Apple Again in Talks for Peer-to-Peer Mobile Payments, May Launch Its Own Visa Debit Cards

[bollman]

Wow, I guess this will be US-only. I can't believe Apple would want to open up for being a bank in the EU. There's (thankfully) immense regulation and fees around banking.
In EU and specifically Sweden, banks have to pay a percentage of the profit of the company to the governments as an "insurance" against another financial crisis. The plan is to make that "fee" 15% of the profit. It's somewhere around 13-14 at the moment. The largest Swedish bank, Nordea now pays $550 million a year!

 

[576316]

It was predicted years ago that eventually Apple would become some sort of banking entity. They basically already have billions of card details in their back pocket, and a great millions of users who would probably be willing to trust them with their banking.

 

[timborama]

I don't understand why you can't just connect your bank account to Apple Pay. Why a credit card in between (and most credit cards from most banks not being supported...)

Ya right. Like I'm going to hand over my banking into to Apple. That will never happen! It's good there's a buffer, via credit card, IMO.

 

[alayal]

Wow, I guess this will be US-only. I can't believe Apple would want to open up for being a bank in the EU. There's (thankfully) immense regulation and fees around banking.
In EU and specifically Sweden, banks have to pay a percentage of the profit of the company to the governments as an "insurance" against another financial crisis. The plan is to make that "fee" 15% of the profit. It's somewhere around 13-14 at the moment. The largest Swedish bank, Nordea now pays $550 million a year!

A bank and a payment company aren't the same. Facebook, Paypal are payment services in Spain already but they are not banks at all.

 

[avanpelt]

The Answer is easy. Apple will somehow make the process more simple and quicker all at the same time more secure. This is what Apple does best, improve greatly on already existing technologies or features we have.

Eh, I hope you're right. In my opinion, Apple doesn't have a great track record of late of "improving greatly on already existing technologies or features we have". Some examples that come to mind: Apple Maps, Apple Pay (for the vast majority of consumers in the U.S.), Apple Music, and HomeKit.

Are Apple Pay and HomeKit more secure than alternatives? Definitely; but that security means absolutely nothing if the technology is not widely accessible and practical to use. I'm not going to start buying all my groceries at Whole Foods and Trader Joe's when they're 25 minutes from my house and a Kroger and Publix (neither of which accept Apple Pay) are 5 minutes from my house.

We can blame OEMs for not adopting HomeKit and businesses in the U.S. for not accepting NFC payments all we want (and it is valid to place some blame there). However, Apple is just as much (or more) to blame, in my opinion, because I get the sense that they haven't done much communicating with OEMs in the case of HomeKit or with businesses in the U.S. in the case of Apple Pay to say, "this is why you need to incorporate our technologies into your business...this is why our technologies will benefit your business."

I think Apple has basically taken the approach of "we're making this technology available and if you want to incorporate it, this is what you have to do or what you have to pay us to license it (in the case of HomeKit)" -- period, end of sentence.

Apple should have done a full-scale advertising blitz for consumers together with a full-scale education blitz for OEMs (for HomeKit) and U.S. retail businesses (for Apple Pay). Customers should've driven the demand for HomeKit-enabled products because they understood (because Apple explained it to them) that smart home technology needs to be secure, and Apple is committed to making sure that people can have a smart home without sacrificing security. Apple has done none of that education. The average person probably doesn't even know why HomeKit is important (if they even know what it is at all) beyond the fact that it means the product works with their iPhone -- which most smart home products on the market do anyway.

Customers should've also driven the demand for Apple Pay because customers (who were educated by Apple) said to businesses en masse, "I have an iPhone that can do Apple Pay and I don't want to swipe my card anymore because I'm sick and tired of having my card compromised." If Apple had taken the bull by the horns and educated U.S. consumers about Apple Pay in plain English almost three years ago so they understood why Apple Pay was better than swiping your card other than "it's fast and convenient to pay with your phone", I'm convinced that the adoption and use of Apple Pay would've been much higher than it is currently in the U.S.

All that to say, I hope Apple presents a coherent argument for the use of "Apple Cash" (or whatever it might be called) more so than they did with HomeKit, Apple Pay, Apple Music, and Apple Maps.

 

[JungeQuex]

I use PayPal all the time to send money to friends and family. I don't trust PayPal and their arbitrary policies. This would be a welcome addition to the Apple ecosystem for me.

