Apple adopts Blu-ray Technology

[Sunrunner]

You do understand that HD-DVD and Blu-ray BOTH use blue laser, right? In fact, they are both 405nm wavelength lasers (blue). DVD's are at 650 nm (red).

The pros and cons of the different formats have nothing to do with the wavelength of light being used.

That said, I think the benifits of BR discs clearly outweigh that of the HD variety from a consumer standpoint, as well as the benifits to be gained by pushing an obviously more expandable technology. I for one would love to be able to back up my system to simply one or two BR-ROM discs.

 

[nuckinfutz]

That said, I think the benifits of BR discs clearly outweigh that of the HD variety from a consumer standpoint, as well as the benifits to be gained by pushing an obviously more expandable technology. I for one would love to be able to back up my system to simply one or two BR-ROM discs.

What benefits? More storage is great for backing up your data but means litle if your are watching a 90 minute movie.

 

[Sunrunner]

Weak arguement. You have based the entire premise of your post on a strawman. The "inevitable" need for more storage space. You fall into the same trap that most Blu-Ray supporters fall into. You don't know the format enought to make a cogent statement beyond "It holds more data"

I suggest you go to http://www.blu-raydisc.com/ and read up a bit more. The battle really isn't over storage size (within a movie distribution context) but rather the unique features to both platorms ie HD-DVD sharing the same file structure with DVD for lower stamping costs versus BD and it's superior authoring tools.

Not meant to be a slam but we gotta get beyond mythical "future storage" requirements as some plausible reason for BD. Read their tech info and you'll come up with better arguements.

I think we have all heard this "current capacity is plenty" argument waaaay too many times over the years (from the likes of Bill Gates for instance). Face it, continued pro and consumer requirement for capacity growth is a certainty.

 

[nuckinfutz]

I think we have all heard this "current capacity is plenty" argument waaaay too many times over the years. Face it, continued requirement capacity growth is a certainty.

I doubt it. The industry is full speed ahead in finding ways to use "less" data not more data.

Is Apple flogging lossless audio on iTunes? No because the studios wouldn't let them likely but also because your bandwidth and storage requirements jump by an order of magnitude.

Blu-Ray rookies can only point to some mythical need for more storage in the future as the basis and justification for wanting more storage. Hey don't get me wrong more storage is nice but it's not the feature that will put BD ahead of HD-DVD. When the newer codecs take hold MPEG2 will be a thing of the past and our bitrates will damn near halve. A 30GB DL HD-DVD will hold 5 hrs of HD content on one disc. I don't see that as an overiding issue.

The thing BD supporters need to be flogging is the excellent authoring features that BD offers. It is a premium technology not just because it offers more space but its authoring modes are very complex.

The specification supports niftly forward thinking items like Flash or Hard Drive based storage. You can connect to the Internet or IP resources. Authors can have content on disc that can be unlocked (you know the porn industry loves this). You can create an interface in Java. There are two transparent overlays that run in sync with the video in which the UI elements like buttons and subtitles run on. Meaning they can be changed without messing with the data stream. Subtitles can change in font or color and will look much better.

There's so much to talk about regarding BD that extends far beyond "it has more storage". Laziness is the culprit here...it's far to easy to make a statement with no facts behind it.

I'm supporting both formats but I'm keen to see just how much of the BD features authors will take advantage of. It's clear that BD is going to be more expensive but whether it is worth it or not will depend on the content providers.

 

[weldon]

When the newer codecs take hold MPEG2 will be a thing of the past and our bitrates will damn near halve. A 30GB DL HD-DVD will hold 5 hrs of HD content on one disc.

I take issue with this. Not because it isn't possible, but because I would be disappointed if the studios released content at those bitrates. Your example works out to about 13.5Mbps (5 hours on 30GB) which would equate to a 8Mbps video stream with a Dolby Digital Plus track and two additional Dolby Digital tracks (commentary or second language).

Rather than look at how many hours of mediocre video can fit, I'd much prefer to look at how many hours of great video and audio can fit.

