Apple Accuses Epic Games of 'Willful, Brazen, and Unlawful Conduct' in Countersuit Asking for Breach of Contract Damages

[cmaier]

Well, like I said, they should have moved to dismiss if this case is as open-and-shut as the other person was describing it. But it’s not actually quite that simple.

I disagree. And the judge seemed to suggest so as well. But there’s a difference between a case being open and shut and there being a procedural way to get rid of it.

I can file a complaint against you tomorrow that says “jonblatho is a Russian agent who follows me around and pokes me with sticks.”. There is obviously no basis for it at all. Open and shut. You can prove you’ve never been near me.

A motion to dismiss would fail, because the court has to assume everything i said is true, and then decide whether me being poked with sticks is something i can sue for.

It’s at the motion for summary judgment stage where the court can look more closely at the allegations.

 

[Mainyehc]

Damn, the gloves are OFF. Let me just grab my popcorn and enjoy the crapfest (the entire thing: the legal side of it and everyone’s reaction).

Heh, it seems I ended up getting it wrong about Apple being a softy in all this or needing Steve at all for the falling-out phase (though I still stand by my words in that he would’ve gone nuclear enough with Sweeney in private for the dude to wisen up in time to stop himself from destroying his company and/or his career, and in that, Steve or no Steve, it will indeed be more fun to watch now – not 10x more, because no one compares to him, but still):

[snip]
Call Apple greedy all you like, but about the only thing you can’t call them in this particular case is heavy-handed (no, really; you lot seem to forget how Steve Jobs nixed partnerships with a lot of companies over extremely milder stuff by comparison, and if he was still alive, this s***show would be 10x more fun to watch or wouldn’t even have happened in the first place, as he’d have ripped Sweeney a new one – or at least strongly hinted at that – right after the first side letter, I can pretty much guarantee you that).
[/snip]

As for the countersuit, well, I literally called it almost three weeks ago:

[snip]
Not only any sane judge could and should throw away the case altogether, as it was filed in blatantly bad faith (even if some regulator/watchdog ends up investigating Apple over this; that’s an entirely different matter), Apple might even be able to countersue Epic for damages, libel, etc. And I suspect they will, eventually and especially if some sort of agreement isn’t quickly reached (in fact, if Steve was alive, I am damn sure they would, or at least he would pen one of his famously curt and scathing open letters).
[/snip]

And I did warn all of you Epic/anti-Apple-fanboy fanboys that you’d be eating that claim chowder one day, too (no need to quote myself on that one). Expect more of these to come.

 

[123]

As a consumer I like having more choice (the choice of a walled garden

Ah, the classic a single choice is also a choice argument.

 

[123]

The truth is it was probably beneficial for both parties. Epic showed what an iPhone could do and Apple showed what a creative developer could do.

And both got their cut too. Nowadays only Apple is benefitting from it, hence the dispute.

 

[Rogifan]

Yes they are. Though this is 100% free games that have zero IAP of any kind. The 30% from IAP helps pay for iOS and the app store so that's not mooching.

Though the number of totally free apps is way smaller compared to the larger number of free to download but stuffed full of IAP apps.

Well Apple allows free apps. Apple allows someone to download Instagram and not pay a thing for it (or in-app). Does Apple consider that mooching or do they consider that making the iPhone more valuable/desirable? Does the 30% go to paying for the App Store or is it rent Apple is charging to access iPhone owners? When I spend $1000 on a new iPhone what is that paying for? We know the hardware alone isn’t $1000. Even hardware + R&D doesn’t equal $1000.

Yes, and Apple it seems to me, is fine with that. The same way Apple is fine, if one mooches off their free icloud 5gb tier without purchasing an upgrade for more storage. But you have to realize a dev that uploads a free app to the app store, still did pay $99/year so in essence there is no mooching. It's a $99 buffet of all you can eat apps for upload, with potentially additional revenue through IAP.

In this filing Apple admitted it’s about money (for both sides). Epic doesn’t want to pay 30% and Apple thinks it‘s entitled to that rent. When the whole Basecamp/Hey thing erupted Apple said:

“We understand that Basecamp has developed a number of apps and many subsequent versions for the App Store for many years, and that the App Store has distributed millions of these apps to iOS users. These apps do not offer in-app purchase — and, consequently, have not contributed any revenue to the App Store over the last eight years,”

There’s no way to read that statement other than Apple thinks it deserves a cut of 3rd party developer business. Apple execs believe if you have an app on the App Store they’re partially responsible for your success and deserve a percentage of your revenues. But if you’re a big enough company and threaten to leave (or have something Apple wants) then you can get around paying Apple.