 

[Rainshadow]

Where do you live? Banks in Canada generally allow unlimited transactions through bank-owned ATMs.

It must be a US thing. I do get free transactions at my bank ATMs ONLY which means the atms physically at the bank IF I am a customer there. Other ATMs charge $2-$5 (sometimes more at ATMs in tourist areas). Like I said, the bank also waives 2 additional transactions for a given period. I never use them for this reason. Not to mention fraud concerns.

An Apple method would be very welcome, but only half of my friends are in the Apple ecosystem, so it wouldn't be perfect.

 

[konqerror]

In EU and specifically Sweden, banks have to pay a percentage of the profit of the company to the governments as an "insurance" against another financial crisis. The plan is to make that "fee" 15% of the profit. It's somewhere around 13-14 at the moment. The largest Swedish bank, Nordea now pays $550 million a year!

US is better. In the US, banks pay the FDIC, the governmental deposit insurance fund, a percentage of all their deposits, based on their assessed risk, regardless of profits. This is far more fair because it is just like your house or car insurance. Should you pay more on your insurance when you make more money? Just because a bank is making money or not doesn't directly correlate to their potential risk: the amount of deposits does.

 

[Robert.Walter]

That's not the issue in the U.S. Tons of banks are on board with Apple Pay -- including many, many small local and regional banks.

The problem with Apple Pay in the U.S. is that many merchants are not on board with it either because they don't want to update their POS equipment to equipment that supports NFC or, if they do upgrade their POS equipment, they purposely disable NFC on it because they want to be able to track the purchases their customers make (which I gather they can't do if the customer uses Apple Pay).

That is clear. I was more or less talking about rest of world. Since the US is so far behind on deployment of modern POS tech it will take some time to fill in the holes. Some of the holes where merchants want to spy on their customers might never get filled in.

 

[Mactendo]

Long live and prosper, Apple. Great idea. And if you release it ASAP and worldwide and without fees, you'll own the market.
[doublepost=1493331126][/doublepost]

Not interested unless it's free, not sure how they would do that. The ATM still dispenses cash for free.

Um, no. I have never found an ATM that dispenses cash for free. I have an agreement with my bank that reimburses me for two withdrawals per 6 months (or something like that) but they all cost money so far as I've ever seen. Maybe different where you live.

It depends on the bank. Some banks allow it for free, some always take a fee, some allow it for free at their own branded ATMs, but take a fee in any else. If Apple can make it free for all ATMs worldwide (and fees abroad are sometimes big), that would be just great.

 

[gijoeinla]

I've shared this before...

Someone close in my family works for Verifone.. they told me like 8 months ago that Apple was looking to acquire them. No bs. But think about it. That would make Apple a bank -- overnight -- hence leading to peer to peer and a instant presence possibly at every single retailer that has Verifone machines without Apple Pay..

Just saying...

 

[Mactendo]

This sounds like more than payments to friends and more like a bank. Why does Apple want to be a bank? They already have plans to be a streaming TV and production company, an auto company, an augmented/virtual reality company, a display company (again soon) and a cellular network in addition to being a fitness and health company, wearables company, smartphone and tablet company, a laptop and desktop computer company, headphone and speaker company, wireless router company (maybe not for long), an accessory company, a payments handling company, music purchasing service, streaming music subscription service, radio station, movie/TV purchasing service, movie/TV rental service, App Store distributor for phones/tablets/computers/TVs, an eBook retailer, retail store for third party products and accessories, consumer technology training service, cloud storage/email/calendar/photo hosting company, a smart home company, consumer creative/office software company, an instant messaging company, a TV set-top box/gaming device company, professional audio/video software company. Even up until recently they were an ad network with iAds and they've tried being a social network a few times. It's just way too much!

I wouldn't be surprised if in my lifetime—in addition to the rumored stuff—I see Apple Loans, Apple Home, the iBattery, Apple Kitchen, the iDrone, the iBike, Apple Clothes, the iLight, Apple Healthcare, Apple Contacts, and Apple Brain. This is all assuming that the diversity of Apple's endeavors doesn't destroy the company in the process. Maybe they need to split things like Google did with Alphabet. The world is going to be ruled by huge conglomerates. Bleh…

Apple cash makes perfect sense. Many messengers already support money transfer, it's a hit in China, you can do virtually anything in local messengers, pay, buy, talk, chat, transfer money, get a taxi, whatever. Such thing will fit naturally into Apple Pay, and if they make it free, or add some nice and enticing features, then they'll just attract new customers, and who knows, maybe it will shake the banks in a good way.
[doublepost=1493332256][/doublepost]

I've shared this before...