The best picture quality (PQ) and sound quality (SQ) is going to be realized at something like 15Mbps for video (higher bitrates don't seem to produce better PQ) and 13.5Mbps for audio (6 channels of 24/192 Dobly Lossless). Add in the two additional Dolby Digital tracks and we're at 29.7Mbps. At ~30Mbps we are getting close to the max bandwidth for HD-DVD (Blu-ray is much higher) and we're at only 2:20 length for HD-DVD, but at 3:50 for Blu-ray. Blu-ray still has room for extras on a single disc and extra bandwidth for complex scenes that peak the variable bitrate video encoding. An HD-DVD release would need to go to two discs or would more likely lower bitrates to fit the extra content and keep costs low.

 

[weldon]

There are two transparent overlays that run in sync with the video in which the UI elements like buttons and subtitles run on. Meaning they can be changed without messing with the data stream. Subtitles can change in font or color and will look much better.

The screenshots of Fellowship of the Ring with menus over the video looked pretty cool. It would be a really nice way to switch back and forth between the regular audio and the commentary track, for example. You don't have to exit the movie to make the change, you would just pull up the menu (which displays in an overlay on top of the movie) and make the change (assuming the player is capable of such on-the-fly changes).

The one situation I'm worried about is that authors will include more movie spoilers in the menus by having the actual video run underneath the menu overlays. Blu-ray could encourage more such bad behavior.

 

[nuckinfutz]

Weldon.

I'm sure it'll be lower than 15Mbps. Hell why move off of ATSC 19.8 for only a 3.8Mbps savings?? I'm willing to bet that they'll eventually avg around 12Mbps with 6-8Mbs for the Audio. That gives us 9GB or so per hour so a DL HD-DVD could easily hold 3 hrs of HD Video and Audio content leaving whatever is left for extras.

I just hopped onto the Doom9 forums but I didn't have time to search for peoples results with AVC and HD content. When Tiger ships I think we'll have a better idea. You could be right though it may take 15Mbps and I would be disappointed.

Weldon could you give me link to the LotR pic you speak of? I'll admit BD is slowly winning me over and I'm a pretty stubborn person but unless the HD Forum starts putting up more information about the authoring and Internet capabilities of HD-DVD I may have to join "Team BD"

The overlay feature is very nice and the buttons can be 256 colors and positioned in different areas. I'm impressed with BD that's for sure. The BDA has definitely outmarketed HD-DVD by a longshot.

 

[weldon]

I'm sure it'll be lower than 15Mbps. Hell why move off of ATSC 19.8 for only a 3.8Mbps savings??

Because it will look better! The goal should be BETTER video than ATSC, not just ATSC quality at lower bitrates. ATSC is 19.39Mbps MAX but that includes video, audio, PSIP tables, and null packets. The actual bitrate used by stations is closer to 15Mbps from what I've seen. Still there are encoding artifacts in high motion scenes (like baseketball games) because of the bandwidth limitation. 15Mbps VBR would allow for PQ as good as can be rendered with the codecs (according to early tests to find where diminishing returns jump off the cliff) and still allow room for complex scenes to peak higher when needed.

I'm willing to bet that they'll eventually avg around 12Mbps with 6-8Mbs for the Audio.

Never underestimate the stupidity of the studios - we could well see lower bitrates. As a consumer, I'm going to push for the very best PQ and SQ possible. If I can have 15Mbps video and 6 channels of lossless 24/192 audio, why not give it to me? 8 channels of 24/96 lossless audio would be fine too. If it comes down to HD-DVD has movies encoded at 10-12Mbps with lossy audio and Blu-ray has movies encoded at 15Mbps with lossless audio - I'm going to buy Blu-ray and I'll Netflix the rest of the titles on standard DVD.

I just hopped onto the Doom9 forums but I didn't have time to search for peoples results with AVC and HD content. When Tiger ships I think we'll have a better idea. You could be right though it may take 15Mbps and I would be disappointed.

Don't be disappointed. I'm basing my 15-16Mbps assumption on a statement by the program manager for VC-1 who said that this is where their customers said that they stop seeing an increase in PQ with both codecs. Said another way, further increases in bitrate don't result in further increases in PQ. This compares with 22-25Mbps MPEG-2. We're getting a 30-40% reduction in bitrate for incredible PQ - maybe the very best PQ possible with current display technology. We could do ATSC quality at 12Mbps but why not do better than that?

