Apple adopts Blu-ray Technology

[Lacero]

Blu-Ray is perfect as a mass storage medium, as price deltas in competing technologies is less affected in the computer market. As soon as the technology matures, it will be at the same price as HD DVD, and studios may back the leading format. I'd like to see blu-ray succeed, but it's most likely HD-DVD will win out in the end.

 

[taz]

Newbie here... I've been skimming this discussion...

Has the idea of the 3 inch disk been presented?

If Blu-Ray is able to store more data, you will be able to put the same amount of data on a smaller platter...

Image the Mini with a 3" drive? An iPod with removable disks?

What is the PSP disk format?

 

[JesterJJZ]

The PSP uses a UMD, another lame propriatary Sony format. Very simalr to what Gamecube uses. Basically a 3in DVD that can hold 1.5 gigs single layer. Don't remember if it can be dual layered. The sony also comes in its own caddy.

 

[Sunrunner]

The PSP uses a UMD, another lame propriatary Sony format. Very simalr to what Gamecube uses. Basically a 3in DVD that can hold 1.5 gigs single layer. Don't remember if it can be dual layered. The sony also comes in its own caddy.

Sony and their dang proprietary bad ideas can go pound sand. Its sinking the company, just like ATRAC sank their music players.

 

[Sunrunner]

Blu-Ray is perfect as a mass storage medium, as price deltas in competing technologies is less affected in the computer market. As soon as the technology matures, it will be at the same price as HD DVD, and studios may back the leading format. I'd like to see blu-ray succeed, but it's most likely HD-DVD will win out in the end.

What leads you to believe that HDDVD would win in the end exactly? Its my impression that a lot of the big players have signed onto Blu-Ray...

 

[Rod Rod]

What leads you to believe that HDDVD would win in the end exactly? Its my impression that a lot of the big players have signed onto Blu-Ray...

Lacero has already explained at least twice why he thinks HD-DVD will win. It shouldn't be hard to find his other posts on this subject in this thread.

 

[DEXTERITY]

Does anyone know if it would be possible (once apple adopts blue ray) to replace the current super drive in the Dual 2.0 G5's with a blue ray drive?
Or is it even necessary? Am I only missing out on a bigger storage medium? I Don't want to purchase a new computer just for blue ray and I just got the G5 a few months ago. Maybe an external drive would be an option..Thanks in advance.

 

[nuckinfutz]

Does anyone know if it would be possible once apple adopts this to replace the current super drive in the Dual 2.0 G5's with a blue ray drive? Don't want to purchase a new computer just for blue ray..

You won't see Blu-Ray computer drives until Q1 2006 at the earliest. No one really knows what the price or the requirements will be but they will be standard half-height drives.

 

[DEXTERITY]

thanks for the info. That's a good ways away. I guess not much to worry about.

 

[weldon]

You won't see Blu-Ray computer drives until Q1 2006 at the earliest. No one really knows what the price or the requirements will be but they will be standard half-height drives.

"BenQ expects to ship its BW1000 PC triple format BD/DVD/CD writer (developed by PBDS, Philips BenQ Digital Storage) before Christmas this year for about €500 according to heise.de."

 

[Rod Rod]

The missing link has been the consumer's ability to export HD video off their Mac.

Not exactly. iMovie HD allows you to export HD video off your Mac by recording back to HDV tape. The "missing link" has been the ability to export HD video onto an optical disc which would play back in high definition on a TV set. Another missing link in that chain has also been the availability of a set-top DVD player capable of playing HD content.

It appears Blu-ray will be the technology and we can expect iDVD and burning support in the future.

Hopefully Apple hedges its bets and signs onto the HD-DVD consortium also, at least for DVD Studio Pro. This is way more consequential than DVD±R.

Support both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. Just get political on us!

Exactly.

On the contrary, they should pick a side. The faster the other format dies off, the better. Betamax was superior to VHS, but Betamax and VHS existing at the same time would have been worst of all.

Betamax lost because you could only fit one hour on a tape, whereas on VHS you could record two hours (and eventually 6 hours). JVC's licensing of VHS VCR manufacturing helped it become way less costly than Sony's Betamax decks (which had far more limited licensing). For practical purposes VHS was superior.

Your argument would be stronger if you took VHS as a positive example, because HD-DVD (like Betamax) has less capacity than Blu-Ray. As for picture quality, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray should be identical.

Anyway, Betamax morphed into Betacam SP and Digibeta for professional ENG applications, which obviously has coexisted with VHS all these years.

I'd also imagine that it would take more processing power to encode HD then what the current notebooks can supply.

Current notebooks can encode HD. It just takes more time. However, if CoreVideo offloads work to the GPU and accelerates H.264 encoding (which both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will use) maybe it won't be that bad.

Just my feeling: whoever/whichever Sony chooses will be the winner... and no, it won't happen the same beta/vhs deal... times are different

I respect this opinion. However, Sony has also chosen ATRAC.

Microsoft is to HD-DVD as Apple is to Blu-Ray. Think about it.

