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We as humans have always been exposed to pathogens this is a hypochondriac symptom, conditioning and society. Get ready for the AppleWatch app coming soon.
Yes we have always been exposed to pathogens. That does not make precautionary actions an automatic hypochondriac symptom. Real people are dying, people that I know. We are living at a time in history where we can combat these things better than ever. I'd much rather have that information, and be able to make informed decisions based on that information, than not.
 
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“No thanks, I’d rather get corona.“ ~Half this forum

People are also adults and can make a choice of risk. If you want to hide in your home until a proven safe vaccine is available then be it as YOU made that CHOICE not someone else. But while you do that don’t seek the services and aid of those that you mock.

Why are they afraid, making a choice for everyone? Moving vehicles cause death yet people choose to use it daily as the benefit outweighs the risk, which is higher compared to this virus. We can talk about other method that cause s great deal of needless death but that is a can of worms for another forum.
 
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People are also adults and can make a choice of risk. If you want to hide in your home until a proven safe vaccine is available then be it as YOU made that CHOICE not someone else. But while you do that don’t seek the services and aid of those that you mock.

This is bigger than you.

It's like getting the seasonal flu vaccine....you may not care if you get the flu, but you should still get the vaccine because it'll help us reach herd immunity, it'll help society protect people that cannot get the vaccine.


People need to look out for one another, not only look out for themselves.
 
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Yes we have always been exposed to pathogens. That does not make precautionary actions an automatic hypochondriac symptom. Real people are dying, people that I know. We are living at a time in history where we can combat these things better than ever. I'd much rather have that information, and be able to make informed decisions based on that information, than not.

Are you claiming that others here don’t know someone who has tested positive, severely ill or died. Stop playing the martyr card, if you want to sit at home then that is your choice until a vaccine is available. Because who know there are now claiming a second, third and forth wave to keep the masses under control and living in fear.

People die everyday of many things regardless of age, I don’t see these people caring about the consequences. Life is a gamble for everyone there is no sure bet.

The question is why are you afraid of death?
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This is bigger than you.

It's like getting the seasonal flu vaccine....you may not care if you get the flu, but you should still get the vaccine because it'll help us reach herd immunity, it'll help society protect people that cannot get the vaccine.


People need to look out for one another, not only look out for themselves.

I don’t think you understand how the influenza virus works, it mutates and depends on the strain. Even if everyone took the vaccine that was 100% effective in your utopian world, there are still people that it is not effective for.

Plus have you read some of the carcinogenic ingredients is those vaccines. Thank you for being a supportive viewer of Operation Mockingbird.
 
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I don’t think you understand how the influenza virus works, it mutates and depends on the strain. Even if everyone took the vaccine that was 100% effective in your utopian world, there are still people that it is not effective for.

What does that have to do with anything? Is this a reason to justify not getting the flu vaccine?
 
So i basically I opt-in, won‘t be exposing any private data, get notified when I was in proximity for a certain time with an infected person and can optionally let others know I’m infected, again fully anonymously. Now just assuming Google and Apple manage to nail this down with all the encryption, privacy and security needed, what’s the reason for not using it? Except maybe for battery life...
 
You don't need apps or anything else like this. Just use common sense. Wash your hands and don't touch your face and keep your distance from people with a cough. No need to give the government or anyone else more control over people. Like everything else this will pass but governments, companies will try to hold on to their new found powers indefinitely. There are still thousands of laws on the books from every major crisis over the last 200 years. The government(s) have more than enough power.
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Don't fall for all this B.S. people! These things won't do anything besides give the companies more information on the people they use it. If people just used common sense we would be fine.
 
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Don't fall for all this B.S. people! These things won't do anything besides give the companies more information on the people they use it. If people just used common sense we would be fine.

Do you really understand how the API is structured? Please explain how "companies" will know your identity? Please be specific on how they get that information.

The details of the API have been published, and they have improved since a fair bit. I am also sure that they will continue to improve.
 
