Apple Addresses Alleged Throttling of iPhones With Degraded Batteries

[Analog Kid]

Yep, a real 'atta boy' with NO ulterior motive at all, right?

Right.

This isn't thermal throttling at all.

The comment I was responding to was thermal throttling.

when you bought your phone could your battery run it at full power?

apple batteries are incapable of running their phones at original frequencies after about a year of use.

How is that not a defective product?

In the same way it’s not defective to engage traction control when you hydroplane on worn tires.

 

[wdwpsu]

Would using a mophie case alleviate the issue? Would having it always plugged in alleviate the issue?
If something triggers a phone to go in to this underclocked mode - aside from replacing the battery - can something trigger it into thinking the battery is fine again to go back to normal performance?

 

[scottinlexky]

I have a 6s, which is actually a replacement to the one which drowned after a canoe trip this summer. the battery
in this phone drains mighty quickly, and is slow as hell to recharge. As others have noted, Apple is quickly fading on my radar. I feel no loyalty to any one company. I just want the best tools and devices for my dollar. Im actually considering buying a surface pro 2 notebook to replace my MBP.

 

[gwaizai]

The better option for Apple - Use removable battery.

Better option for us consumers you mean.

We accept the limitations of current battery technology;
So design the phone so that the we can replace the battery ourselves.

Imagine buying a new car, and at year two it can only run at half speed
and being told either: get used to it or buy a new one.

 

[2IS]

All Intel and AMD chips, in every PC and laptop for the past 10 or so years, control the processor clock speed though software (hidden in the x86 chip's power management controller). So does every other major mobile phone processor chip for the past many years. No matter how much "speed" they advertise.

They even brag with presentations at the various major semiconductor and chip conferences about how clever their speed and power management stuff works.

Yes they do. Now let me know if you’re clueless enough to have me or someone else explain to you the difference between that and what’s happening here. I’ll check back shortly in anticipation of your reply. Please quote my reply so I get the notification.

Thanks

 

[firewood]

“Apple then added power management to all iPhones at the time that would 'smooth out' those peaks by either capping the power available from the battery or by spreading power requests over several cycles.”

Spreading power requests over cycles? WTF are they talking about?... the phones are being underclocked, which makes each cycle a little slower.

Very hard to tell or measure. A mobile phone processor core is designed to run fast for a short burst and then spend a lot of time powered down, every few milliseconds. Apple could be playing with the max length of the fast burst or changing the nap time between burst to be a bit longer, either or both of which could be done without lowering the clock speed. A higher processor clock speed allows a task unit to "race to sleep" faster, thus nap longer, thus potentially saving more power than running the clock too slow.

Thus, synthetic benchmarks are very possibly measuring the wrong thing with respect to typical user app responsiveness.

 

[hipsheik]

Yeah. Just look at how many of the top 10 selling non-Apple mobile phones have user replaceable batteries. Customers must be demanding such by buying so many.

Wasn't Apple the company that started the whole movement away from user replaceable batteries?

Not only has Apple significantly slowed down their devices, but they did so behind their customer's backs! It's stunning that a $700 iPhone released 2 years ago can be slower than a near vintage iPhone 4.

How is this remotely acceptable?

I would expect Apple to offer free battery replacements, or at the very least half priced, but they have continued charging $80 for a battery replacement (as if a 2 year old, $700 product should be expected to have such ridiculous issues)

I agree, they should've have lowered the price on the battery replacement if they knew this was a big issue. But the bean counters got in the way.

I think the 6s reached a point where it was fast enough for a lot of people. I definitely wasn't going to throw mine away after 1.5 years of use because of the battery draining so quickly. It should have a longer shelf life than that.

I noticed I'm already trying to be conservative using my 8 plus before this news even came out, because I realized how much of a difference a new battery made with my 6s.

 

[Mc0]

Alternate reality headline:

Greedy Apple displays popups scaring users into buying expensive battery replacements, rage ensues.

