Apple Addresses CSAM Detection Concerns, Will Consider Expanding System on Per-Country Basis

[giggles]

Well. Clearly you dont understand how hash works. Knowing the hash from the database you can easily manipulate catbpics to be flagged. You have enough flags and have cops at your doors. It can be your son photos or gf photos …

Are we seriously arguing all day that this particular system revealed to the world that “stuff can be hashed and hashes can be compared, so now the cat is out of the bag, anything goes, slippery slopes are being buttered as we speak”?

There’s nothing really “new” here, technically.
And no backdoor.
Apple already diced and sliced photos, scanned them via AI, hashed sound bits, etc.
Dictators already knew all of this was technically feasible.
The only misconception here is people thinking Apple will report them to the cops automatically or something.

 

[sw1tcher]

Why would that mean users can't get upset if Apple implement features they don't agree with? Your logic makes no sense.

I'm tell you the responses we get when people like myself say that Apple should allow side loading and 3rd party app stores.

They tell us to stop whining, that if we don't like the way Apple does things then it's too bad and to buy an Android based smartphone instead.

Well, I'm now telling them "Too bad. If you don't like Apple's decision, buy a different smartphone."

I'm giving them a taste of their own medicine.

 

[q64ceo]

 

[giggles]

Breaking news: hashes of stuff could be used to compare stuff against stuff if a government pressured a company to look for that stuff.


It is advisable to never hash anything, otherwise slippery slopes ensue.


That’s 90% of takes today.

 

[Mydel]

Are you saying the secure enclave CHIP which encrypts all your personal files on iPhone is useless?

it is the secure enclave which removes end to end encryption on your iphone photos because YOU as a user CHOSE to use iCloud. you have a choice to completely lock down your device OR you can use iCloud photos and let Apple scan files for child sexual exploitation. Apple is giving you a choice here. you dont need to turn on iCloud photos if you don't want to. It is not even turned on by default.

you have to first opt in to iCloud

THEN

you have to opt in to CSAM

there are 2 levels of opt in before your files are scanned.

do people think Apple is FORCING users to scan the files? are we that dumb as iPhone users?

Correct me if im wrong but there is no opting in…IF you use the icloud photo it will scan. No option here. And still that is not the point. Point is if this than what…

 

[siddavis]

This site is full of folks who sound like Republicans claiming that their personal freedom is being harmed in an attempt to do the right thing.

We must do our best to remove these images from circulation. This is a good idea. But no, people are crapping on it because FREEDUM!

We can debate if this is a "good/bad idea", or if the ends are good/bad. But the means matter too. [From a US perspective] This country needs a real refresher on the history and construction of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, positive and negative liberty, and what it actually means to be free. The construct of this country's government is NOT that it PROVIDES people/citizens with rights, but that they are automatically granted and inalienable. Read the Constitution... it is constantly stating what the government CANNOT do. Fourth Amendment.

Now, I'm not suggesting that Apple should not be allowed to do this as a (strictly) private company. The lines are blurred as they become an agent of the state, policing, in ways that the government might be forbidden to do directly themselves. This is where I personally have a problem because we've seen numerous times recently that the government is very welcome to have big tech do the end-around for them. When so much power is consolidated by so few, yes, I am concerned about my "FREEDUM". (by the way, also for yours by extension)

 

[hasanahmad]

Correct me if im wrong but there is no opting in…IF you use the icloud photo it will scan. No option here. And still that is not the point. Point is if this than what…

it IS opt in. First you OPT to chose icloud, then you opt in chose CSAM as step 2

 

[giggles]

We need to ban any kind of on-device picture analysis because the company making it could be pressured into using it for censorship.

Such analysis should only happen in the cloud where no censorship can occur, or at least users can opt-out of it by using their devices like offline paperweights wrapped in tinfoil.



Wait, what-

 

[hasanahmad]

I updated my image to reflect Macrumors average freak out user

 

[canyonblue737]

Well. Clearly you dont understand how hash works. Knowing the hash from the database you can easily manipulate catbpics to be flagged. You have enough flags and have cops at your doors. It can be your son photos or gf photos …

but you aren't understanding how apple says their system works. yes... hash will be how they compare images to the database, and perhaps you are right and "cat pics" can be manipulated to match the hash from known child abuse images as a horrible gag... BUT a human being at Apple would then view the actual images on your account BEFORE contacting law enforcement and see they are just cat pictures. further i'm sure they would see the images have manipulated hash's in them and their database would stop looking for those manipulated hashs.

 

[Khedron]

Wonder how many politicians will get caught with this?

I wonder what type of resources this will take on my phone. Will it slow things down? Will it use much battery. How much data of mine will it use?

You’re not allowed to know how big the database is. You’re not allowed to know how often it updates. You’re not allowed to know which of your photos have been flagged. You’re not allowed to know how many flags until the police are called.

 

[siddavis]

Why are we still pretending privacy is the thing in 2021?

Maybe because Tim Apple told us, "Privacy is a fundamental human right" and then sold it to us as a feature of their products.
I don't disagree with your examples where we have let go of privacy. Though I think many of those are stupid too. I guess that means I'm just supposed to submit?

 

[giggles]

You’re not allowed to know how big the database is. You’re not allowed to know how often it updates. You’re not allowed to know which of your photos have been flagged. You’re not allowed to know how many flags until the police are called.

The last one is just “stuff can happen”.

Means nothing.

Apple will not robocall the police automatically.

Your case will be reviewed again and again before actually reporting you.

Can’t happen by accident or carelessly by Apple.

 

[giggles]

Won’t anybody think of the poor pedos with multiple (one isn’t enough) pictures matching the hashes of the CP database?

