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In the coming months, Google and Apple will work to enable a broader Bluetooth-baed contact tracing platform by building this functionality into their underlying platforms.

What puzzles me here is “In the coming months” bit. According to the current forecasts, most of the world should be off the Covid-19 infection peaks by then. So what is the point of putting all this Apple-Google effort in? Are they expecting Covid-19 to become a permanent thing, like a super-flu, hitting the world on a regular basis from now on?

Just because we are not at peaks doesn’t mean that it’s safe to move around. There will be people out there still getting sick and transmitting the disease, and there will be more peaks down the road.

What contact tracing allows is that if someone tests positive, everyone they were in contact with can go get tested and quarantine themselves while they wait for the answer. This way, the chain of spreading is cut off.
 
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The current idea is that each country's CDC equivalent runs the necessary server, and to submit a set of IDs, you need a one-time password, which your doctor can generate for you.

All the CDC gets is your random IDs, without information about you, your location, or anything else.

And even if the evil deep-state CDC asked your ISP to tell them who pays for the 4G or home WiFi that belongs to the IP address who submitted a few random IDs, all they'd learn is that John Doe reported himself as infected with the help of a doctor who is, presumably, already required to submit information about the infection to the CDC.
So the only way someone could log that they have COVID-19 in this app/server would be via a doctor?
 
In order to develop immunity to a pathogen, your body first has to be infected, and survive the resulting disease.

If this were to happen with COVID-19, the death toll in the U.S. alone would be in the millions, because the health care system would quickly be overwhelmed due to the exponential growth of diseases.

This is trivially proven by just looking at, say, Italy, where exactly that happened, and hospitals had to triage patients.

The point of the shutdown that's happening in essentially every country around the world is to prevent precisely this overload from occurring.

I really am surprised that there are still people out there who don't understand this. Maybe it's because exponential growth is such a hard to grasp concept for humans.

Given the fact that you oversimplified what transpired in Italy and other effected areas. Let’s get something correct, yes a person who gets infected may fall ill or be asymptomatic. People who do fall ill may recover and some may get severe. Those severe cases some may improve while other may still die. The patient who die may have had other medical complications that lead them to their tragic fate.

Do we know how many people with similar respiratory symptoms are from cold/flu and are being lumped and counted as COVID-19 cases. I suspect we do not.

Is the medical system being hammered, yes in some areas more so than others. That being said the healthcare system in any country is not perfect. There have been reports of people in Wuhan who have recovered and have been reinfected, there have been reports of false positives and negatives test results for which CDC is at fault.

Once again when an living thing contracts an invader it has a natura immune response to fight that invader. Bacteria and viruses for example mutate, other living things have immune systems to react and fight the invading organism. This is how nature work, please educate me as to what the purpose of the immune system is if an individual does not have a compromised health condition. For example everyone does not take the annual flu shot but even after they get infected with the flu their immune system naturally reacts to restore health and create antibodies, yes their survived without taking the flu vaccine.

So are you informing me that hundreds of not thousands of COVID-19 patients have weak immune systems and if so why? You make it sound like there have been no recoveries and this virus is a death sentence.
 
In the coming months, Google and Apple will work to enable a broader Bluetooth-baed contact tracing platform by building this functionality into their underlying platforms.

What puzzles me here is “In the coming months” bit. According to the current forecasts, most of the world should be off the Covid-19 infection peaks by then. So what is the point of putting all this Apple-Google effort in? Are they expecting Covid-19 to become a permanent thing, like a super-flu, hitting the world on a regular basis from now on?

No offsense, man, but what rock have you been hiding under?

All the current forecasts that model a curve of infection that does not lead to millions of deaths worldwide predict that it'll be years until we achieve herd immunity.

We can have this take a long time, by containing it, resulting in few people dying.

We can have this be over in months, by letting it spread rapidly. resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths in the U.S. alone. That's not speculation, it's a mathematical certainty, because diseases spread at an exponential rate.

