Apple Agrees to Pay $95 Million to Settle Lawsuit Claiming Refurbished Devices Aren't 'Equivalent to New' [Updated]

[deevey]

en subject to liquid damage? Apple understandably wants to save money, but refurbished is definitely not equivalent to new in reliability.

As someone who has never once needed to return a refurb, but has needed to return multiple "brand new" machines I'd disagree.

Refurb devices generally go through a-lot more vigorous testing than brand new machines, and most electronics these are not likely subject to multiple component failures.

Is there any hard numbers on refurb devices failure rate vs new?

Even brand new devices can end up "repaired" when then are tested prior to assembly, and minor issues are identified e.g. bad solder joints. They would go back for re-work. Couldn't that also classed as refurbished ?

HOWEVER

I think there should be a fair cutoff period where a refurb should be accepted by the customer as a replacement. For example only devices outside of, let's say, 6 months should be replaced by Apple with a refurbished device.

If a device is under 6 months old but discontinued or out-of-stock. Replacement with the current equivalent would be a fair deal.

 

[Stratus Fear]

As someone who has never once needed to return a refurb, but has needed to return multiple "brand new" machines I'd disagree.

Refurb devices generally go through a-lot more vigorous testing than brand new machines, and most electronics these are not likely subject to multiple component failures.

Is there any hard numbers on refurb devices failure rate vs new?

This has absolutely been my experience as well. Since 2002 I’ve had 3 new Macs and 2 refurbs. All 3 new ones needed repair within 3 years. One of the refurbs is 14 years old (an iMac) and the other is an 8 year old retina MBP 15”, neither has needed repair (other than the latter needing a new battery at the 7 year mark). Granted it’s just anecdotal. I echo your sentiment on looking for hard numbers.

 

[Wanted797]

This is all we can do. I am surprised they did not try to have you take a refurb or keep it and give you an Apple gift card…

Cause it was online they told me they could give me a gift card. When I said I’ll use that to buy a new one the guy looked at me like I was a genius.

 

[Wanted797]

Ozzie logic!

It was funny cause when I asked about new they immediately assumed I wanted one of them swapped out.

but I already knew they’d say no to that. I was nearly checking if they had stock and knew they would give me a refund haha

 

[Username: Required]

I went to have the iPhone battery replaced but they told me the speaker has problem after an automated test(the speaker did produce sound I don’t know what’s wrong). I told them not to fix it since I never turn on the internal speaker(always in silent mode and I use ext speakers or headphone).
The gave me a refurbished phone(at battery replacement cost), I was fine with that at first but the battery health deteriorated rapidly (which was the very reason I want to have the iPhone fixed) and I sold the phone (around 6 months later) got a new one instead of spending $ to fix the battery(again)…

Refrub is not new (I was asking for a new battery not a refrub phone)

 

[KindJamz]

Sure, but it still is a used device at the time one of its components fails.
Would be ok if they repaired it. Since that would cost time, it might be better to get an already repaired one in mint condition.

Yes but it was repaired with used parts from another defective phone. Is that part ready to fail? I don’t want my phone fixed with used parts.

let’s used another car dumb analogy. You go to a dealer and they used a part off a junked car out back. Your good with that? I mean you paid full price for the part? Maybe the car was in a flood.

 

[cicalinarrot]

So you think Apple, the actual company, takes liquid damaged devices and brushes them off to send back out as replacement devices?

Apple’s method to detect liquid damage is utterly primitive, just those white dots that become red.
Most partial water damage is located near the sim card and at the bottom (no water detector in that areas).
Some oxide damage is only visible with a microscope. They do not check: most components are covered in metal cages that they should solder away to check.
How do you know for sure there’s been no water damage? If the phone is brand new. As I’ve said in another comment, it’s the only way to know this and other kind of damage (physical, electric, overheating) haven’t happen.
Use basic logic and common sense, guys. I defend Apple about many issues but this time they are just lying, I’m mathematically sure.