You may also add “Apple’s nasty secret”

 

[citi]

Apple designs phone with a bad battery, user should pay to get a new one.

?? You'd still need to buy a new battery if it went bad in a traditional cell phone, and for the most part, it costs the same amount. It's actually not that serious. Everyone is going battery glued, soldered in.

 

[jeremiah256]

Well, realistically, I'm not leaving the iOS ecosystem any time soon. So if this is nefarious, or they did some analysis that said this tactic would net them 100B profit with only 10B potential downside, it's in my best interest for Apple to be slapped back to the light-side of the path.

 

[Altis]

Nothing. Why— are Apples competitors paying you to kick up dust about the simple fact that batteries age?

Holy smokes, batteries aging is not the issue.

Though I'm sure you know that at this point.

 

[opfreak]

Nothing. Why— are Apples competitors paying you to kick up dust about the simple fact that batteries age?

Typically when batteries age, products still run as normal but for a shorter period of time.

Apple products when batteries age either turn off, or run at 1/2 speed.

Its also nut dust. Until apple got caught they never offered up this information. Please show me a presentation before today that apple put out that described this behavior?

This behavior started with ios10, 6s launched with ios 9. If these batteries and phones are running normally as you claim, why did apple add this new secret low performance mode AFTER?

Cook told me that your check is in the mail.
[doublepost=1513830570][/doublepost]

?? You'd still need to buy a new battery if it went bad in a traditional cell phone, and for the most part, it costs the same amount. It's actually not that serious. Everyone is going battery glued, soldered in.

Do other phones slow down the CPU as batteries age?

When the 6s launched with ios9 the phone didn't slow down as batteries aged. The slow down was added post launch, and in secret.

 

[PickUrPoison]

yes but they provide more "ass" to keep the voltage (potential) at a constant value

Don’t snip my posts down to one sentence, out of context, before you respond. It’s bad form.

Battery modules large or small degrade. It’s an inherent problem with Li-ion chemistry, and larger batteries aren’t immune.

 

[Analog Kid]

Holy smokes, batteries aging is not the issue.

I’m not sure what you think the issue is— you replied to my post about thermal throttling in CPUs and now my response to someone who keeps complaining that their aging battery doesn’t let the run as fast as it did when it was new...

 

[ersan191]

Better option for us consumers you mean.

We accept the limitations of current battery technology;
So design the phone so that the we can replace the battery ourselves.

Imagine buying a new car, and at year two it can only run at half speed
and being told either: get used to it or buy a new one.

Actually, this is sort of how cars work, they lose a significant amount of power and efficiency/gas mileage over time. But it takes longer than 2 years. You can replace the engine (or parts of the engine) to fix it, much like replacing the battery on the phone.

 

[PickUrPoison]

then you screwed up the design, but even if it is high enough its only gonna be high enough for so long until battery depletes.

It’s not a matter of bad design, it’s Li-ion battery chemistry. They degrade. Depending on discharge characteristics, environmental factors, charging methods and other reasons, at some point they’ll need to be replaced.

 

[Technarchy]

The part about "Apple offers battery replacement in stores" is not really true. I've gone twice to an Apple store to have them assess my battery. They refused to let me pay them to replace the battery because their diagnostics passed.

I'm in the situation where Apple won't even let me pay to replace my battery even though I have random shut downs and blatant CPU throttling when below 50%.

You’re absolutely right. I should be able to walk into any Apple store and replace my battery even if their diagnostic software says I don’t need to.

My choice, my phone, my money.

Unless the goal is to keep you in a degraded battery so you’ll feel inclined to get a new phone for that snappy new feeling of a fresh device.

 

[SteveJUAE]

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/sale-of-goods-act

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-complaints-official-guarantee-expires.html

https://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/

The above shows Under consumer laws in the UK, consumers are entitled to a free of charge repair or replacement, discount or refund by the seller, of defective goods or goods which do not conform with the contract of sale. For goods purchased in England or Wales, these rights expire six years from delivery of the goods.