Is it fair for them to be reported by the cloud service they’re trying to upload their super illegal pics to?

Life’s so unfair.

 

[hagar]

so, 1 person will be misidentified in the year 2020.

i stand by my statement, you have a higher chance of winning the lottery.

No no no. 1 photo will be misidentified. A minimum threshold of photos is required before an account is flagged and an inquiry is started. it’s not like a person will be wrongfully convicted to jail Because of 1 pic. Have you seen the sizes of these CSAM collections?

 

[Aoligei]

Maybe because Tim Apple told us, "Privacy is a fundamental human right" and then sold it to us as a feature of their products.
I don't disagree with your examples where we have let go of privacy. Though I think many of those are stupid too. I guess that means I'm just supposed to submit?

Do you have any choice? As soon as you connect to internet, you are bond to be tracked and monitored.

I mean your ISP probably have all the activities on internet. You can do VPN, but even that is not foul proof.

We are going down to this rabbit hole deep enough. iOS 15 has digital wallet, digital keycard, digital car fob etc. We are more and more relying on connected everything.

Does those technologies improve our life and make things easier, absolutely. But what if you lost your phone? What if you have all your digital life hooked up with phone and software running on that phone has secrete backdoor to track everything you do?

You will never know.

 

[giggles]

Apple should implement a “don’t ask don’t tell” policy about such hobbies.

Not their business.

/s

 

[canyonblue737]

The last one is just “stuff can happen”.

Means nothing.

Apple will not robocall the police automatically.

Your case will be reviewed again and again before actually reporting you.

Can’t happen by accident or carelessly by Apple.

this i agree with. that's why apple has a final layer where a human reviews the images (puke, what a horrible job) before contacting law enforcement. i think apple knows if they call the cops on a single innocent person who just has pictures of their son or daughter in a bath tub or at the beach the hellstorm it will bring on their company would be unimaginable. no way they are calling the cops unless you are absolutely positively a sicko who deserves to be thrown in jail and the key thrown away.

the bigger issue is this IS a backdoor, they promised (and still do right on apple.com in a pledge) to NEVER create backdoors because they admit it can be abused. if every single one of your photos is hashed and stored on icloud then at some point you have to trust that apple won't look for DIFFERENT kinds of photos, perhaps an "inappropriate" meme or political photo etc. to lump you into the "undesirables" or something. i know it seems far fetched but apple refused to create backdoors to help get data from known terrorists trying to attack us citizens on our own soil so they seemed pretty staunch but suddenly now they say it is ok... well shoot, it is worth looking into.

 

[Nuvi]

This was my response.
View attachment 1815622
It's not a whole lot, but it was all I had.

I also have investments in Apple. From a investment standpoint normally compromises in privacy lead into enhancements in monetisation of user data. However, in this case Apple is just destroying their credibility in their product and services marketing without any gains. If this becomes a trend then this will have strong effect on consumer confidence in Apple products. However, before that happens AAPL takes a dive and I don’t want to be part of it. I truly hope Apple gets rid of those who came up with this moronic plan and goes back to guarding user privacy.

 

[giggles]

Anybody here is good with statistics and boolean logic?

Let’s suppose the threshold to raise a red flag is 10 offences, and the hashes have 1 millionth chance of a false positive (it’s probably even smaller), what are the odds of getting 10 false positives by sheer unluckiness?

 

[Act3]

If we’re talking iMessage, you would have to press and hold to “Save Photo” from the Message app so it ends up in the Photos app, afterwards it would be uploaded to iCloud Photo Library, before that it would be checked against the hashes.
What happens in Messages, stays in Messages, if you don’t actively save the pics.

Now, Messages conversations (including all the pics they contain) are backed up to iCloud, but that doesn’t count for this system.

This particular system (hash match -> multiple offences -> human review -> maybe Apple reports you, maybe not) applies to
- iCloud Photo Library

It doesn’t apply to
- iCloud Backup of Messages app data
- iCloud Backup of Photos app data
- My Photo Stream album

Apple has confirmed that if you disable iCloud Photo Library, the system won’t be enabled.

Like I said , malicious. No telling what hackers can do. I prefer to use iCloud photo for ease of having all my photos easily accessible on all my devices. iPad , iPhone and pc.

 

[Aoligei]

Apple should implement a “don’t ask don’t tell” policy about such hobbies.

Not their business.

/s

They can very well be accused of facilitating spreading of child pornography.

I mean photo was taken on iPhone, uploaded through iPhone using some software. You can very well make argument that Apple didn’t do enough to stop spreading child pornography.

I feel there must be something we do not know, this feature isn’t implement overnight. It must be in preparation for year, if not years.

 

[Act3]

it IS opt in. First you OPT to chose icloud, then you opt in chose CSAM as step 2

Actually the first OPT is choosing Apple

 

[Nuvi]

View attachment 1815688

Sure, Twitter and Facebook are scanning the data you post on their services. However, Apple is going to scan every single Apple users private image directly on users device. There is massive privacy difference between server side and client side scanning especially if this means that client side will scan every single image of every Apple user even if users are not actively posting to an distribution platform or signing into distribution service.

 

[boswald]

If I could get my stuff appraised for a decent ROI (is that the right term?), I’d have sold it all by now. I don’t want any part of this. Like I said in another thread, I’m sick of disabling crap on a brand-new phone (that costs more than a used car!) to feel “safe.” I want to turn it on and use it worry-free.

I thought Apple was one of the only companies left who gives a crap about our privacy. They’re not perfect, but compared to the competition, I trusted them more than anyone.

Perhaps I’m overreacting, but I don’t like the precedent that’s being set. Like many others have suggested, this “algorithm” likely will not stop here unless there’s some kind of major backlash or something. I don’t want to wait and find out.