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A second spike was always going to happen. You're not going to stop a virus. We would have to shut down for half a year to make sure it was completely gone. The initial shutdown was so we could deal with the second spike. So we could make more equipment and PPE to deal with it. So we could slow the spread to let infrastructure catch up. It was never meant to stop it. Since when did everyone get so scared of getting sick? It happens. It happens to most people a few times a year. You don't shut everything down again! Are we going to have a 3 month cycle of shutting everything down, then slowing reopening just to shut it down again?

I just had Pneumonia. Nobody would see me unless I went to the ER. I'm not spending thousands of dollars on an ER visit for Pneumonia when Antibiotics would work. But everyone was worried it was Covid-19 so they don't want to touch you.

Society is upside down. We can't see the forest through the trees because we are choking on political correctness.Wear a mask, fine. That's not the answer to this. Hurd immunity is the answer. If Covid doesn't take you out, maybe it'll be the heart attack because you've sat on you butt for months doing nothing, or maybe it'll be the car accident you get in when you finally leave your house and the delivery driver we've all been relying on plows into you because s/he's on his/her 14th hour of work.
 
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If you claim a person is using a fallacy, you should identify which fallacy it is, otherwise it is evident you don't know what you are talking about, but that is no surprise given your track record of posting constant misinformation.
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You didn't answer the question whatsoever, instead only deflected. Nothing you posted has anything to do with masks helping prevent the spread of the active pandemic, nor does it have anything to do with herd immunity in NYC.

Please answer the question as asked and stay on topic.

Heyyyyy...my buddy is back! Welcome back man! ;)
 
A second spike was always going to happen. You're not going to stop a virus. We would have to shut down for half a year to make sure it was completely gone. The initial shutdown was so we could deal with the second spike. So we could make more equipment and PPE to deal with it. So we could slow the spread to let infrastructure catch up. It was never meant to stop it. Since when did everyone get so scared of getting sick? It happens. It happens to most people a few times a year. You don't shut everything down again! Are we going to have a 3 month cycle of shutting everything down, then slowing reopening just to shut it down again?

I just had Pneumonia. Nobody would see me unless I went to the ER. I'm not spending thousands of dollars on an ER visit for Pneumonia when Antibiotics would work. But everyone was worried it was Covid-19 so they don't want to touch you.

Society is upside down. We can't see the forest through the trees because we are choking on political correctness.Wear a mask, fine. That's not the answer to this. Hurd immunity is the answer. If Covid doesn't take you out, maybe it'll be the heart attack because you've sat on you butt for months doing nothing, or maybe it'll be the car accident you get in when you finally leave your house and the delivery driver we've all been relying on plows into you because s/he's on his/her 14th hour of work.

Idiotic theory. 100,000 people died with less than 1% of the population having caught the disease. It takes 60%+ of the population for there to be herd immunity. So you want 6 million people to die so that you don’t have to be bothered to wear a face mask when you go outside?

I remember another guy who wanted 6 million people to die.
 
If you claim a person is using a fallacy, you should identify which fallacy it is, otherwise it is evident you don't know what you are talking about, but that is no surprise given your track record of posting constant misinformation.

/edit/ I misunderstood the comment being made, chucker23n1 below clarified it, of which my thoughts on that come in a later post.
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You didn't answer the question whatsoever, instead only deflected. Nothing you posted has anything to do with masks helping prevent the spread of the active pandemic, nor does it have anything to do with herd immunity in NYC.

Please answer the question as asked and stay on topic.

I have been meaning to ask you actually...with you insistence that the "science" is correct...what was your position on masks two months ago when the WHO said that wearing masks didn't help prevent infections? Were you pro-masks then or "masks don't help"? Because if you were pro-masks then you were going against the advice of a huge scientific "authority"...but if you were going with the current science and were "masks don't help" then you have changed your position and must, surely, therefore admit that what is deemed scientific consensus can change? So which is it? I am honestly curious...what was your position?

And no, I am not trying to be an a**hole, I am honestly trying to understand your position. This is where I have the disconnect with you I think...I don't understand how you can be fervently "for" masks and science when two months ago the issue of masks was, at least from the WHO perspective, that they shouldn't be worn. Or at the very least that they didn't help. So can you at least understand my confusion regarding your position?

