Apple Accuses AliveCor of 'Brazen' Patent Infringement in New Countersuit

[Carnegie]

They have done several things. They bought patents and were assigned all US rights to those patents, and they have developed the patents and these developments have been included in their patents.

People should just a look at the patent law suit. I’ve linked it again below.

1. Patent 257. “Seamlessly Embedded Heart Rate Monitor”. A system to identify an EKG in an external enclosed system different to the previous method. They outline it very clearly in the document. Page 8.
2. Patent 619 "Electronic Device Having Sealed Button Biometric Sensing System" is a method of waterproofing such device. Page 16.
3. Patent 898 "Wellness Aggregator" has to do with the way in which the data is stored. Page 24. It goes in to great detail about this citing very many examples.
4. Patent 533 "User Interfaces For Health Monitoring" is the way in which hardware and software resolve difficult or problematic measurements. Page 41

People should really read the document before making blanket statements.

I have never even indicated that I am a patent lawyer, yet I will say that I believe it is the responsibility to search patents to ensure you are not infringing. AliveCor may very well have "invented" the same technology that Apple has bought, improved or invented, and it’s not unusual to have 2 different parties inventing the same product. However my understanding is that the Party who has patented the technology first has the rights to that patent. They may have brought these to market prior as well, but that makes no difference. AliveCor should have done it’s due diligence.


They made the Apple Watch, so I don’t believe it’s patent trolling, or anything like it. They bought the initial patent to have an external device unlike what has been done before. AliveCor has used that technology to bring it product. Apple has no interest in making medical devices where you put your thumb on each pad to get a reading. It’s not a wearable.

As Apple have said before, sometimes they have to wait decades to bring products to life. Now that 3nm chips are being developed, they may have a whole string of products they have had on the shelves. Who knows?

These don't appear to be patents which Apple bought. Apple is the applicant as well as the original assignee on all of them. So these are almost certainly inventions by people working for Apple.

I'd also note that the oldest among them (i.e. the '257 patent) features embodiments related to iPhones. The included drawings are of iPhones with leads placed around the bezels or under the display. And some of the example embodiments describe the same (though I don't think, and wouldn't expect, that the term iPhone was used).

 

[Carnegie]

A first to invent does not mean the first to release. You’re hung up on this release thing. Totally irrelevant. And Apple didn’t invent patent 257.

Prior to issuance, the ’257 Patent inventors assigned all right, title, and interest in U.S. Patent Application Serial No. 14/136,658 to Apple.​

​

If anything it shows us how far ahead Apple are researching and developing their products.

Apple didn't actually invent the '257 patent, no. It couldn't have. For patent application purposes a corporation can't be an inventor. An inventor has to be a human. (There can be co-inventors that are all humans.) When we say something like... Apple invented this, or IBM invented that... what we typically mean is that someone (or some group of someones) working for Apple or IBM invented this or that. The company will likely be the patent applicant and the original assignee. But the company won't be the named inventor.

 

[Carnegie]

Yet Apple claimed they themselves are the ones who innovated the inventions in question. But that's neither here nor there.

The reason I bring up the release date is because it's clear the development of the technology occurred years before the release, in this case the inventor worked on it for I believe 10 years before the release, so it's more of a guide as to how long and how early they were on the invention.

To the extent Apple claimed that, it's because that's how such situations are generally described. No corporation has, in that sense, invented anything. It is humans that, for patent purposes, invent things. If Google claims to have invented something, it likely means that a Google employee or multiple Google employees invented that something while working for Google. AliveCor didn't, in the same sense, invent the things it has asserted patents for either. Its employees, or people otherwise associated with AliveCor in some way, did.

These asserted patents are, in every real sense and certainly in common parlance, for Apple inventions. Apple didn't, e.g., buy them from some other company.

 

[dojoman]

So is the Apple Watch FDA approved? Or only cleared? Also what does FDA approved mean?



Interesting, my data doesn't show anything apart from my heart pounding away. But the ecg doesn't show anything according to my cardiologist. I've not been offered surgery, have to take a pill everyday. I did change my diet and exercise a lot more since my first attack though.
What Apple Watch do you have? I find my series 4 uncomfortable after a while and was thinking if the Ultra would be better as it's a bit bigger and lighter? Expensive though.