Which means HD-DVD will have 90%+ market penetration? You're trying to make the case that Blu-Ray will be more commercially successful and that's your final thought?

 

[Rod Rod]

could we also suppose Apple would have some BD as early as WWDC?
well....
comeon steve, what we need is Dual Layer DVD R!! give us native support and internal drive!!!

btw, before we could edit HD video "easily" at "entry level" iMovie, we need a HD VIDEO CAM!!! or else it would be no use...
hay, comeon SONY, make us some "entry level" HD DV, and of course, with entry level SIZE and PRICE, please!!!!

You don't need a high definition camera to create HD content on your Mac. You can make HD slideshows right now if you felt like it. Anyhow, the Sony executive at MWSF said lower priced HDV camcorders are forthcoming.

 

[weldon]

Anyhow, the Sony executive at MWSF said lower priced HDV camcorders are forthcoming.

Sony released new cameras at $3500 and $5000 in February. A pro-shooter acquaintance here in Denver says that they rival the $100,000 Panisonic varicam. This guy was just on a trip to Panama to do some HD documentary work using the Panasonic - he's a way more credible source than I am.

At $3500, that's pretty close to the prosumer level. I expect we'll see gear under $2000 in due time.

 

[Rod Rod]

Sony released new cameras at $3500 and $5000 in February. A pro-shooter acquaintance here in Denver says that they rival the $100,000 Panisonic varicam. This guy was just on a trip to Panama to do some HD documentary work using the Panasonic - he's a way more credible source than I am.

At $3500, that's pretty close to the prosumer level. I expect we'll see gear under $2000 in due time.

If you're trying to correct me, at least have your facts straight. The Sony FX1 was released in November. The Z1 came out in February.

Your pro shooter acquaintance's opinion is valuable.

Your expectation of sub-$2000 HDV gear has already been met. The going street price for a new JVC HD1 from reputable dealers is under $2000. The eBay range is $1300-$1600.

Watch the MWSF 2005 video again. Right as Sony President Kunitake Ando exits, he promises a consumer-level, less expensive (not FX1 or Z1, but a lower tier) HDV consumer camcorder. This is around 56 or 57 minutes into the 2005 Expo Keynote.

 

[weldon]

If you're trying to correct me, at least have your facts straight. The Sony FX1 was released in November. The Z1 came out in February.

I wasn't trying to correct you, I was trying to add some information on what was available now since that wasn't addressed in your post. I understand the difference between the two Sony models, I was being lazy and simplified to concentrate on the cheaper option made available in February.

Your expectation of sub-$2000 HDV gear has already been met. The going street price for a new JVC HD1 from reputable dealers is under $2000. The eBay range is $1300-$1600.

True, true. Of course, the JVC is 720p/30 and single CCD while the Sony's are 1080i/60 and 3 CCD. I didn't mention the JVC because I haven't heard good things about it, and I was actually thinking ahead to lower priced models of the Sony cameras or 1080i cameras from other companies. I should have been more explicit.

Watch the MWSF 2005 video again. Right as Sony President Kunitake Ando exits, he promises a consumer-level, less expensive (not FX1 or Z1, but a lower tier) HDV consumer camcorder. This is around 56 or 57 minutes into the 2005 Expo Keynote.

Yes. This is what I had in mind - lower priced versions of the 1080i 3-CCD cameras from Sony that would eventually hit $2000 or less. The JVC is a capable device, but nowhere near the quality of the Sony from what I've read.

 

[xsedrinam]

True, true. Of course, the JVC is 720p/30 and single CCD while the Sony's are 1080i/60 and 3 CCD. I didn't mention the JVC because I haven't heard good things about it, and I was actually thinking ahead to lower priced models of the Sony cameras or 1080i cameras from other companies. I should have been more explicit.

Check your info on the JVC. I have a JVC GY-DV300. It is designed with 3-CCD system which employs 380,000 effective pixels.
X

 

[weldon]

Hopefully Apple hedges its bets and signs onto the HD-DVD consortium also, at least for DVD Studio Pro. This is way more consequential than DVD±R.

This is a pretty important point. I can understand why Apple would want to pick Blu-ray for computers - HP and Dell have already signed on to Blu-ray. But even if Blu-ray is going to replace the superdirve (the super-duper-drive?) Apple's pro apps should be able to play with both formats to prepare material for both HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs, even if HD-DVD recording is done on a third-party drive or on a different system.

The video and audio codecs are essentially the same (I think there are slightly different constraints on the codecs in each format spec) but the menu systems are different. I heard of a Blu-ray demo (and saw screenshots) where they showed the ability to alpha-blend menus on top of live video. There are also internet streaming features that can be selected from on-disc menu options. Those are the kind of features that need to be incorporated into DVD Studio Pro in the future. I hope Apple is ready so that they can serve everyone in the industry.

Secretly, I hope Blu-ray just outright wins so we get a single format with higher capacity, but I clearly recognize the effect that competition has had on improving the codecs and features on both formats. Whichever format wins, we will have a much better product because of this period where they are competing with each other (and Microsoft is competing with H.264).

