's a lot that I view as problematic with respect to the App Store business model — like the potential for use of proprietary data to identify and copy nascent app/service ideas, which Apple claims does not happen — but Apple cannot see the corresponding source code for App Store submissions.

Like I alluded to, though, Apple doesn't need to see the source code in order to copy ideas.

Nor does anybody so why lie and state Apple has access to source code? What is clear is most people on these forums have no idea what they are talking about, haven’t read the legal filings, and have no idea how patent law works. Further under the right circumstances it is perfectly fine to copy an idea. Just ask Microsoft.

 

[Terrinb]

My parents had a Kardia well before the Apple Watch Series 4 came out… to say that AliveCor brazenly copied Apple is a blatant lie seems quite disingenuous. Maybe Apple swept in and got a patent first, but Kardia had the first consumer oriented, FDA cleared ecg device in 2012! If they copied apple then why wait 10 years to make it an issue? The Apple Watch Series 4 didn’t come out until 6 years after the first Kardia, and the ecg feature didn’t launch until later.

I love Apple products, and I’m willing to change my mind as more info is revealed, but I don’t understand the need to defend a multi-trillion dollar company when the evidence we do have right now doesn’t appear to be in their favor. At all.

And what evidence is that?

 

[deevey]

That’s some stretch, considering Alivecor was founded in 2011, and Apple didn’t launch its ECG in the Apple Watch till 2018.

ECG was toted as a coming feature since the first Apple watch Gen1.

With AW1 development alone taking 3 years, the idea itself a couple of years before, it stands to reason that Apple may well have patented certain wearable ECG technologies a long time before Alivecor existed. 2001 has been mentioned elsewhere on the interwebs as the start of Apples ECG development.

I'd not be surprised if they weren't looking at trying to build an ECG iPod accessory at the time.

 

[TheOldChevy]

Tbh, I’m no patent lawyer, but I was just saying what Apple write in their lawsuit.

Page 2 line 16

For example, in 2008, Apple had already developed and filed for patent protection on specific and foundational technologies pertaining to embedded heart rate and electric cardiac activity monitors.​

​

Page 3 Line 15

Founded in 2010, AliveCor's business has focused on the sale of portable ECG devices which rely on numerous technologies in Apple's iPhone and/or Watch to provide ECG information to AliveCor's customers. Rather than develop its technology from scratch, however, AliveCor resorted to including the very technology that Apple created and patented. This was no accident: AliveCor has long known of Apple's patented technology, as many of AliveCor's own patents cite to many of Apple's patented innovations.​

I don’t pretend to understand the specific patents, and that’s for lawyers and judge/jury to decide. But they’re making a pretty compelling case, but again, that’s what lawyers do, and I bet Apples lawyers are pretty experienced at that.

I have no idea which way they will go.

It's not because they have patents that they have strong patents. The field of EKG et portable EKG is not new, many things have been done for more than 20 years. As Apple did not have a real product until 2018, the chance that they have strong patents (patents that uniquely solve a real problem) is small.

 

[Pezimak]

Considering Apple I takes years developing features that are blatantly leaked and often copied by competitors looking to beat them to market. Apple’s comments point out that they have had patents for this technology since before this company even existed. I think Apple didn’t make a big deal out of it initially because they were not a threat, but by making themselves a threat by trying to block Apple’s Product Apple has to show their hand

Just because Apple patented something does not mean they had developed it. Apple must own thousands of patents to stop others coming up with similar ideas that have never left the drawing page.
Maybe they did develop it, I just find it very hard to be it took Apple 10 years to develop an ecg reader, but it does seem unlike pulse readers which have been in watches since the 80’s, ECG readers are a very recent thing in watches.

You will have to provide proof that Apples patents were stolen, and that Alivecor directly copied them years before Apple brought the tech to market. And no Apple lawyers simply making that claim isn‘t proof until they provide said proof.
How are Alivecor a threat exactly? It can hardly be in sales numbers and Alivecor’s customer base is a fraction of the Apple Watches, or are they a threat because they have already had a judge rule in their favour and agree Apple has breached 2 of their patents?

http://www.fiercehealthcare.com/digital-health/judge-finds-apple-violated-alivecors-patent-rights-setting-potential-us-apple-watch

That makes them a threat because they have a valid case against Apple as already agreed by one judge?

Again maybe Apple did develop a watch ecg sensor for 10 years or developed it years before brining it or market, but when I see Apples lawyers counter suing Ericsson after Ericsson filed a court case against them, all because they didn’t do a cheap enough deal for them to use its tech in the iPhones, and Apple then giving into Ericsson literally outside the courtroom doors as they knew they didn’t have a leg to stand on, and when Apples lawyers stand up in court making claims competitors had copied the colours black and white or an oblong shape, you’ll forgive me when I don’t really trust a word they claim, especially since a Judge has already ruled against them on these patents.

 

[steve09090]

It's not because they have patents that they have strong patents. The field of EKG et portable EKG is not new, many things have been done for more than 20 years. As Apple did not have a real product until 2018, the chance that they have strong patents (patents that uniquely solve a real problem) is small.

How could you possibly know how strong their patent is?

 

[neuropsychguy]

Well if you are a developer you can see when you upload the code its obvious, as obvious as you are not a developer

Can you explain what you mean? Are you saying Apple has access to every app’s source code when the app is submitted for review?

 

[centauratlas]

Well if you are a developer you can see when you upload the code its obvious, as obvious as you are not a developer

Conflating code and source code is disingenuous. Developers don’t upload source code. They upload the app which is (essentially) the compiled version.

 

[centauratlas]

I just find it very hard to be it took Apple 10 years to develop an ecg reader,

They easily could’ve developed it sooner, but it could take several years to miniaturize it, make it reliable, improve power usage, integrate it into a chipset, then a year or two into the pipeline etc.

Just like “2001 a Space Odyssey” (and probably others) “developed” the iPad (or newton). It just took 30-40 years to create one. 😀😀😀

 

[jlc1978]

That’s some stretch, considering Alivecor was founded in 2011, and Apple didn’t launch its ECG in the Apple Watch till 2018.

The time between coming up with an idea, patenting it and launching a product can be long. I've worked with some medical device companies and their R&D to product timelines can easily be 7 or more years.

 

[BootsWalking]

Apple is the pioneering innovator, having researched, developed, and patented core, foundational technologies before AliveCor came into existence.

Considering that AliveCor developed and released their ECG product years before Apple, this declaration must mean Apple has researched, developed, and patented a time machine.