 

[darngooddesign]

Most partial water damage is located near the sim card and at the bottom (no water detector in that areas).

Of course there is a sensors in the Sim slot; in fact, Apple has sensors everywhere water can get in the phone.

iPhone Water Damage Indicator Locations for All Models

Locate iPhone Water Damage Indicator Locations Both Externally and Internally on Your Device. Picture examples of water sensors for all models and locations

harvestcellular.net

And if you take the cynical view that the liquid sensors are there to prevent warranty repairs/replacements, its in Apple's best interest to place the sensors anywhere liquid could get in the phone. Of course, since Apple water proofed their phones the chances of liquid damage have been significantly reduced.

 

[gregmancuso]

That only proves my point, “refurbished” is not the same as “new”. And where does Apple state that refurbished devices are “simply returned devices, purchased new and returned the next day”? Besides returns there’s also damaged devices and trade-ins. And a returned device doesn’t mean it hasn’t been used.

No one said that it did. And the original comment to which you replied was using the fact that Apple does not sell refurbs as new is proof that refurbs are not as good as new. Apple does not state that all refurbs are returns. And I did not say that either. Nor did I say that the returns have not been used.

I was pointing out that there is legal definition of "new." A demo car sold off the lot is technically "new" but it is priced and sold at a discount. The loaner car from that same dealership is sold after some period of use. But it is sold on the used market. Technically it never left the dealer's ownership, but it still not a new car (registered as dealer licensed). Same for floor model items in stores. Where do you think the Open Box merchandise in the cages at Best Buy come from - returns and retired floor models.

Apple's warranty states replacement items and parts are refurbished to a like new condition. They may be new parts in white box. They may be items returned from within the store at time of purchase. Technically anything returned opened must be treated as a return and not sold as new. With obvious exceptions like an employee witnessing someone purchase an item, pull off the wrapper, then return it without ever handling the device. A case like that would allow for resealing the box and returning to inventory.

 

[Luba]

No one said that it did. And the original comment that you replied to was using the fact that Apple does not tell refurbs as new is proof that refurbs are not as good as new. Apple does not state that all refurbs are returns. And I did not say that either. Not did I say that the returns have not been used.

I was pointing out that there is legal definition of "new." A demo car sold off the lot is technically "new" but it is priced and sold at a discount. The loaner car from that same dealership is sold after some period of use. But it is sold on the used market. Technically it never left the dealer's ownership, but it still not a new car. Same for floor model items in stores. Where do you think the Open Box merchandise in the cages at Best Buy come from - returns and retired floor models.

Apple's warranty states replacement items and parts are refurbished to a like new condition. They may be new parts in white box. They may be items returned from within the store at time of purchase. Technically anything returned opened must be treated as a return and not sold as new. With obvious exceptions like an employee witnessing someone purchase an item, pull off the wrapper, then return it without ever handling the device. A case like that would allow for resealing the box and returning to inventory.

Yeah exactly . . . From an overall perspective, how can refurb be better quality-wise than new for us consumers? Perhaps, refurbs are close enough to being as good as new, but Apple is providing us with refurbs as replacements to save money. Apple employees are only trying to soothe us by telling us the refurbs are tested more than new devices.

 

[gregmancuso]

Yeah exactly . . . From an overall perspective, how can refurb be better quality-wise than new for us consumers? Perhaps, refurbs are close enough to being as good as new, but Apple is providing us with refurbs as replacements to save money. Apple employees are only trying to soothe us by telling us the refurbs are tested more than new devices.

I don't know. I have never expected to be given a brand new in box replacement for warranty repair. It is a repair. Warranties generally work :

1. Review and confirm problem
2. Try to repair
3. Replace with comparable.

The replacement would be functionally equivalent - refurbished (with warranty transfer or extension) being the most common with new being an option at the manufacturer's discretion. I have never seen a warranty policy that all warranty replacements are new in box (or white label new) merchandise. That is an unreasonable expectation.

It would be great - wait till the last week of the warranty period and intentionally overcharge your device causing some not-obviously intentional damage and go in a get a brand new phone.