 

[Arran]

And both got their cut too. Nowadays only Apple is benefitting from it, hence the dispute.

Who's getting the other 70% then?

 

[spazzcat]

iOS is not the same as Steam, Xbox, PS etc despite what you and others wish were true. How do I know? Simple.

1. Where can I get games for my pc, Xbox, PS, Switch etc?

2. Where can I get games for my iPhone, iPad iPod Touch?

Apple's app store monopoly is coming apart at the seams and deservedly so.

Well to your first point, if you buy a game in the store the developer is losing a lot more then 30%, it more like 40-50%, so there is that I guess...

 

[I7guy]

iOS is not the same as Steam, Xbox, PS etc despite what you and others wish were true. How do I know? Simple.

1. Where can I get games for my pc, Xbox, PS, Switch etc?

2. Where can I get games for my iPhone, iPad iPod Touch?

Apple's app store monopoly is coming apart at the seams and deservedly so.

I have a Samsung TV, where can I download apps for the TV? I have a Costco membership, where can I buy Kirkland products? That's why the app store isn't a monopoly and probably will stand the test of all legal challenges.

 

[aerohunter]

Epic is like saying.. go buy the game at Bestbuy, Walmart, or any store. But DO NOT PAY the store, pay EPIC directly to avoid the store's cut.

 

[4jasontv]

When I spend $1000 on a new iPhone what is that paying for? We know the hardware alone isn’t $1000. Even hardware + R&D doesn’t equal $1000.

The phone. The value of something does not equal the cost. Apple could make the iPhone 12 for $50 and still justify a $1200 price. Products are not bound to some 'fair' markup. They don't have to justify their profit margin to you, all they have to do is convince you that the final price you pay is worth it.

 

[Naraxus]

I'll bet you can't actually define which laws you think are being broken here. Love to see you quote a District or Supreme Court case where this is clarified, or the legal statute in question.

I feel safe in this bet because you keep throwing around the word "monopoly" like it's some amazing term that proves your point.

I'll give you a hand: Apple vs Pystar.

I've already given you an example which you conveniently ignored

 

[4jasontv]

eating that claim chowder

I want to start using this phrase more.

 

[TiggrToo]

I've already given you an example which you conveniently ignored

If you did give an example to me then I did not "deliberatly" ignore it. You ever stop to think it may have just been missed?

Please point me to the post in question and I'll respond to it.

 

[BaracksPhallusPalace]

I hope this causes epic to fail publicly, lose massive amounts of revenue, and begin killing off fortnite's long term viability. Maybe then epic will go back to developing actually good games that they abandoned like Unreal Tournament.

 

[TiggrToo]

I've already given you an example which you conveniently ignored

I've gone back through all my notifications going back as far as Sunday - I see no reply to me from you until this one.

So, care to point me to this post if yours because I'm not seeing it.

 

[AZREOSpecialist]

You can't win a lawsuit based upon the non-existent legal doctrine of "it's the right thing to do." Epic fail.

 

[manu chao]

And both got their cut too. Nowadays only Apple is benefitting from it, hence the dispute.

Epic is not making profits from its products on the iOS platform?

 

[Lounge vibes 05]

i’m sorry, but speaking as an Apple customer, who has a family of very non-techie people, the walled garden approach is one of the main things that attracted all of us to Apple.
If they need an app, they go to the App Store. download an app on their phone, and it immediately appears on their iPad and their Apple TV.
Want to buy something within that app? They don’t have to put in any credit card information or nothing, because it bills directly through their Apple account, the exact same way they downloaded the app.
And all of my family members at one point had an android phone, and hated it for this reason. their phones came with a Samsung store, a Google store, a Motorola store, a Google calendar, Samsung calendar, etc. They came with three different versions of each app, none of them are removable, and it was extremely inconvenient and confusing for them to use.
Meanwhile, the iPhone comes with one App Store. One way to download apps. That’s it. It’s amazing, it’s simple, and it’s the approach that we prefer.
So for everyone saying that the iPhone should open up and basically just become android, you’re wrong. If you want an android, go buy an android.
Some of us love the single secure app distribution system.
We don’t wanna have to download google apps from the Google App Store, Apple apps from the Apple App Store, fortnight from the epic App Store, outlook from the Microsoft store, etc.
We just go to the App Store, and it has everything that we need. If we need outlook, it’s there. If we need fortnight, well... it was there.
If we need Google Drive, it’s there.
If we need some obscure app that no one has ever heard of, it’s on the App Store. We don’t have to download some file from some website, or download one App Store to open that App Store to download another App Store, it would just be an absolute mess.
Also, I don’t know why no one is pointing this out, but it is completely legal to jailbreak your iPhone. Yes, it void your warranty, but it’s not illegal. So technically, there is another way to get apps on the iPhone.
On top of this, there are things like AltStore that exist.
But do you know why people don’t use these? Because The average consumer has no idea about them. And that’s exactly how it would be if Apple allowed alternate app stores or sideloading on the iPhone.
I was in high school when fortnight first became available on the iPhone, and it started as a test flight beta. I remember tons of people at my school bragging that they got into the test flight beta, where everyone else didn’t. That was an Apple thing. It was a secure, safe way to beta test an application. an epic got tons of people to sign up for it.
when it became available on the App Store, it’s shot to number one.
All of this would not have been possible without the App Store. So I have no idea why they are complaining.