If you have seen some of my other posts on here recently, some people have called me out, given me an explanation, and I have admitted I may have come across in the wrong way, and have said on other occasions that I totally respect people's right to their own opinion, all without getting aggressive (or suspended I might add!). But for whatever reason, you cannot accept that I have just as much of a right as you to post my thoughts on a public forum and you just insist upon attacking me and letting the accusations fly.

I say this with no disrespect meant whatsoever as we all have our stories and no two stories are the same...but you really seem to be carrying around a lot of anger...at least that's how it seems from the outside.

EDIT: Maybe not on the last point...I will take that back if your post about your weekend and WWDC was genuine! ;)
 
Idiotic theory. 100,000 people died with less than 1% of the population having caught the disease. It takes 60%+ of the population for there to be herd immunity. So you want 6 million people to die so that you don’t have to be bothered to wear a face mask when you go outside?

I remember another guy who wanted 6 million people to die.
Give me a break! You compare me to Hitler because I say we can't keep shutting down? And where did I say don't wear a mask?

One of the reasons so many have died was because so many elderly people were sent to nursing homes after testing positive. Why would anyone send a positive case to a nursing home?
 
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Thanks, I hope you had a good weekend, I had an excellent one and am looking forward to WWDC tomorrow.

I had a nice relaxing Father's Day and yeah...WWDC...let's hope it's an interesting one! I am sure there will be a lot we can discuss after! ;)
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Idiotic theory. 100,000 people died with less than 1% of the population having caught the disease. It takes 60%+ of the population for there to be herd immunity. So you want 6 million people to die so that you don’t have to be bothered to wear a face mask when you go outside?

I remember another guy who wanted 6 million people to die.

Wow!!! I've gotta say...if you are making Hitler comparisons then you really must be running out of arguments! I'm sure he's also racist, xenophobic, extreme far right, authoritarian, male privileged, white privileged, homophobic, transphobic, heteronormative, misogynistic....ummm...did I miss any? May as well go for the full house after you've dropped the "H-Bomb"
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@TVOR isn't saying you used a fallacy. They're saying you seem a little too invested in accusing others of using fallacies.

Thank you good Sir for clarifying for me...I shall have to find a way of making myself more clear!
 
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Thanks for illustrating my point... From 4/30 until some point in June, they saw a decline which proves once again that reopening too early did NOT result in a spike in cases.

You're welcome. Let's see how the same chart looks today. Oops. Now, I still think cherrypicking a handful of peaks to make a trend line was absurd, so I'm not going to make the same mistake here, but you have to at least laugh at how bad this looks. Please go ahead and draw your silly red lines on this one.

Screen Shot 2020-06-22 at 01.24.41.png
 
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Thanks for illustrating my point... From 4/30 until some point in June, they saw a decline which proves once again that reopening too early did NOT result in a spike in cases.

You're welcome. Let's see how the same chart looks today. Oops. Now, I still think cherrypicking a handful fo peaks to make a trend line was absurd, so I'm not going to make the same mistake here, but you have to at least laugh at how bad this looks. Please go ahead and draw your silly red lines on this one.

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People have been coming out of lockdown the world over and very few places are showing increases nationally. Why do you think the US is different at this point?
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New Zealand is a far less populated country. You can't compare one to the other. There will be a degree of overlap but that is such a flawed statement to say "It worked there so it would have worked here"...there are far too many variables.

You can compare. Population is irrelevant. It's the process and the acceptance of the population to do the right thing, to think about the health of everyone and not about 'me'. That's the difference.
 
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I think the biggest issue is that upon reopening, many felt like it was fine to just return to normal, as if a storm had passed through. I read all these comments saying we have to adapt and move on, but that’s not the issue. We are trying to open up, but many don’t want to adapt bc they do not want to be bothered, or do not think it will affect them. There are a hell of a lot of people who are at risk of severe complications and possibly death due to underlying conditions who also would love things opened up. And they’d like to avoid the whole dying or lifelong complications thing. But I guess it’s too selfish and unreasonable to hope others might listen to health experts who recommend wearing masks and practicing social distancing. Sure, there’s plenty they don’t know yet about COVID-9, but I will defer to recommendations of those with scientific and medical training over those completely lacking expertise for whom wearing a mask is an assault upon their basic human dignity.
 