I don't think you can read any admission on Apple's part that they implied or feel obligated to provide a new device as a warranty replacement by agreeing to settle. This is a settlement without admission of guilt. It does not attach any domestic or international precedent. And given how long these cases take, especially as class action, they probably did the math and determined that the settlement was cost effective.

 

[deevey]

Yes but it was repaired with used parts from another defective phone. Is that part ready to fail? I don’t want my phone fixed with used parts.

let’s used another car dumb analogy. You go to a dealer and they used a part off a junked car out back. Your good with that? I mean you paid full price for the part? Maybe the car was in a flood.

Thats exactly what dealers do with warranty repairs on cars.

 

[KindJamz]

Thats exactly what dealers do with warranty repairs on cars.

Every warranty repair on my car has been with ordered new parts. Haven’t been many of them though

so car dealers will replaced defective parts with other defective parts from junked cars in the lot? I doubt that

 

[Natrium]

No one said that it did. And the original comment that you replied to was using the fact that Apple does not tell refurbs as new is proof that refurbs are not as good as new. Apple does not state that all refurbs are returns. And I did not say that either. Not did I say that the returns have not been used.

Let me remind you. You stated that (i) a refurbished device is “a returned device”. You also stated that (ii) returned devices are “purchased new and returned the next day after opening the box”, implying returned devices have not been used. This is quoted from your own message that I replied to:

Or the fact that, by law, any open box returned item cannot be marked or sold as new might have something to do with that. Refurbished is simply a returned device - purchased new and returned the next day after opening the box goes into the refurb pipeline. Not all refurbs are damaged devices.

Statement (i) is not backed up by anything communicated by Apple, which I pointed out in my previous reply, by asking you where Apple says this. You agree now that they don’t, so nothing supports your statement.

Statement (ii) is simply untrue. Not all returned devices have been returned “the next day” and nothing stops people from using a device “after opening the box” and then returning it, meaning returned devices can have been used. It’s also very likely by the way.

In my reply to your previous message I simply pointed out both errors. It still stands.

 

[gregmancuso]

Let me remind you. You stated that (i) a refurbished device is “a returned device”. You also stated that (ii) returned devices are “purchased new and returned the next day after opening the box”, implying returned devices have not been used. This is quoted from your own message that I replied to:



Statement (i) is not backed up by anything communicated by Apple, which I pointed out in my previous reply, by asking you where Apple says this. You agree now that they don’t, so nothing supports your statement.

Statement (ii) is simply untrue. Not all returned devices have been returned “the next day” and nothing stops people from using a device “after opening the box” and then returning it, meaning returned devices can have been used. It’s also very likely by the way.

In my reply to your previous message I simply pointed out both errors. It still stands.

I did not state that refurbs are only returns. Just that returns are also in the refurb chain. Trade ins and parts from other devices accepted back under warranty, obviously, also are in the pipeline.

My statement about the legal definition of new does not need to be supported by a statement by Apple. It is is not legal to sell a used device as new. It is not legal to present a used device as new. That is fraud.

This thread started with a point that Apple selling refurbs for less than new was proof that Apple does not believe that the refurbs are functionally as good as new. I pointed out that there was no correlation between refurb pricing and "new." Apple could, if they wanted to, price refurbs at the same price as new. That is perfectly legal. Now, everyone in the world knows that the refurb market is made up of trade-ins, rebuilds, and returns. All are "used" to some extent. I cannot think of anyone who would pay the same price for a refurb as they would for a new. I would agree that the devices on the refurb store are the absolute best of the used market. But all have to be reviewed, cleaned, batteries replaced, and allocated to either the refurb store, the warranty replacement chain, or the parts bins (assuming the device and components merit refurb status and not just given over to the recycle bot (forget its name)).

The fact that Apple sells the refurbs at an average 7% to 10% discount off new, includes the same 12 month standard warranty, and sells AppleCare on the devices would prove that Apple does in fact believe the refurbs are functionally like new and just as reliable as a new device.