The current plan, worldwide, is to slow this down aggressively in order to add capacity to hospitals, raise awareness in the population, implement things like this very contact tracing solution, and so forth. Then, the lockdowns worldwide can be lifted step by step.

All until a vaccine is available for everyone, which will be in 18 months at the earliest.
 
Stop spreading this nonsense. No personal data is shared in the proposed contact tracing solution. It is significantly stronger, privacy wise, than the alternative of in-person interviews for contact tracing, because that personally identifies people, which the app does not.

All your phone knows is that an ID it has seen via Bluetooth at some point in the past reported itself as infected. All your phone does in the event you report yourself as infected is share the random IDs it has used over the last few days, without their date/time, or location, or any other personal information.
You are right, my comment was "complete nonsense". No data ever collected by any government has ever been used to the detriment of the people who allowed that data to be collected. Thank you for clarifying that point. I will contact the American Scientific and ask them to print a retraction because the research they printed was contradicted by someone in a blog. IBM and their subsidiaries didn't have anything to do with processing Jews in concentration camps. I don't know where I came up with these wild theories but I will take your word for it that it never happened.
 
In the coming months, Google and Apple will work to enable a broader Bluetooth-baed contact tracing platform by building this functionality into their underlying platforms.

What puzzles me here is “In the coming months” bit. According to the current forecasts, most of the world should be off the Covid-19 infection peaks by then. So what is the point of putting all this Apple-Google effort in? Are they expecting Covid-19 to become a permanent thing, like a super-flu, hitting the world on a regular basis from now on?

My interpretation of your post is that you expect COVID-19 to just disappear after this initial wave of peak infection, and then life will revert back to how it was prior to this outbreak. Sorry to break the bad news, but it won't. Until there is more known about the virus, and a vaccine, our new normal is going to look a lot more like how life looks currently, than it will before the outbreak hit. There will continue to be additional waves of outbreaks all over the world, and then certain areas will need to undergo aggressive social distancing again. That's why this technology will be helpful in helping contain these additional outbreaks, until the world can be vaccinated in 12-24 months.
 
Please... Apple's entire reputation used to be based on high quality products. Well, we know that that ship has sailed and is now far from the truth. It's more recent "reputation" is based on millions that consider themselves trapped in the ecosystem, trapped in the nonsense of iMessage coloured bubbles, trapped by teenagers who must have an iPhone because their friends do, and those who don't research their options. Apple has been trashing its own reputation quite nicely by flogging defective devices at outrageous prices so this new dubious initiative is not going to help or hurt.

LOL. I can find a post with this complaint on MacRumors posted every year since the site started. Apple has always been doomed. Apple has always been past its golden age. Apple has always focusing on the wrong things. According to people here, at least. It’s reassuring to see MacRumors is staying consistent in this chaotic world.
 
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Another case: there are protests in Iran. Security services seed the protest with a few phones on agents. They report those phones infected, then arrest everybody who shows up for a test.

You mean the same Iranian security services who are able, authoritarian regime and all, to already get the personal details of every mobile device logged into cellular radio towers near said protest?
 
Another case: there are protests in Iran. Security services seed the protest with a few phones on agents. They report those phones infected, then arrest everybody who shows up for a test.
That could NEVER HAPPEN, Wombert said so. I'm not sure about why it would be impossible (seems very plausible to me) but Wombert knows it is IMPOSSIBLE to abuse this system that Apple and Google are putting together.
 
So the only way someone could log that they have COVID-19 in this app/server would be via a doctor?

That's the plan in most countries that are looking to implement this, yeah. Maybe it could be a lab as well. You need a test result in the first place to be certain, right?

So the lab, which is certified and has the ability to create a one-time password for you by getting one from the CDC (or whoever runs the servers), mails you back your results along with the password, and you can then submit your list of random IDs.

That prevents bored script kiddies from spamming the system with false positive.
 
until the world can be vaccinated in 12-24 months.