You can compare. Population is irrelevant. It's the process and the acceptance of the population to do the right thing, to think about the health of everyone and not about 'me'. That's the difference.

This is correct. The mindset that “I know more that a bunch of geeky scientists” or “my personal right not to wear a mask is more important than the lives of 20 people in a nursing home” is exactly how we got into this mess.

There’s a time and a place for individualism and challenging the status quo. A pandemic is not one of those times. I’m glad to be an American living abroad in a place maintaining sanity (and seeing very few fatalities). I do, however, worry for my friends and family stateside.
 
Idiotic theory. 100,000 people died with less than 1% of the population having caught the disease. It takes 60%+ of the population for there to be herd immunity. So you want 6 million people to die so that you don’t have to be bothered to wear a face mask when you go outside?

I remember another guy who wanted 6 million people to die.
So only the positive tests have contracted the virus? OK. I think it’s far more likely 10% or more of the population had the virus already. Maybe more. That means the death rate is 10x lower. Of course I’m speculating, but even you must agree the total cases are FAR more than positive tests. What the number is In reality is up for debate.

Again, idiotic theory using this linear logic to calculate future deaths. That model has already been proven wrong, despite extremely relaxed implementation of quarantine and precautions.

6 million healthy people are not going to die from Covid 19. The virus can’t and has already shown to be unable to continue killing at the same rate. Add in asymptomatic and mild cases never reported and you have a far lower death rate than published.

Even the CDC and WHO have indicated this virus targets elderly and those with underlying conditions. We also have a very liberal method of counting a death from Covid 19. It’s been documented that many who have died with a positive Covid 19 case have been counted as a Covid death, with many other conditions being present. Misleading and silly.

Again, we need to question the data and dig into it fully to understand. You can‘t simply take deaths divided by positive cases and call it a death rate nor can you take said death rate and spread it like peanut butter over your next 5.9M projected deaths. Doesn’t necessarily work that way.

The deaths, while sucky and tragic, have been far lower with a terrible implementation of safety measures than many predicted. The fact we aren’t seeing higher death counts is a good thing. Literally 90% of People in my area (top 10 city) are acting like Covid doesn’t exist. No mask, no precaution. No care at all. This is somewhat stupid, but it’s the way we have treated a very deadly virus for years...the flu.

The flu is also a serious virus people ignore.

Show me the medical history and age of every death. The number of no issues and young deaths is literally under 1% of the deaths. I can find the data if needed.

Smoking, alcohol, sugar, and a sedentary lifestyle are far more dangerous Than a respiratory virus that doesn’t kill healthy people.
 
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Wrong. You just bought propaganda.
That's a pretty baseless accusation. I know because friends and family were scrambling to prepare for working from home and socially distance.

About 70% of Tokyo people still went to work, restaurants and bars stayed open. Schools naturally shut down because of spring break, the inter-year vacation. April is when the Japanese school year starts, then summer break starts in June.

In Tokyo more than 60% introduced so-called teleworking in Tokyo (The link is in Japanese, but I'm sure you can google translate it). Bars and restaurants were asked to shorten their hours or voluntarily close for a month or so, depending on the prefecture. A lot of it are technically recommendations and not strictly binding, but people tend to follow government advice a lot more in Asia. Yes some venues were open because it was legal, but most compiled. This was only rescinded a few days ago. Schools were shut down in early march and only reopened this month. even with spring break, it was still more than a month of lockdown. Most universities were largely giving classes online like the U.S.


Again, their geography allowed them to shut down entry into the country, allowing time-consuming contact tracing to do its thing. It's all geography.
By that measure, any country can do the same by shutting down entry (and a lot of countries have done so to good effect). It's a simple matter of shutting down airports. SK's population is dense enough that if they were doing the same pace as the States, the infection rates could have been much higher. America shut down travel from China early on, but ignored Europe until it was too late, which was where New York's outbreak came from.