Someone close in my family works for Verifone.. they told me like 8 months ago that Apple was looking to acquire them. No bs. But think about it. That would make Apple a bank -- overnight -- hence leading to peer to peer and a instant presence possibly at every single retailer that has Verifone machines without Apple Pay..

Just saying...

Oh, that probably would be fantastic. I hope Tim doesn't slip this time and can deliver on this idea. I'm excited more than about iPhone X/8/whatever edition.

 

[lederermc]

I'm not sure how most of Apple's customers in North America would benefit by Apple reinventing the wheel here. I'd venture a guess that the vast majority of Apple's North American customers over the age of 18 have a checking account. I can already transfer money fee-free to someone if they have a PayPal account (which is pretty ubiquitous and is platform agnostic) and the money can be in their checking account as quickly as the next business day.

I, personally, don't see the need for another card in a digital wallet. I already have all my debit and credit cards in the digital wallet on my iPhone. They work great -- when I can find a merchant that has NFC-equipped POS equipment or hasn't purposely disabled NFC.

This could be different in that you might be able to exchange "money" with anyone standing next to you that also has the Apple Digital Wallet - like Apple Pay in reverse. I didn't get a PayPal account until I figured it was easiest way for me to get my 40 year child to pay her fair share of the AT&T bill. PayPal has a bad reputation for yanking money out of your account without warning.

 

[ke-iron]

Eh, I hope you're right. In my opinion, Apple doesn't have a great track record of late of "improving greatly on already existing technologies or features we have". Some examples that come to mind: Apple Maps, Apple Pay (for the vast majority of consumers in the U.S.), Apple Music, and HomeKit.

Are Apple Pay and HomeKit more secure than alternatives? Definitely; but that security means absolutely nothing if the technology is not widely accessible and practical to use. I'm not going to start buying all my groceries at Whole Foods and Trader Joe's when they're 25 minutes from my house and a Kroger and Publix (neither of which accept Apple Pay) are 5 minutes from my house.

We can blame OEMs for not adopting HomeKit and businesses in the U.S. for not accepting NFC payments all we want (and it is valid to place some blame there). However, Apple is just as much (or more) to blame, in my opinion, because I get the sense that they haven't done much communicating with OEMs in the case of HomeKit or with businesses in the U.S. in the case of Apple Pay to say, "this is why you need to incorporate our technologies into your business...this is why our technologies will benefit your business."

I think Apple has basically taken the approach of "we're making this technology available and if you want to incorporate it, this is what you have to do or what you have to pay us to license it (in the case of HomeKit)" -- period, end of sentence.

Apple should have done a full-scale advertising blitz for consumers together with a full-scale education blitz for OEMs (for HomeKit) and U.S. retail businesses (for Apple Pay). Customers should've driven the demand for HomeKit-enabled products because they understood (because Apple explained it to them) that smart home technology needs to be secure, and Apple is committed to making sure that people can have a smart home without sacrificing security. Apple has done none of that education. The average person probably doesn't even know why HomeKit is important (if they even know what it is at all) beyond the fact that it means the product works with their iPhone -- which most smart home products on the market do anyway.

Customers should've also driven the demand for Apple Pay because customers (who were educated by Apple) said to businesses en masse, "I have an iPhone that can do Apple Pay and I don't want to swipe my card anymore because I'm sick and tired of having my card compromised." If Apple had taken the bull by the horns and educated U.S. consumers about Apple Pay in plain English almost three years ago so they understood why Apple Pay was better than swiping your card other than "it's fast and convenient to pay with your phone", I'm convinced that the adoption and use of Apple Pay would've been much higher than it is currently in the U.S.

All that to say, I hope Apple presents a coherent argument for the use of "Apple Cash" (or whatever it might be called) more so than they did with HomeKit, Apple Pay, Apple Music, and Apple Maps.