I'd add "If" in the front. There are more than 100 promising vaccines in development but there's no guarantee any of them will be usable for real application. :-(
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That could NEVER HAPPEN, Wombert said so. I'm not sure about why it would be impossible (seems very plausible to me) but Wombert knows it is IMPOSSIBLE to abuse this system that Apple and Google are putting together.

If you can't pair the ID with person, you can't abuse it. And for giving the personal part, you have to give consent in the app.
 
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You mean the same Iranian security services who are able, authoritarian regime and all, to already get the personal details of every mobile device logged into cellular radio towers near said protest?

There isn't universal registration of cell phones in Iran, and even in systems that do, use of fake IDs, stolen devices, or bribery is common. Further, this allows far more localized targeting by design. A cell site easily covers multiple blocks and buildings, whereas this allows meter-level tracking.

Besides, this solution brings people to you without having to track them down. It's easier to make people disappear that way, see Jamal Khashoggi.
 
That's the plan in most countries that are looking to implement this, yeah. Maybe it could be a lab as well. You need a test result in the first place to be certain, right?

So the lab, which is certified and has the ability to create a one-time password for you by getting one from the CDC (or whoever runs the servers), mails you back your results along with the password, and you can then submit your list of random IDs.

That prevents bored script kiddies from spamming the system with false positive.
Yeah I’m thinking there would have to be something to prevent misuse.
 
Those who are saying this is ok are the same people who said Covid-19 was “just the flu.”

You people are the reason we can’t have nice things.
 
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Given the fact that you oversimplified what transpired in Italy and other effected areas. Let’s get something correct, yes a person who gets infected may fall ill or be asymptomatic. People who do fall ill may recover and some may get severe. Those severe cases some may improve while other may still die. The patient who die may have had other medical complications that lead them to their tragic fate.

Do we know how many people with similar respiratory symptoms are from cold/flu and are being lumped and counted as COVID-19 cases. I suspect we do not.

Is the medical system being hammered, yes in some areas more so than others. That being said the healthcare system in any country is not perfect. There have been reports of people in Wuhan who have recovered and have been reinfected, there have been reports of false positives and negatives test results for which CDC is at fault.

Once again when an living thing contracts an invader it has a natura immune response to fight that invader. Bacteria and viruses for example mutate, other living things have immune systems to react and fight the invading organism. This is how nature work, please educate me as to what the purpose of the immune system is if an individual does not have a compromised health condition. For example everyone does not take the annual flu shot but even after they get infected with the flu their immune system naturally reacts to restore health and create antibodies, yes their survived without taking the flu vaccine.

So are you informing me that hundreds of not thousands of COVID-19 patients have weak immune systems and if so why? You make it sound like there have been no recoveries and this virus is a death sentence.

The virus is a death sentence for a small percentage of those infected, yes. Or at least they live with permanent damage to their lungs and must carry an oxygen bottle around for the rest of their lives. Because they have pre-existing conditions, because they're old, because their immune system is compromised, because they're smokers (!), because they're getting a cancer treatment, because they have diabetes (!), whatever.

Let's say, for simplicity's sake, that one percent of all people die. It's really irrelevant for the purpose of the discussion if we're using one percent, five percent, or 0.1%.

The R0 of this virus is somewhere close to 3, meaning while you have the disease, you on average infect three other people.

You infect three, first step of the spread. Each of these three infect another three. That's nine new infections in the second step. Nine people now infect 27 people in the third step. Those 27 infect 81. And so forth.

By the tenth step, you have ~60,000 new infections. By the 12th, ~530,000. By the 17th, ~129 Million.

It happens slowly at first, then suddenly all at once.

And now a percentage of these people dies.

If you have millions of people who are infected over a short period of time, then your mortality rate goes way up, because you don't have enough hospital beds, respirators (which often cause severe and permanent lung damage in COVID-19 patients!), ambulances, doctors, nurses, etc. Now you're getting a mortality rate of, say, 2%, or 4%, or 10%. That's what happened in Italy, and other places where the disease spread quickly without initial containment.