You never addressed why Alaska and Hawaii had so low rates versus the continental US. Again, they had the same policies and testing. Even Puerto Rico, with its lower levels of healthcare had a lower case and death rate than the mainland. It's geography. Sorry to burst your self-guilt bubble.
I'm not saying geography isn't important, but none of the three were large traveller destinations during the pandemic. If you only look at geography, the UK should have much lower numbers, given their location to Europe is similar to SK's is to East Asia given the de facto ocean that is North Korea. Alaska is also by far the least densely populated state and Hawaii's population density comes in part due to the roughly 10 million tourists that comes to the island each year, which declined more than half.
 
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You’re basing that on reading fake news. The facts are very different. Just look at the graph you posted! There is a clear downward trend from the first peak to about late May/early June. If I remember correctly, Georgia opened up its economy around April 20. And their early reopening was very successful, saving hundreds of thousands of jobs and thousands of businesses from going under while cases and hospitalizations decreased. Just look at their hospitalization rates.

.....

You don’t read about this in the news because they’re in the business of creating fear. In fact, The NY Times posted a scathing opinion piece (only a week after they reopened which isn’t enough time, btw) by a so-called expert titled, “Georgia went first. And it screwed up.” Really? Because I wish NY/NJ screwed up that badly.

In NY/NJ, we’ve had more deaths, more cases and more unemployment as a result of more businesses going under. In fact, in NJ, businesses are lining up to sue the gov’t and even local authorities are trying to rewrite the laws because they’re claiming gov Murphy is abusing his executive order privileges and keeping things locked down longer than they need to be.

Georgia is seeing an uptick in cases recently, but that’s NOT because they reopened the economy. If that were the case, they would have seen an increase in infections over a month ago (according to “experts“). It’s because people are letting their guards down.

It’s very simple, and you don’t need some expert to tell you this... Practice social distancing, wear a mask, and wash your hands frequently. If everyone does that, there’s no reason why all the economies couldn’t open up without inundating our healthcare system.
It doesn't take much to spike the cases. Look at Arizona they were under the radar, and now? (my sister lives in Arizona, so I get the updates from their perspective).

I agree about opening up the economy...slowly. It doesn't take much to swing the curve in the wrong way in a hurry.
 
You can compare. Population is irrelevant. It's the process and the acceptance of the population to do the right thing, to think about the health of everyone and not about 'me'. That's the difference.

Perhaps I should have said "population density" (which is what I meant)...would you still say that population density is irrelevant?
 
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Hmmm...well testing on its own will do absolutely nothing (other than get a clearer indication of exactly how many people have it). The only way that would have a positive effect is if people who test positive are forced to isolate. Perhaps you meant that and didn't include it in which case, fine. But testing alone won't change a thing!

As for the President issuing a "plea"...I honestly respect your optimism...but do you really think for a moment that would work? The liberty-loving right would complain that it was a step too far and breached their rights, and the Trump-hating left would probably not wear masks just because big Don had told them they should!

In any case, it wouldn't have kept everybody safe. It would have helped for sure, but as I have argued elsewhere, without a "control" group it is very hard to prove what has worked and what hasn't. Cases and infection profiles vary from country to country and from state to state, but given different weather conditions, different population densities, different demographics (poor communities seem to be hit harder which makes a lot of sense given reduce quality of services and living conditions), different cultures, and a whole range of other variables, it is almost impossible to say just how much the lockdown and other measures have actually slowed the spread.

Everything helps, I won't deny that. But I agree with the others on here who have pointed out that the advice being given about masks (and other things, but masks in particular) could possibly create a false sense of security. Or perhaps the masks do work but all they are doing is slowing down the spread and lengthening the overall duration. Or perhaps the masks work and have worked all along and the experts who said they didn't help at the beginning were wrong.

What I am convinced of is this: if this had happened even ten years ago, there wouldn't be such a huge divide between people. The internet, for all of its positives, has utterly erased "shades of grey". Social media and the ability to locate others from all over the world who have the same views as you - be those views left or right, be they radical or moderate - has allowed ideologies to ferment and bubble up. Some of which are radical ideas which, before the explosion of social media, would have been confined to a couple of crazies living in mom's basement who maybe met up once a month with the other three in their town that they had found and bitched about the world and what they would do if they were in charge. That has all changed.