 

[weldon]

Check your info on the JVC. I have a JVC GY-DV300. It is designed with 3-CCD system which employs 380,000 effective pixels.
X

The JVC GR-HD1 has a 1/3" 1.18 megapixel progressive CCD.

http://www.jvc.com/product.jsp?modelId=MODL027075&pathId=29&page=2

Check out the price of the Sony FX-1 at this site! I wonder where they stole it from?

<edit>
Lest anyone think that they should jump on this deal, please read the reseller ratings first. I don't think I would do business there.
</edit>

 

[wdlove]

So it sounds like we won't hear a final decision from Steve till MWSF 2006. In the case of Betamax loosing because of less capacity, then its just common sense that HD-DVD should join it in the history books. If the quality is the same then Blue-ray, is the future.

 

[Lacero]

JVC just came out with a new HDV camcorder with interchangeable lenses that can record 720P HD in 24P, 30P and 60P modes. Looks to be under $10K fully loaded. Another step towards a HD future.

 

[nuckinfutz]

JVC just came out with a new HDV camcorder with interchangeable lenses that can record 720P HD in 24P, 30P and 60P modes. Looks to be under $10K fully loaded. Another step towards a HD future.

When steve says 2005 is the year of HD he basically means from NAB 2005 and on we should see a lot more new HD products.

Apple will be forced to accept both formats really. I can't see DVD Studio Pro 5 or whatever it'll be next year supporting Blu-Ray only based on some Apple stubborness. Soon we'll be able to see how good the QT7 AVC encoder is. I need to know what bitrate AVC HD looks best in.

 

[Mac Dummy]

Just thought I'd add my $.50

Hi all,

I've been reading all your posts and I have come to a conclusion.

I don't really care what format wins this war, Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. I think the 4 things that will drive either format to dominance are

1. COST!! - cost of manufacturing drives and media vs. what consumers will pay for them
2. Capacity- how much data will each disc hold
3. Speed- how fast will drives read/write
4. Availability

I think the first three are important right now. We saw this with the DVD format wars. Because consumers don't want to have to pay large sums of money for this technology, they want the capacity to save as much as they can to a single disc, and they want it done quickly. Gone are the days people are willing to wait. I think that is all that really matters.

 

[intlplby]

i don't this is a point that has been mentioned yet, but i think a lot of people are overlooking one major fact that would explain why we should go with Blu-Ray....

expandibility.

if there is an inevitible need for more and more capacity with each passing year then HD-DVD seems to be the best option for the short term. Invest money in it now, but experience much less future growth. Blu-Ray on the other hand is an investment with a much greater promise of life.

you can clearly see why the hardware and content are on opposite sides of the fence then......

the content providers (the studios) just want to get HD content out there are quickly and cheaply as possible.

the hardware camp clearly realizes that investing in HD-DVD is investing in a soon to be obsolete technology. it's clear that red lasers are near the end of their life in terms of capabilities. the only real thing breathing enough life into HD-DVD to make it able to compete with Blu-Ray now really is the better codecs. If you didn't not have a better codec than HD-DVDs inadequacy becomes far more apparent.

The best thing for everyone clearly is to see blue laser optical storage technology become the favored technology. Things will be a tad pricier in the beginning, but these really is only applicable to the consumers that are early adopters and it is not the early adopters but the mass market that determines the prevailing technology.

The hardware folks know where the real money lies.

 

[nuckinfutz]

the hardware camp clearly realizes that investing in HD-DVD is investing in a soon to be obsolete technology. it's clear that red lasers are near the end of their life in terms of capabilities. the only real thing breathing enough life into HD-DVD to make it able to compete with Blu-Ray now really is the better codecs. If you didn't not have a better codec than HD-DVDs inadequacy becomes far more apparent.

Weak arguement. You have based the entire premise of your post on a strawman. The "inevitable" need for more storage space. You fall into the same trap that most Blu-Ray supporters fall into. You don't know the format enought to make a cogent statement beyond "It holds more data"

I suggest you go to http://www.blu-raydisc.com/ and read up a bit more. The battle really isn't over storage size (within a movie distribution context) but rather the unique features to both platorms ie HD-DVD sharing the same file structure with DVD for lower stamping costs versus BD and it's superior authoring tools.

Not meant to be a slam but we gotta get beyond mythical "future storage" requirements as some plausible reason for BD. Read their tech info and you'll come up with better arguements.

 

[weldon]

the hardware camp clearly realizes that investing in HD-DVD is investing in a soon to be obsolete technology. it's clear that red lasers are near the end of their life in terms of capabilities. the only real thing breathing enough life into HD-DVD to make it able to compete with Blu-Ray now really is the better codecs.[...]The best thing for everyone clearly is to see blue laser optical storage technology become the favored technology.

You do understand that HD-DVD and Blu-ray BOTH use blue laser, right? In fact, they are both 405nm wavelength lasers (blue). DVD's are at 650 nm (red).

The pros and cons of the different formats have nothing to do with the wavelength of light being used.