If you only have hundreds of thousands of people who are infected over the same period of time (because the disease is spreading more slowly), then the health care system doesn't get overwhelmed. It can treat all severe cases, save most of them, and you have a mortality rate of, say 0.1%.

I really don't understand why people are even debating this. There are enough examples, current and past, where exactly this happened. Be it the Spanish Flu, or the initial weeks of the outbreak in Wuhan, or the now slowly improving situation in Italy/Spain/France, or the current situation in New York City.
 
There isn't universal registration of cell phones in Iran, and even in systems that do, use of fake IDs, stolen devices, or bribery is common. Further, this allows far more localized targeting by design. A cell site easily covers multiple blocks and buildings, whereas this allows meter-level tracking.

Besides, this solution brings people to you without having to track them down. It's easier to make people disappear that way, see Jamal Khashoggi.

Hey, just trying to follow how the Iranian gov would utilise this.

So, they'd send someone into the crowd exchanging keys. Then mark that person as having COVID. The bit I don't get is the arrest those who come in for testing part. So they'd arrest everyone who thinks they have COVID? How are they narrowing this down to people at the protest?
 
I'll never understand why people are so trusting of government. Sooner or later all of this data and surveillance technology will fall into the wrong hands and when it does, with globalization / power consolidated as never before, there will be nowhere to escape to. There will be no nation to swoop in and save the day. When everything you say, eveywhere you go, every text message and email you send, every product you purchase, every person you associate with, every TV show and movie you watch, every website you visit, every app you download, every book you read is data mined such that those in power know you better than you know yourself, there will be no way to mount any sort of resistance. It's a shame so many people take this for granted / don't recognize the terrifying implications of this.
 
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Hey, just trying to follow how the Iranian gov would utilise this.

So, they'd send someone into the crowd exchanging keys. Then mark that person as having COVID. The bit I don't get is the arrest those who come in for testing part. So they'd arrest everyone who thinks they have COVID? How are they narrowing this down to people at the protest?

You wouldn't do this now, but during a quiet(er) period and geography. You could also filter by those who are negative, but also correlate with other records. And who cares if some innocents get caught up? Such is the nature of totalitarian regimes.
 
Agreed. For everyone who doesn't mind government tracking because they "have nothing to hide", PLEASE go read the introduction to the book "IBM and the Holocaust"
1. This isn’t tracking. 2. It’s not being done by the government. 3. If you have a phone, you can already be tracked, and this has been true for a long time.

Guys, please take off the tin foil hats. Numerous helpful posts in this thread have explained how this works, and it’s not what 90% of these posts assume it is.

I’ll say it again: unless you want to shelter in place until a pharmaceutical solution is available (fall at the earliest for an antiviral, if one can even be developed, and 12-18 mo for a vaccine), then this (testing and tracing) is what we’ve got.Otherwise, no matter how flat the curve is, covid is going to come back just like the first time as soon as we try to go back to normal.
 
You are right, my comment was "complete nonsense". No data ever collected by any government has ever been used to the detriment of the people who allowed that data to be collected. Thank you for clarifying that point. I will contact the American Scientific and ask them to print a retraction because the research they printed was contradicted by someone in a blog. IBM and their subsidiaries didn't have anything to do with processing Jews in concentration camps. I don't know where I came up with these wild theories but I will take your word for it that it never happened.

Nobody is disputing that IBM supplied technology that enabled the Nazis process the results of their 1933 census.

But the government is not recording information about you in this proposed contact tracing system. What you are saying is, indeed, "complete nonsense", because the technologies don't compare. The government is not recording your information, your location, or anything else.
 
Right. So the server now knows you've tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 (or at least you're claiming so). They don't yet know who you are, because to get your name, they have to get a court order, or be some authority (police, FBI, and so forth) that automatically has the powers to obtain personal information for an IP address.
We've already had cases in the US where the FBI was sent after whistleblowers. With the continued erosion or civil liberties everywhere (not just in the US), I have zero confidence that governments around the world will not sooner or later abuse this tool for other things than the pandemic.
But let's say the server was run by the government, and they could easily get this data... the thing is, a lab has already tested you positively for SARS-CoV-2 by analyzing your blood sample. Name, address, everything included.