Now, given the opportunity to meet the others who share their view all around the world, they are now emboldened, their views bolstered by validation, and they have more confidence to spread their views openly. And of course, owing to nothing more than the law of averages, for every radical right wing group there will be a radical left wing group. When you combine these spreading ideologies with the shareability of social media and the fact that it has democratised "news" giving everybody a voice (which is an idea which I don't know whether I find more "terrible" or "terrifying") and you find yourself in a world where everybody, even the moderate centrists, are being press-ganged into "taking a side". Phrases like "if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem" sow division and the creation of "otherdom". "Pick a side" they say. "Make sure you are on the right side of history" they say. And in doing so, the middle is gone, leaving behind a gaping chasm on either side of which exist the warring factions.

As can be seen by some of the responses to my posts, there is no desire to bridge that gap by many these days. They are deeply entrenched in their viewpoint. They cite the "experts" and "scientists" that agree with them, and shout over the views of others who are equally qualified but who don't agree with them (not talking about myself here, talking about other experts). They accuse them of being science deniers because they don't agree with THEIR science. They throw around terms like "far-right" or "Antifa" instead of the (usually) far more accurate "Somebody who disagrees with me".

And then somebody who isn't entrenched, somebody who perhaps has a slight leaning one way or the other but who is open to have their mind changed, suddenly seems themselves being identified as having "extreme" views. And this can go one of two ways. They may be terrified of being vilified or "cancelled", in which case they will outwardly side with the groups that is shouting the loudest and throwing the worst insults. But even in that case, will they actually agree with that side, or just pretend to in order to not be thrown under the bus?? The other option is that they react completely the other way and move much further in the direction of what they have always leaned towards anyway. Those on the left seem to believe that the former happens most of the time, while those on the right seem to believe that the latter happens. What ends up being true will come out in the end.

But this drawing up of battle lines serves nobody in the end. Because the dialogue and good natured criticism that has, in the past, led to many a great mind looking at something from a different perspective and, as a result, changing course and potentially making a great new discovery, that is a thing of the past. All that is happening now is divergence. There is such pressure to be "right and correct" that the focus has shifted away from "What would happen if we try this?" to "How can I prove my hypothesis?". The starting point used to be a theory, it has become a presumption. And I honestly believe that this will - ultimately - be far more destructive than constructive.

So to all of you out there that don't want to take part in the ideology "tug of war", for those that - somehow - are still managing to float about the chasm where "Middle Ground" used to proudly stand, I salute you and wish you well in your struggle. For you will be beset on all sides by those demanding that you accept their dogma, that you "educate yourself" and "read a book" (but only one the validates their viewpoint), and you may lose friends, you may even lose your job, but be strong, and refuse to lose the one thing that is rightfully and eternally yours, your SELF.

... ... ... Beautifully written!

Where do I even begin to start ?

I did mean testing. Yes I understand and respect your viewpoint on this. I personally just feel that testing equates to that old GI Joe cartoon saying "Knowing, is half the battle" Testing equals knowing. Not just in how many people are infected, but a better sample of symptoms vs infection vs disease. More data equals better information - especially over time and over seasons: late winter, spring and now summer in our North America vs other parts of the world.

We've seen this before, not as large scale but we have. Back in 2008 it was N1H1 ... I specifically was part of a team of 2 for BMO back office pandemic preparation and testing of remote connection and deployed for 2 weeks for critical testing as SARS became a pandemic. Here in Toronto wasn't so bad yet in Hamilton, ON people there were hit hard, maxing capacity of 2 hospitals for almost 30 days.

Being respectful and careful, here in Toronto I've noticed a specific people wearing masks over the last 10 yrs. Thinking to myself: what is the fear, why the need for masks, are they protecting others from something communicable they have, are they afraid of air quality, or are their lungs weakened due to some condition, or maybe against facial recognition from camera phones (I recent thought of 2yrs since reading Bloomberg article of this being practiced overseas). Many other countries have had their citizens social distancing at incredible awareness and efficiencies of testing and care. Switzerland I believe is pretty much back to normal in their social lives outside of their homes.

Back when the Spanish Flu hit the world, I'm not sure what political stance the leaders sided with then but I'm sure it didn't matter when care and announcements where made, I could be wrong. I agree the right would not accept it, yet the left is hammering on why no focus on social-distancing, masks, or care for citizens across the border. I think "SPIN" would and could be executed very well and over a short time the "R" would eventually go with the flow - most likely I'd be seriously wrong.