 

[darngooddesign]

…

 

[chaosUnseen]

Sooooo… when a part breaks on your car… do you expect a new car? Number one, it’s a HUGE tech waste just appeasing people with new devices, 99% of the time it’s parts that can be replaced. Just like a car. When you destroy your phone with liquid, yes a reman phone is what you get. If it is the rare occasion you need a full unit swap under warranty, you retain your factory warranty. Therefore are covered. Imagine if they didn’t recycle - then your favorites like Rossman wouldn’t be in business. Man it’s sad to see the lack of thought around this. Imagine the junkyards with cars of this truly was a thing.. we’d have major chip shortages much worse than we see now. I want to see data before the flames start - SHOW me how god awful reman phones are. I’ll wait.

 

[chaosUnseen]

Also - it’s not always a reman device that you get from apple, a lot of times it’s unsold brand new inventory in the box. Research a serial number and tell me I’m wrong. Because I’m not. The fact is they WARRANTY the device is accordance with the factory warranty or apple care agreement - so yes they DO acknowledge the device to be good as new or they wouldn’t warranty it as such.

 

[cicalinarrot]

Of course there is a sensors in the Sim slot; in fact, Apple has sensors everywhere water can get in the phone.

iPhone Water Damage Indicator Locations for All Models

Locate iPhone Water Damage Indicator Locations Both Externally and Internally on Your Device. Picture examples of water sensors for all models and locations

harvestcellular.net

And if you take the cynical view that the liquid sensors are there to prevent warranty repairs/replacements, its in Apple's best interest to place the sensors anywhere liquid could get in the phone. Of course, since Apple water proofed their phones the chances of liquid damage have been significantly reduced.

For as much as I remember there's no sensor in the sim slot in recent phones, there's one on the screen, that can be replaced, in that area, no sensor in the dock connector, no sensor in the audio jack in the latest models that had one. An 8 years old article with a few picture is a pretty naive way to prove your point.

Phones fall, break and bend, glass shatters, glue and water resistance rubber get old, damaged or removed during repair.
I don't care how safe a motherboard can be from those damage, there are still bad possibilities that just aren't there with a new motherboard. Their claim is still clearly false.

 

[Septembersrain]

Eh? I found the refurbished units have always been better than new. I guess not everyone agrees. The wording allows for lawsuits I suppose.

 

[deevey]

Every warranty repair on my car has been with ordered new parts. Haven’t been many of them though

so car dealers will replaced defective parts with other defective parts from junked cars in the lot? I doubt that

No, but they'll replace defective parts with working parts from junked cars. Which is exactly what Apple is doing.

Why would they replace an engine head with a new one, for example, when they might have a refurb one from a car that had chassis issues with only a couple thousand miles on it.

 

[havokk]

So you think Apple, the actual company, takes liquid damaged devices and brushes them off to send back out as replacement devices?

Yeah ... I mean, nobody "reworks" a logic board. In general, refurbished has had literally everything that has been / could have been or might be damaged replaced. Far better than sending in your iPhone / iPod / iPad and just having the "malfunctioning" part replaced. Comes down to greedy lawyers and people to stupid to really understand ... and, yes, I've purchased refurb and received refurbished as replacement for malfunctioning "new" product. I've also been an Apple Reseller and Specialist for many, many years ... but, whatever ...

 

[darngooddesign]

For as much as I remember there's no sensor in the sim slot in recent phones...

You don't have to remember, that link covers water sensor locations.

 

[cicalinarrot]

You don't have to remember, that link covers water sensor locations.

No it doesn’t, it’s an article from 2013.

 

[KindJamz]

No, but they'll replace defective parts with a unknown history part from junked cars. Which is exactly what Apple is doing.

Why would they replace an engine head with a new one, for example, when they might have a refurb one from a car that had chassis issues with only a couple thousand miles on it.

Yes I would be upset if they installed a used part, Because it’s used and you have no idea what has happened to it before.

fixed your bolded part for ya