As for Tiger, I think there are going to be vastly different expectations for video conferencing using H.264 and iMovie HD in Tiger and packaged media. The story of H.264 in Tiger is going to be the same or better PQ at lower bitrates but the story of H.264/VC-1 in high def packaged media should be better PQ.

Weldon could you give me link to the LotR pic you speak of? I'll admit BD is slowly winning me over and I'm a pretty stubborn person but unless the HD Forum starts putting up more information about the authoring and Internet capabilities of HD-DVD I may have to join "Team BD"

The March 14th Sonic press release covers their BD authoring tools. And then this March 16th article shows the screeshots that Sonic put together. It says HD DVD but I was told this was a Blu-ray demo to go with the BD authoring tools announcement. Hmmm, I just pulled up the translation with google and this may actually be HD-DVD. Would make sense since New Line is in the HD-DVD camp. Maybe I got bad info.

But don't get all excited yet. As I was pulling up the above URL's, I found that HD-DVD has added internet streaming to their spec last week. I also found a statement that says the menu capabilities will be nearly identical on both platforms because they were designed to a requirements spec from the studios. Consumers won't see much difference in the menu's.

I think all of this shows how positive the format competition has been for consumers. We get two great codecs, great lossless and high bitrate audio options, great new menu and internet features, etc. The differences are really narrowing down to capacity, bandwidth, and cost. Capacity and bandwidth are on the side of Blu-ray, but cost remains to be seen.

The race continues.

 

[nuckinfutz]

Weldon

excellent reply. Thanks for the links. I'm excited either way, once people put their 27" CRTs out to pasture they'll understand why HD is so important.

 

[JesterJJZ]

Current HD broadcasts at 19mbps kinda suck in my opinion. Too much artifacting for me. Still better than analog, but I'd like better quality out of HiDef DVDs.

 

[mark6051]

Glad to see Apple on board with Blu Ray rather than HD DVD. I've been hoping for Blu Ray from the start.

Why ?

 

[wdlove]

Why ?

Hopefully we will hear something from Steve regarding this issue either at NAB or WWDC. The next Mac updates will be a good indication or where Apple stands.

 

[Lacero]

19 Mbs is plenty for HDTV. You see artifacting because the stations use a much lower bitrate, so they can saturate their bandwidth with more channels. Most likely these broadcasts are much lower than 19 Mbs.

There should be regulations to keep the image quality high. Too much abuse by the stations unfortunately.

 

[bbyrdhouse]

89 films doesn't sound like much. But it's a start that Blu-Ray hasn't had despite numerous showings of the hardware for the last two years.

Say what you want but 89 titles announced by 3 studios is a bird in the hand right now compared to the "promises" of Blu-Ray(cheaper production costs and future 4 layer tech)

89 titles vs NONE for Blu-Ray.

If the BDA announced tomorrow that they will have a deck available Q4 for $1000 MSRP and 89 studio titles available Q4 for $20-30 MSRP a pop, ...

The 89 HD-DVD titles will ship in 2005. Note that Sony's PS3 isn't due until 2H 2006. You haven't read the thread have you? HD-DVD "is" going to be cheaper thus market penetration should be theirs to lose.

89 Titles announced
Toshiba execs talking price. $1000 for a player.
Half Height HD-DVD drive announced.

...When Toshiba comes out and says "We'll have players for $1000 and we have 89 titles coming in 2005" ...

...The announcement of 89 titles indicates that Time-Warner financially benefits from HD-DVD ...

89 Titles guys... hard to argue wit that!

... I don't think the 89 titles announcement is significant at all. ...

 

[weldon]

89 Titles guys... hard to argue wit that!

Actually, it's easy. Does anyone really think that Sony is going to launch Blu-ray players and the PS3 without any of their movie titles available at the same time? There are probably that many titles already available for the PSP on UMD mini.

The announcement of 89 titles this early in the game is insignificant. There are far more interesting things happening in the HD-DVD vs Blu-ray saga right now including a possible triple-layer 45GB HD-DVD disc and the recently revealed details on the PS3.