You've given me a lot to think about, not just on the topic of rebuttal yet just in writing style. I thank you for that.

Have an awesome day.
 
If you only look at geography, the UK should have much lower numbers, given their location to Europe is similar to SK's is to East Asia given the de facto ocean that is North Korea.

The UK has extensive connections to the European mainland via the Channel Tunnel, ferries and low cost carrier flights. The UK is an island, but it's only 20 miles from France. It is not the same situation as Japan or South Korea.

Japanese and South Koreans also notoriously refuse to leave their country for vacations or even business travel.

You need to learn geography and culture before discounting other's knowledge.
 
So silly. Might as well keep all the stores AND the HQ closed until a vaccine is found. Apple stores in no way will have a material impact on the spread and doesn’t put its employees in any more danger. This is clearly an overreaction by Tim because the closures make no sense whatsoever.

Also, there is no connection between re-opening the economy and rise in cases even though the media loves pushing that narrative. If that were the case, GA wouldn’t have seen a 4 week decline in cases after re-opening its economy. It’s now seeing small spikes here and there but hospitalization and death rates are still declining. The spread has more to do with individual behavior... not wearing masks, not washing hands, etc. People are clearly getting too comfortable.
Definitely the public's fault. Just because stuff opens doesn't mean you shouldn't still follow protocol. They correlate opening with not needing distancing or masks anymore. But I also blame some of the businesses who have no spine to enforce their rules. Giant might as well have no rules, but your ass is getting escorted to the door at Costco.
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First, you can't use "yesterday" because of the different reporting rates and delays. This is a known fact. You have to use a rolling average over about a week. So that's a case of lying by data.

Second, different countries are in different states of reopening. Reopening has to happen, and it's unclear whether one can reopen without increased cases. China is seeing a resurgence of cases now.

It's way to early to draw conclusions, but ultimately you have to look at cost to society, where cost is a combination of economic cost and health. Looking at one measure, cases (and not even deaths), is flawed.

We could shut down every year for the flu, but we don't.
Plus Canada and US are very close in area, so that means the US is 10x as densely population, which is what matters, not just straight population.
 
... ... ... Beautifully written!

Where do I even begin to start ?

I did mean testing. Yes I understand and respect your viewpoint on this. I personally just feel that testing equates to that old GI Joe cartoon saying "Knowing, is half the battle" Testing equals knowing. Not just in how many people are infected, but a better sample of symptoms vs infection vs disease. More data equals better information - especially over time and over seasons: late winter, spring and now summer in our North America vs other parts of the world.

We've seen this before, not as large scale but we have. Back in 2008 it was N1H1 ... I specifically was part of a team of 2 for BMO back office pandemic preparation and testing of remote connection and deployed for 2 weeks for critical testing as SARS became a pandemic. Here in Toronto wasn't so bad yet in Hamilton, ON people there were hit hard, maxing capacity of 2 hospitals for almost 30 days.

Being respectful and careful, here in Toronto I've noticed a specific people wearing masks over the last 10 yrs. Thinking to myself: what is the fear, why the need for masks, are they protecting others from something communicable they have, are they afraid of air quality, or are their lungs weakened due to some condition, or maybe against facial recognition from camera phones (I recent thought of 2yrs since reading Bloomberg article of this being practiced overseas). Many other countries have had their citizens social distancing at incredible awareness and efficiencies of testing and care. Switzerland I believe is pretty much back to normal in their social lives outside of their homes.

Back when the Spanish Flu hit the world, I'm not sure what political stance the leaders sided with then but I'm sure it didn't matter when care and announcements where made, I could be wrong. I agree the right would not accept it, yet the left is hammering on why no focus on social-distancing, masks, or care for citizens across the border. I think "SPIN" would and could be executed very well and over a short time the "R" would eventually go with the flow - most likely I'd be seriously wrong.

You've given me a lot to think about, not just on the topic of rebuttal yet just in writing style. I thank you for that.

Have an awesome day.

Hey...thanks for the kind words! It's not often that I get the opportunity to write something a bit more freeform as it tends to go off topic and become a TL:DR situation...but I guess I got carried away this time...glad to see that at least one person appreciated it!