Very interesting user experiences and information on here I wasn't aware of.

Do you have SVT? If not, it won’t show anything unless you do have SVT episode. Mine was very obvious in EKG app, your cardiologist isn’t correct. I can see the difference between normal beats and SVT. Showed it to two different cardiologists they both can see SVT on the graph. I’ve had this since I was a kid, was never able to capture it during Dr visit since you need to be in the episode, Watch basically solved my problem since I was able to capture every time I had them. I did it on series 5.

 

[Pezimak]

Do you have SVT? If not, it won’t show anything unless you do have SVT episode. Mine was very obvious in EKG app, your cardiologist isn’t correct. I can see the difference between normal beats and SVT. Showed it to two different cardiologists they both can see SVT on the graph. I’ve had this since I was a kid, was never able to capture it during Dr visit since you need to be in the episode, Watch basically solved my problem since I was able to capture every time I had them. I did it on series 5.

Yes I do and personally I’ll trust my cardiologist thanks. It does not always show in ECG’s. My episodes last for hours, and I had multiple 12 lead ECG’s during the episodes that didn’t detect the usual spikes of SVT. Everyone’s different.

 

[Allyance]

On the recommendation of my brother who has owned two successful medical electronic development companies, I bought the Kardia EKG for the Apple watch which attached to the band, I could never get a consistent reading with it. It differed from the table top pad with two sensors by using the watch's case case and band as their pads. I sent it back and got a full refund. The Kardia unit my brother uses worked well for him and it picked up his AFIB before any major events could occur. I am lucky that I have never had any AFIB readings. I hope Apple and Alive Corp can work out their differences so they both can provide a vital service.

 

[iLondoner]

Tbh, I’m no patent lawyer, but I was just saying what Apple write in their lawsuit.

Page 2 line 16

For example, in 2008, Apple had already developed and filed for patent protection on specific and foundational technologies pertaining to embedded heart rate and electric cardiac activity monitors.​

​

Page 3 Line 15

Founded in 2010, AliveCor's business has focused on the sale of portable ECG devices which rely on numerous technologies in Apple's iPhone and/or Watch to provide ECG information to AliveCor's customers. Rather than develop its technology from scratch, however, AliveCor resorted to including the very technology that Apple created and patented. This was no accident: AliveCor has long known of Apple's patented technology, as many of AliveCor's own patents cite to many of Apple's patented innovations.​

I don’t pretend to understand the specific patents, and that’s for lawyers and judge/jury to decide. But they’re making a pretty compelling case, but again, that’s what lawyers do, and I bet Apples lawyers are pretty experienced at that.

I have no idea which way they will go.

From the Alivecor Wikipedia page, "The company was co-founded by David Albert, a medical doctor and former chief clinical scientist of cardiology at General Electric, along with scientists Bruce Satchwell and Kim Barnett. Albert began working on ECGs for handheld computers in 1990, when the first palm top computer was released by Hewlett-Packard. He received a 1998 patent, along with Satchwell and Barnett, for wireless transmission of ECGs in handheld devices.

In December 2010, Albert demonstrated a prototype of an iPhone ECG through a YouTube video. After the video received attention from the media, Albert was approached by venture capitalists and industry partners to fund the new company. AliveCor received its first $3 million in financing in 2011."

What's important in my view is not the Alivecor's products for the Apple Watch, but rather the standalone device (as used in the illustration for this article).

 

[dojoman]

Yes I do and personally I’ll trust my cardiologist thanks. It does not always show in ECG’s. My episodes last for hours, and I had multiple 12 lead ECG’s during the episodes that didn’t detect the usual spikes of SVT. Everyone’s different.

That’s interesting. I know a few people with SVT it’s not pleasant and you can see these bursts of beats close to 200 bpm on the readout someone would definitely feel it. It sounds like yours is Afib. Mine never lasted for hrs but few min was exhausting and almost to a point feeling fainted.

 

[steve09090]

From the Alivecor Wikipedia page, "The company was co-founded by David Albert, a medical doctor and former chief clinical scientist of cardiology at General Electric, along with scientists Bruce Satchwell and Kim Barnett. Albert began working on ECGs for handheld computers in 1990, when the first palm top computer was released by Hewlett-Packard. He received a 1998 patent, along with Satchwell and Barnett, for wireless transmission of ECGs in handheld devices.