If they do that, I’ll seek advise.

Whilst UK and Europe have some of the best consumer rights it's not plain sailing with these issues

Firstly within the warranty period you should have no issues, but it seems Apple may well only test a battery in isolation as they would consider performance throttling a normal feature, so you will likely be refused based on this alone

Secondly with battery issues due to the inherent nature of their design it would be hard to prove it was outwith normal specifications especially as Apple actually state very little about performance and/or has disclaimers.

Should you not be satisfied with Apple handling of your issue within the first 6 months of ownership there is no burden of proof on your part you just have to be certain it is not conforming with terms of purchase/sale. Post 6 months the burden of proof that the defect was their from the beginning is shifted to you.

I would suggest you start documenting before and after records now if you may wish to claim sometime in the future. Additionally threads like this and others are a rich source of documenting that others are also experiencing issues that the court would take in to consideration, if numerous enough, else you may be left with getting independent lab report that may well be expensive.

I think Apple have a large amount of wiggle room to stifle most claims and would not be as straight forward as say with a defective keyboard for example

Proving that Apple have degraded your phone pass acceptable levels compared to original purchased performance via an update that you have agreed to the T&C's is a lot harder IMO

Although you never know with EU law if they consider it was unfair disclosure not to note in the small print that "performance may vary with battery condition" then it could be plain sailing for refunds/exchanges, unless its already in the small print

 

[slappypig]

It absolutely does not take 10-15 seconds for that phone to open the camera app. I’ll eat my shoe if you show credible evidence.

“10-15 seconds” sounded good when you typed it, but that’s undoubtedly an exaggeration. Seriously - count to 15 in your head right now. That’s ridiculous. I’d bet it’s actually around 5 seconds, but just feels much longer because we’re used to these phones being so fast nowadays.

If her 6/6S plus takes that long to perform such a basic task, there’s larger issues at play than just performance throttling secondary to a degraded battery.

I’ll take a video in the Afternoon and show you. Get plenty of salt for that shoe.

 

[Analog Kid]

Typically when batteries age, products still run as normal but for a shorter period of time.

Apple products when batteries age either turn off, or run at 1/2 speed.

Its also nut dust. Until apple got caught they never offered up this information. Please show me a presentation before today that apple put out that described this behavior?

This behavior started with ios10, 6s launched with ios 9. If these batteries and phones are running normally as you claim, why did apple add this new secret low performance mode AFTER?

You over estimate your understanding of technology... Typically when rechargeable batteries age they both lose capacity and see an increase in internal resistance. Lower capacity affects runtime. Internal resistance affects the voltage drop under load. Pulling current across that higher internal resistance both reduces the voltage available to the system and heats the battery pack— neither is good. I’m pretty sure this has been explained.

In effect, what you are complaining about is that Apple didn’t anticipate the increased internal resistance and throttle their processor on launch to match the lower performance of a two year old phone in cold weather.

There are a million engineering decisions that Apple doesn’t need to explain. This wasn’t secret, they made reference to it in the release notes. The fact you first saw this on Reddit followed by a chain of snarky hipster comments doesn’t mean you’ve uncovered a conspiracy. There are a million engineering decisions that Apple makes that they don’t need to explain. This one prevents my phone from restarting when I turn the camera on or in the middle of a video conference call, which I greatly appreciate. I’m an adult. I can handle the fact that things start to slow down as they age.

Cook says your check is in the mail

Please tell us how much apple is paying you to shill for them.

Cook told me that your check is in the mail.

I feel for you. You’re obviously flustered by this. You keep repeating yourself...

 

[rootee]

Very hard to tell or measure. A mobile phone processor core is designed to run fast for a short burst and then spend a lot of time powered down, every few milliseconds. Apple could be playing with the max length of the fast burst or changing the nap time between burst to be a bit longer, either or both of which could be done without lowering the clock speed. A higher processor clock speed allows a task unit to "race to sleep" faster, thus nap longer, thus potentially saving more power than running the clock too slow.