In response to your points though, I agree wholeheartedly, information is just as important as action because, as can be seen from my sabre-rattling with others on here, the information forms the basis of the advice so the more you have, the better informed you are in terms of what advice you are giving to others.

I also fully respect your opinion given your background in what would have been quite similar situations. There are certainly cultural differences to consider in terms of how people react, and I don't only mean different nations, I also mean different parts of a single nation or - in some cases - a single city. It is a hugely complex scientific, moral and cultural problem which is why I have disagreed with many on here who want to fix a multi-dimensional problem with a one-dimensional "catch all". It will certainly help, but it isn't necessarily the best approach.

As for the left vs. right argument..my comments on the right were serious...and my comments on the left (not wearing masks because Big. D. had said so) were somewhat flippant, but there would certainly be an element of denial of the facts presented by Big. D. as most of the left view him as having little or no credibility. So it would be more of a case of the left refusing to go along with any advice from Trump not because he was Trump per se...but more because they didn't believe that his information was correct.

Anyway, I digress, great to hear from you and you are added to my list of "safe senders" for future conversations!

Have an awesome day yourself and greetings from across the pond!
 
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Why don't we shut down for flu every year?
Flu is obviously not the same, that’s why. And without a vaccine of any sort. Do you think the White House is temp checking for Flu? No. Having a task force for flu? No. Are we wearing mask on planes for flu? No. Are theme oarks closed for flu? No. So obviously there’s something different about this particular illness, right? Would you agree?


You are killing others even when you turn on a light switch.

That’s a little over the top, to say the least. Especially considering a lot of my lighting is running off solar now.

Eventually we’ll accept COVID-19 just as we accept all manners of other diseases that occur cyclically.

So, you’d just accept, say, ebola around you too?

Wow, triggered much?

By selfishness, greed and ignorance? Yes. Always.
 
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Hey...thanks for the kind words! It's not often that I get the opportunity to write something a bit more freeform as it tends to go off topic and become a TL:DR situation...but I guess I got carried away this time...glad to see that at least one person appreciated it!

In response to your points though, I agree wholeheartedly, information is just as important as action because, as can be seen from my sabre-rattling with others on here, the information forms the basis of the advice so the more you have, the better informed you are in terms of what advice you are giving to others.

I also fully respect your opinion given your background in what would have been quite similar situations. There are certainly cultural differences to consider in terms of how people react, and I don't only mean different nations, I also mean different parts of a single nation or - in some cases - a single city. It is a hugely complex scientific, moral and cultural problem which is why I have disagreed with many on here who want to fix a multi-dimensional problem with a one-dimensional "catch all". It will certainly help, but it isn't necessarily the best approach.

As for the left vs. right argument..my comments on the right were serious...and my comments on the left (not wearing masks because Big. D. had said so) were somewhat flippant, but there would certainly be an element of denial of the facts presented by Big. D. as most of the left view him as having little or no credibility. So it would be more of a case of the left refusing to go along with any advice from Trump not because he was Trump per se...but more because they didn't believe that his information was correct.

Anyway, I digress, great to hear from you and you are added to my list of "safe senders" for future conversations!

Have an awesome day yourself and greetings from across the pond!

Agreed and likewise. Much appreciate your dialog ... looking to more in the future, even if we share difference of opinions. It's refreshing. Greetings.
 
The UK has extensive connections to the European mainland via the Channel Tunnel, ferries and low cost carrier flights. The UK is an island, but it's only 20 miles from France. It is not the same situation as Japan or South Korea.

Yes it’s closer, but distance is largely irrelevant if you want prevent inbound and outbound travel. It’s a simple matter of closing off points of entry, and Korea was one of the earliest country to do so. Besides, Japan and South Korea are very interconnected when it comes to tourism. It’s pretty common to take day trips from Japan to SK and vice versa.

Japanese and South Koreans also notoriously refuse to leave their country for vacations or even business travel.
You need to learn geography and culture before discounting other's knowledge.

Well, one of your two sentences is incompatible with the other. Please check your facts before making baseless assumptions. SK and Japan are in the top 20 in the number of yearly outbound tourists worldwide at about 30 and 20 million respectively. That’s not even per capita; it’s in absolute numbers.
 
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