Which is much more reliable information that just your address (which doesn't even necessarily identify you as an individual) that the government could obtain just as easily.
You are somehow forgetting the most important information they are potentially getting: a list of all the other people you have been in contact with, who can just as easily be de-anonymized.
Where exactly is the dystopian privacy nightmare here that leads to dissidents being rounded up and shot by "deep state" thugs in a dark alley?
China, Saudi Arabia, Russia, and more recently Hungary (an EU country), to name a few.
Just to make this very clear: this technology can not be repurposed in the future to perform, say, contact tracing of journalists and dissidents (in authoritarian countries where dissidents are a concept in the first place).
Of course it can. Even if you trust that it's purely opt-in today, it would only take a tiny code modification to change that, and you'd never know, especially if it's embedded deep in the OS.
 
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Hey, just trying to follow how the Iranian gov would utilise this.

So, they'd send someone into the crowd exchanging keys. Then mark that person as having COVID. The bit I don't get is the arrest those who come in for testing part. So they'd arrest everyone who thinks they have COVID? How are they narrowing this down to people at the protest?

They don't, because he doesn't understand the proposed system.

You get an alert that says "some person you recently crossed paths with registered as infected. Please shelter at home for the next 14 days and report to a doctor if you begin to develop symptoms."

If you develop symptoms, you go get tested, because you developed symptoms. Nobody will know you were alerted using that contact tracing app. Nobody except your phone will know you matched an ID that had been submitted to the server as infected.
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You are somehow forgetting the most important information they are potentially getting: a list of all the other people you have been in contact with, who can just as easily be de-anonymized.

"They", as in the CDC or whoever, are not getting a list of people you have been in contact with. They are just getting the IDs that your phone transmitted during the last few days. Other phones download these IDs (and all others that reported as positive) and compare it to the local list of IDs their phone has seen over the last 14 days.

Of course it can. Even if you trust that it's purely opt-in today, it would only take a tiny code modification to change that, and you'd never know, especially if it's embedded deep in the OS.

Please explain, exactly, how.

You mean by a code modification that Apple and Google perform to always send your IDs and location to, say, the government?

The exact code modification they could already be implementing today?
 
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Cell towers already know the locations of each SIM. Unless you have a burner SIM and you keep the phone off most of the time, they already know where you are. That requires a warrant, though.

Using this method, they can only track an ID for 15 minutes, and it's impossible to know which ID belongs to which person. That information never leaves the phone, so without physical access and a forced unlock, no one can directly bind the random IDs to a particular person.

In a big city, it's unlikely that they can bind a random ID to an actual person based on a 15-minute chunk that could be anyone in the crowd. However, in extreme rural areas, such as the Sierra Nevada, the Australian Outback, Siberia, with very low traffic, it may be a different story. If they have your license plate on a traffic camera, and only 2 other cars on the same camera, they can trace you, or at least put your journey together based on time stamps.

Or consider a small sleepy village with mostly old people, and one person moving in the middle of the night. There may be 1 or 2 other IDs moving along the same path. If anyone saw someone who looks like you, at least in theory you could be implicated while being innocent.

In a big city like San Jose, London, Paris, during the busy hours, I don't think most people have to worry about this. But in extremely remote locations during the middle of the night, there might be some privacy issues, even the 15-minute interval could turn out to be too broad.

Also when you flag yourself positive, you are flagging all your random IDs together. If this happens exactly at the same time, someone could use time stamps to potentially bind all IDs to the same person. To implement this correctly, flagging someone positive should introduce a random delay to the IDs, so they are not all flagged together exactly at the same time.
 
Frankly, if you think this is an invasion of your privacy, you should not own a smartphone nor should you use the internet. There are so many methods that you can be traced online or via your devices that adding this on top is of incredibly small significance to your traceability.

It's like worrying that you'll be tracked by your scent while recording 24/7 video of your current location.
 
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