I think it's the businesses and banks to blame for the slow roll out of Apple Pay. It's already been out for at least 2 years. Yet companies are refusing to offer the tech, this is not Apple problem. If my banks did not support Apple Pay, I would simply leave them and join another bank. There are way too many options to chose from.
[doublepost=1493338194][/doublepost]

As someone who just picked up an iPhone SE, my first NFC-enabled iPhone, I'm rather disappointed how little seems to be compatible with Apple Wallet.

My Chase Visa went on there just fine and I was able to add my AMC Stubs card but otherwise nothing else seems to be compatible. A great idea that just doesn't really work in real life.

Like I said on another post. If your banks refuse to support the tech that's been out for at least 2 years now. Simply switch banks, too many options out there not to have what you want.

 

[konqerror]

Someone close in my family works for Verifone.. they told me like 8 months ago that Apple was looking to acquire them. No bs. But think about it. That would make Apple a bank -- overnight -- hence leading to peer to peer and a instant presence possibly at every single retailer that has Verifone machines without Apple Pay..

Verifone is hardly a bank. They touch no part of the money, they just make the terminals. In fact, the terminals don't even work unless the merchant/processor writes software to run on the terminals using the API that Verifone provides.

 

[JosephAW]

I just love showing businesses that they support Apple Pay when they tell me no. Was in at the DMV and I saw the near field symbol so I told them to put the amount in and press go and then my phone saw it and paid it.
They all gathered around and were surprised and gleeful. My town lives in the dark ages. Usually like 10 years behind the rest of the country.

 

[KAZphoto]

ACH is why it takes up to 5 business days for money to get from PayPal to your bank account, which is completely insane in 2017.

That and ACH can be terrible at handling funds. I have received large deposits from other sources that weren't mine and it took a while to sort out. Not the system I would want. Seems to work ok for recurring payments, but all it takes is one digit to be off somewhere and the money goes somewhere else until it's tracked down.
[doublepost=1493346798][/doublepost]

Ya right. Like I'm going to hand over my banking into to Apple. That will never happen! It's good there's a buffer, via credit card, IMO.

Just curious, why is that? You trust your bank with your money (assuming you aren't 100% cash based) and odds are they don't have nearly the assets Apple does in cash on hand to back up their potential lending.

 

[bollman]

US is better. In the US, banks pay the FDIC, the governmental deposit insurance fund, a percentage of all their deposits, based on their assessed risk, regardless of profits. This is far more fair because it is just like your house or car insurance. Should you pay more on your insurance when you make more money? Just because a bank is making money or not doesn't directly correlate to their potential risk: the amount of deposits does.

Eh, who deposits money in the bank?? The interest here is -0.5%, yes you read that right. The banks have not yet started to charge customers for depositing money, but they found other ways.

 

[Cigsm]

For your life. I use Apple Pay nearly everywhere.

As someone who just picked up an iPhone SE, my first NFC-enabled iPhone, I'm rather disappointed how little seems to be compatible with Apple Wallet.

My Chase Visa went on there just fine and I was able to add my AMC Stubs card but otherwise nothing else seems to be compatible. A great idea that just doesn't really work in real life.

 

[Tech198]

Apple is eager to get everyone who uses iPhones into their system anyway possible.... This looks like the "next step"

Why can't Apple just leave users to do what they choose instead of mucking up a system.

May be good for Apple, but any peer to peer only with a company that dishes out CC normally to customers, Apple is saying, "well, we don't like the way you do it, so we'll do our own"

People still have options (at least until Apple start saying, you can only use "Apple cash" here) I hope that never happens..

(edits: opps... did i just give something away??)


I wouldn't mind how it is.

 

[macs4nw]

This sounds like more than payments to friends and more like a bank. Why does Apple want to be a bank? They already have plans to be a streaming TV and production company, an auto company, an augmented/virtual reality company, a display company (again soon) and a cellular network in addition to being a fitness and health company, wearables company, smartphone and tablet company, a laptop and desktop computer company, headphone and speaker company, wireless router company (maybe not for long), an accessory company, a payments handling company, music purchasing service, streaming music subscription service, radio station, movie/TV purchasing service, movie/TV rental service, App Store distributor for phones/tablets/computers/TVs, an eBook retailer, retail store for third party products and accessories, consumer technology training service, cloud storage/email/calendar/photo hosting company, a smart home company, consumer creative/office software company, an instant messaging company, a TV set-top box/gaming device company, professional audio/video software company. Even up until recently they were an ad network with iAds and they've tried being a social network a few times. It's just way too much!