In December 2010, Albert demonstrated a prototype of an iPhone ECG through a YouTube video. After the video received attention from the media, Albert was approached by venture capitalists and industry partners to fund the new company. AliveCor received its first $3 million in financing in 2011."

What's important in my view is not the Alivecor's products for the Apple Watch, but rather the standalone device (as used in the illustration for this article).

And that thumb type device is what is quoted in the lawsuit.

 

[Pezimak]

That’s interesting. I know a few people with SVT it’s not pleasant and you can see these bursts of beats close to 200 bpm on the readout someone would definitely feel it. It sounds like yours is Afib. Mine never lasted for hrs but few min was exhausting and almost to a point feeling fainted.

Thanks, but unless you are a recognised cardiologist respectfully I think I’ll go with the diagnosis from my cardiologist with nurses if experience and access to all my medical records and test results. SVT attacks can even last a couple of days. It’s different for each person.

 

[David Gor]

Let's remind, Kardia started as the ECG band for AppleWatch, which functionality was "stolen" and added to the next Apple Watch and Helth app 🤗

 

[steve09090]

Let's remind, Kardia started as the ECG band for AppleWatch, which functionality was "stolen" and added to the next Apple Watch and Helth app 🤗

So the Apple Watch band idea predated the patents by Apple? Doubt it. Coming first to market mean’s nothing.

 

[iLondoner]

Let's remind, Kardia started as the ECG band for AppleWatch, which functionality was "stolen" and added to the next Apple Watch and Helth app 🤗

Not true, the 2017 band for the watch came years after the external sensors plate that my wife used in conjunction with her iPhone 6. The 'credit card sized' external device communicated with the iPhone, that was then used to store and analyse signals.

When an Afib episode is confirmed, my wife takes flecanide (a rather dirty drug) and periodically uses the Alivecor device to check when she is back in sinus rhythm.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

That’s some stretch, considering Alivecor was founded in 2011, and Apple didn’t launch its ECG in the Apple Watch till 2018.

Do some research and deeply think upon all the interactive technologies that go into those sensors, up to the interface of the device.

WO2016036582A2 - Physical activity and workout monitor - Google Patents

The present disclosure relates to devices and processes for monitoring attributes of a user's physical activity (e.g., workout) or inactivity, and to user interfaces (e.g., an activity indicator) for displaying the same. In some examples, a device determines whether physical activity corresponds...

patents.google.com

This patent alone is a plethora of patents going back to 2000 that all build off each other, from all sorts of companies, including dozens from Apple that then reference dozens of other patents each.

This one filed in 2008 should give you a clue just how long Apple works on projects before releasing a product.

US8341557B2 - Portable touch screen device, method, and graphical user interface for providing workout support - Google Patents

In some embodiments, a computer-implemented method is performed at a portable electronic device with a touch screen display while the portable electronic device is in a user-interface locked mode of a workout monitoring application with the touch screen display turned off. The method includes...

patents.google.com

 

[joshwest]

I just bought the Kardia 6L recently and I highly recommend it. The device itself and the app work flawlessly and two cardiologists I visited used these in their clinics. I hope this dispute wont result in the app disappearing from the app store

Totally agree - Just turned 40 and had some odd heart issues and seen several cardiologists to get checked out and all of them recommend the Kardia products. They've seen a lot inaccuracies with the Apple Watch ECG's and Heart monitor (I relied on these a lot) and they all have recommended the KardiaMobile or the 6L.

 

[phpmaven]

That’s some stretch, considering Alivecor was founded in 2011, and Apple didn’t launch its ECG in the Apple Watch till 2018.

Not really, a lot of these products that we see today have been in the development pipeline for many years.

 

[Pezimak]

Do some research and deeply think upon all the interactive technologies that go into those sensors, up to the interface of the device.

WO2016036582A2 - Physical activity and workout monitor - Google Patents

The present disclosure relates to devices and processes for monitoring attributes of a user's physical activity (e.g., workout) or inactivity, and to user interfaces (e.g., an activity indicator) for displaying the same. In some examples, a device determines whether physical activity corresponds...

patents.google.com

This patent alone is a plethora of patents going back to 2000 that all build off each other, from all sorts of companies, including dozens from Apple that then reference dozens of other patents each.