Thus, synthetic benchmarks are very possibly measuring the wrong thing with respect to typical user app responsiveness.

One very effective way to reduce “peak” current load from a CPU is to reduce the clock rate. All of the microprocessors I write software for will run at the current clock multiplier rate, and only sleep when the phone is doing nothing, like when the screen is off and all background activity is idle.

 

[NervousFish2]

So is there any way to obtain info about how many charge cycles I have on my phone?
[doublepost=1513832464][/doublepost]

So it seems that Apple rather have the phone slow down a bit than have it shut off completely.

Im not sure how I feel about this, I think Apple has to give a notification to the user. The user may just think he/she needs a new phone as apposed to just a new battery for $79 or free.

But doesn’t the article say that you DO actually get a notification?

 

[firewood]

Apple never specified a processor clock speed number. They specified so and so many hours of run-time under some specified typical usage conditions. Look on their web site for many examples of this product specification.

So if changing the processor clocking helps an iPhone stay closer to the run-time numbers listed in their product specification after typical Li-ion battery aging, and not shutting down early, Apple might actually be improving their devices performance as measured against their documented specification, not reducing it.

Geekbench numbers posted on MacRumors are most likely not a legally binding product specification. Caveat Emptor.

 

[rootee]

Would using a mophie case alleviate the issue? Would having it always plugged in alleviate the issue?
If something triggers a phone to go in to this underclocked mode - aside from replacing the battery - can something trigger it into thinking the battery is fine again to go back to normal performance?

When my iPhone 6 CPU goes down to 1127 MHz due to this software “fix” (from the max 1400 MHz), plugging in to a charger does nothing, and the phone continues to be underclocked. Why would Apple do this? Why wouldn’t they automatically boost back up to full speed when plugged in? My only guess is that they are trying to mask the performance delta, and “provide a smoother user experience that Apple customers demand from their iphones.” They’re explanation for this software change doesn’t add up; something’s up.
[doublepost=1513833212][/doublepost]

Apple never specified a processor clock speed number. They specified so and so many hours of run-time under some specified typical usage conditions. Look on their web site for many examples of this product specification.

So if changing the processor clocking helps an iPhone stay closer to the run-time numbers listed in their product specification after typical Li-ion battery aging, and not shutting down early, Apple might actually be improving their devices performance as measured against their documented specification, not reducing it.

Geekbench numbers posted on MacRumors are most likely not a legally binding product specification. Caveat Emptor.

iOS bloat adds more and more processing burden as new versions get released, that is definitely felt on older hardware. Now you can add this intentional performance degradation. I can definitely feel the effects on my iPhone 6, which runs iOS 11 fairly smoothly at 1400 MHz, and chunkily at 1127 MHz. Apple basically said that we’re going to run your phone on low power mode whether you like it or not.

 

[C DM]

When my iPhone 6 CPU goes down to 1127 MHz due to this software “fix” (from the max 1400 MHz), plugging in to a charger does nothing, and the phone continues to be underclocked. Why would Apple do this? Why wouldn’t they automatically boost back up to full speed when plugged in? My only guess is that they are trying to mask the performance delta, and “provide a smoother user experience that Apple customers demand from their iphones.” They’re explanation for this software change doesn’t add up; something’s up.
[doublepost=1513833212][/doublepost]
iOS bloat adds more and more processing burden as new versions get released, that is definitely felt on older hardware. Now you can add this intentional performance degradation. I can definitely feel the effects on my iPhone 6, which runs iOS 11 fairly smoothly at 1400 MHz, and chunkily at 1127 MHz. Apple basically said that we’re going to run your phone on low power mode whether you like it or not.

But people using Low Power Mode generally don't complain of crippling performance degradation.