 

[kingfish78]

If Epic was doing this "just for the money", they would have reverted to Apple payment in Fortnite for the time being.
They are in it for something much deeper and fundamental than just for the money, a war against walled gardens.

No. They're just in it to crate their own walled garden - the Epic game store. They already implement their own "anti-competitive" practices with that system. It's not really about the 30% Epic pays Apple, it's about all the other 30% cuts that Epic can collect for themselves for developers that they can move to their Epic game store.

 

[SteveSparks]

All the platform makers - have app stores that charge a fee. It's a very consumer-focused and safe environment.

Apple
Amazon
Google
Microsoft
Samsung
etc

It's not anti-trade unless all the stored get together and conspire. We can see the differences in each ecosystem. Since each one is different, then a software vendor has a choice to use the platform or not use the platform. Epic can choose to focus on everyone but Apple. The problem is that the billions are on Apple's platform. Apple chooses not to scale the pricing based on sales and use. I can see both sides of the challenges since fewer sales, can cost less while more means more testing and support.

 

[Anson_431]

Well, to be fair Epic is asking the court to void the contract (actually, sever certain terms I believe) as being against public policy and therefore illegal, and voidable. (Judges won’t won’t order a party to perform illegal contract terms. In California iirc there’s a large bias in favor of the judge minimally modifying the contract to make it legal, as opposed to voiding the entire contract.)

But is it illegal? As the record develops, Epic may be able to convince the judge that they have a sufficiently high likelihood of prevailing on the merits of their case (and other requirements that would be necessary) that the judge should grant the preliminary injunction Epic is seeking.

But it seems likely that Epic won’t be able to meet the bar by 28 September, and will not be able to force themselves back in the App Store. If Epic does ultimately win, damages can be calculated and Apple will have to pay up.

Well that’s my understanding anyway, IANAL.

Hmmmmm that's really something to consider when reading up on this lawsuit...... Sure opened my eye.

Man, I do wish more comments are like yours, which is informative, reasonable and encouraging a healthy discussion......

 

[123]

Who's getting the other 70% then?

Those who create the product/service people pay for?

 

[123]

Epic is not making profits from its products on the iOS platform?

It's also running on a device using ARM chip designs. How much is going to SoftBank?

 

[the8thark]

Does Apple consider that mooching or do they consider that making the iPhone more valuable/desirable? Does the 30% go to paying for the App Store or is it rent Apple is charging to access iPhone owners? When I spend $1000 on a new iPhone what is that paying for? We know the hardware alone isn’t $1000. Even hardware + R&D doesn’t equal $1000.

Yes Apple does consider that mooching. However Apple are willing to subsidise them willingly as you said above. Apple is being the nice corporation with this kind gesture.

Also you know it's - Hardware + R&D + a little subsidising of the OS development + profit = your $1000
The 30% is - the upkeep of the app store + part of the R&D for the OS. The leftover is profit.

You're a smart fellow. I know you are totally aware of what I'm saying, so I'm saying it for others who might not know this.

 

[kingfish78]

Here’s the thing... Having been on the side of one of those “exclusivity” contracts... You can absolutely give keys to whomever for any reason on any platform. They are treated as promotional keys, and in exchange you pay the contracted split. You can then grandfather existing customers into the new contract free of charge.

If a developer had morals, they would uphold their promises to their customers and to their contracted partners. Just offer customers a choice if they genuinely want Steam over Epic, and then just pay the promotional keys rate to Epic. More often than not, they see the dollar signs and would rather keep every dollar for themselves and say “but we gave you what you purchased!”

Sounds like just the sort of work around that Epic doesn't want to do for itself.