This one filed in 2008 should give you a clue just how long Apple works on projects before releasing a product.

US8341557B2 - Portable touch screen device, method, and graphical user interface for providing workout support - Google Patents

In some embodiments, a computer-implemented method is performed at a portable electronic device with a touch screen display while the portable electronic device is in a user-interface locked mode of a workout monitoring application with the touch screen display turned off. The method includes...

patents.google.com

You do realise that a judge has already ruled that Apple has breached Alicecor's patents? So anything you apply to Apple must apply to them, ergo what makes you think they didn't develop their technology before Apple considering it was brought to market first? And readings posts here it seems the founder of Alivecor had been working in portable ECG ideas for years even before Apple filed its patent.

 

[_Spinn_]

Some Fitbits also do ECG. Do they infringe on these patents as well?

 

[steve09090]

You do realise that a judge has already ruled that Apple has breached Alicecor's patents? So anything you apply to Apple must apply to them, ergo what makes you think they didn't develop their technology before Apple considering it was brought to market first? And readings posts here it seems the founder of Alivecor had been working in portable ECG ideas for years even before Apple filed its patent.

Did you read the lawsuit document or even the snippets that were posted or are you just relying or posters opinions that paint just one side of the story?

 

[Pezimak]

Did you read the lawsuit document or even the snippets that were posted or are you just relying or posters opinions that paint just one side of the story?

I based my opinion on the fact the judge made a ruling, a judge who would have heard a court case with both sides of the story and with all the documents presented. That is more reliable then any postings here.
But as said Apples move is to stop Alivecor’s actions.

They both need to be present in the market. Alivecor has a disadvantage anyway in its device, the fact if sells its premium features behind a monthly paywall but an ad vantage if a six lead read, although reading reviews it seems only one lead is used for rhythm analysis. Apple has an advantage though of having an incredibly accurate pulse rate sensor, that will automatically alert you to abnormal heart rates. Although in my case when my near goes from rest to over 180bpm when you’re doing nothing, you tend to feel it!

 

[steve09090]

I based my opinion on the fact the judge made a ruling, a judge who would have heard a court case with both sides of the story and with all the documents presented. That is more reliable then any postings here.
But as said Apples move is to stop Alivecor’s actions.

The Apple side hasn't been ruled on, so as you say, based on facts, but only 1 side of the facts.

I see it as a bargaining ploy by Apple

They both need to be present in the market.

They do not have to be both present in the market.

Alivecor has a disadvantage anyway in its device, the fact if sells its premium features behind a monthly paywall but an ad vantage if a six lead read, although reading reviews it seems only one lead is used for rhythm analysis. Apple has an advantage though of having an incredibly accurate pulse rate sensor, that will automatically alert you to abnormal heart rates. Although in my case when my near goes from rest to over 180bpm when you’re doing nothing, you tend to feel it!

Completely irrelevant but it's a nice story.

 

[mknelson]

News today: The Patent Trial and Appeal Board just ruled 3 of AliveCor's patents as "Unpatentable".

Apple scores victory in dispute over heart monitoring technologies in Apple Watch

In a significant victory, Apple has successfully challenged patents at the center of a high-profile dispute with medical device company AliveCor.

www.statnews.com

 

[Carnegie]

News today: The Patent Trial and Appeal Board just ruled 3 of AliveCor's patents as "Unpatentable".

Apple scores victory in dispute over heart monitoring technologies in Apple Watch

In a significant victory, Apple has successfully challenged patents at the center of a high-profile dispute with medical device company AliveCor.

www.statnews.com

Thanks for posting this.

I just went and looked at those judgments. They find every claim which the ITC ALJ found that Apple had infringed to be unpatentable because they were obvious based on prior art.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

You do realise that a judge has already ruled that Apple has breached Alicecor's patents? So anything you apply to Apple must apply to them, ergo what makes you think they didn't develop their technology before Apple considering it was brought to market first? And readings posts here it seems the founder of Alivecor had been working in portable ECG ideas for years even before Apple filed its patent.

Your comment sure didn't age well. USPTO invalidated quite a few patents by Aliceor as of yesterday.