I wouldn't be surprised if in my lifetime—in addition to the rumored stuff—I see Apple Loans, Apple Home, the iBattery, Apple Kitchen, the iDrone, the iBike, Apple Clothes, the iLight, Apple Healthcare, Apple Contacts, and Apple Brain. This is all assuming that the diversity of Apple's endeavors doesn't destroy the company in the process. Maybe they need to split things like Google did with Alphabet. The world is going to be ruled by huge conglomerates. Bleh…

If they pursue this banking initiative, mortgages and home, auto, and life insurance can't be far behind.

As far as your impressive list is concerned, even the richest company on earth can't do all the above mentioned stuff to a standard commensurate with the level of quality we used to get from Cupertino. When is Tim going to realize that? And whatever happened to 1000 noes for every yes?

 

[69650]

If you have to "load money" it's a failure.

I don't see why. I load money onto my iTunes account using iTunes Gift Cards which I can purchase from several retailers. Presumably Apple could link that balance with Apple Cash.

 

[Abazigal]

This sounds like more than payments to friends and more like a bank. Why does Apple want to be a bank? They already have plans to be a streaming TV and production company, an auto company, an augmented/virtual reality company, a display company (again soon) and a cellular network in addition to being a fitness and health company, wearables company, smartphone and tablet company, a laptop and desktop computer company, headphone and speaker company, wireless router company (maybe not for long), an accessory company, a payments handling company, music purchasing service, streaming music subscription service, radio station, movie/TV purchasing service, movie/TV rental service, App Store distributor for phones/tablets/computers/TVs, an eBook retailer, retail store for third party products and accessories, consumer technology training service, cloud storage/email/calendar/photo hosting company, a smart home company, consumer creative/office software company, an instant messaging company, a TV set-top box/gaming device company, professional audio/video software company. Even up until recently they were an ad network with iAds and they've tried being a social network a few times. It's just way too much!

I wouldn't be surprised if in my lifetime—in addition to the rumored stuff—I see Apple Loans, Apple Home, the iBattery, Apple Kitchen, the iDrone, the iBike, Apple Clothes, the iLight, Apple Healthcare, Apple Contacts, and Apple Brain. This is all assuming that the diversity of Apple's endeavors doesn't destroy the company in the process. Maybe they need to split things like Google did with Alphabet. The world is going to be ruled by huge conglomerates. Bleh…

Sounds like Apple wants to be an ecosystem unto itself.

Apple clothes doesn't sound so far-fetched. We know Apple is looking to get into the wearables market. We already have the Apple Watch and AirPods, and smart clothing doesn't sound like that far off.

How long before Apple becomes like Samsung and we start seeing Apple-branded military hardware as well?

 

[macduke]

Sounds like Apple wants to be an ecosystem unto itself.

Apple clothes doesn't sound so far-fetched. We know Apple is looking to get into the wearables market. We already have the Apple Watch and AirPods, and smart clothing doesn't sound like that far off.

How long before Apple becomes like Samsung and we start seeing Apple-branded military hardware as well?

It probably already exists, but we just don't hear about it, lol.

Maybe they'll start competing with Samsung in the washer and dryer space. Funny story—Samsung actually recalled those last year too for literally exploding. What a company! And while I'm mostly joking, I think there is a lot of room for innovation in that space. They are a fire hazard in the U.S. due to lint vents that are constantly clogged up. There is pretty much only one machine you can buy in the U.S. that uses condensers like most in Europe and Japan do. And then there are things that some of the newest cutting-edge dryers do, like fold your clothes, that I'd like to see get mass market adoption. And they could be a lot more energy efficient and quiet.

 

[Robert.Walter]

I've shared this before...

Someone close in my family works for Verifone.. they told me like 8 months ago that Apple was looking to acquire them. No bs. But think about it. That would make Apple a bank -- overnight -- hence leading to peer to peer and a instant presence possibly at every single retailer that has Verifone machines without Apple Pay..

Just saying...

I call bs. Time to buy verifone was before merchants began converting to chip/NFC POS style terminals. Unless Verifone is running a big payment acquiring/processing network, what would be the advantage to Apple of acquiring a hardware company whose sales will be nearly at peak?