This is bigger than you.

It's like getting the seasonal flu vaccine....you may not care if you get the flu, but you should still get the vaccine because it'll help us reach herd immunity, it'll help society protect people that cannot get the vaccine.


People need to look out for one another, not only look out for themselves.


You can take the shot if you think is going to "protect" you!

"herd immunity" seriously?

This vaccines do not guarantee (read the prospect) that you are going to be protected, actually most of the people who get the vaccines get the flu!

Also if you read the prospect you will see that they come with different risks...

This vaccines can't be mandatory...

I would recommend a healthy life style!
 
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What does that have to do with anything? Is this a reason to justify not getting the flu vaccine?

What are you the flu vaccine police? Are you going to report me to your authoritarian leaders, 50 cent army contributor. :eek::p;)
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What if you interact with people who don’t opt-in, are you keeping track of how many people you cross on a daily basis. People can barely remember common things and even with a phone end up forgetting. But go ahead when you do get infected either from a person or some other means the constant living in fear and anxiety will lower your immune system, be susceptible to disease and shorten your life and as a bonus spend more money on doctors, pharma, hospitals, mental health.

Hey good luck with your life choices. Live free or die.
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You don't need apps or anything else like this. Just use common sense. Wash your hands and don't touch your face and keep your distance from people with a cough. No need to give the government or anyone else more control over people. Like everything else this will pass but governments, companies will try to hold on to their new found powers indefinitely. There are still thousands of laws on the books from every major crisis over the last 200 years. The government(s) have more than enough power.
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Don't fall for all this B.S. people! These things won't do anything besides give the companies more information on the people they use it. If people just used common sense we would be fine.

I don’t understand the need to digitize and find technology as the solution for common sense things. I cannot believe people do not wash their hands or know how to wash properly or even cough in your elbow. Sounds like hygiene education at a younger age is more important than to go down this path. Maybe Apple and Google can create an app to remind people to wash their hand and for how long when using the toilet or coughing.
 
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Do you really understand how the API is structured? Please explain how "companies" will know your identity? Please be specific on how they get that information.

The details of the API have been published, and they have improved since a fair bit. I am also sure that they will continue to improve.

Do you understand circumventing? Ever wonder how App developers circumvent AppStore and iOS review process and have siphoned data, tracking, etc. People have too much faith in big tech companies to save them and find a solution for everything, brainwashed culture/generation.

Hacker are running scared of how airtight this all is. /s

There is no jailbreak for iOS. :rolleyes:

If only Apple would put this much effort into iOS, Mail.app and macOS.:p;)
 
Do you understand circumventing? Ever wonder how App developers circumvent AppStore and iOS review process and have siphoned data, tracking, etc. People have too much faith in big tech companies to save them and find a solution for everything, brainwashed culture/generation.

Hacker are running scared of how airtight this all is. /s

There is no jailbreak for iOS. :rolleyes:

If only Apple would put this much effort into iOS, Mail.app and macOS.:p;)
How would you circumvent this?
 
Right, so we should better use the government apps that unlike Apples and googles solution actually is a huge privacy nightmare? Apple and google put a lot of efforts into building privacy into this.

So rather than complaining at them you should thank them, because first and foremost it will allow for exposure tracing without compromising on privacy, but also -and that is very important- will reveal the true intentions of the governments... i.e. any government insisting on their own centralized database rather than using this API does apparently have other interests.

Can you give me an example of anything that Google has ever built privacy into?
 
I don’t disagree with your basic premises here— the system isn’t bad, there’s other ways to be tracked, etc. I do think that data with overlapping observations and a 5min correlation time is more trackable than uncorrelated data points, just as a matter of mathematics, but we don’t need to design that system here.

Fair point. It would be a fun exercise, though. But hang on to the idea of high density receivers across the US for a minute.

  • Questioning the methodology is not the same as denying the importance. Don’t assume there’s only one way to solve a problem, or that all good things must come with sacrifice. Zero sum mentality, or “we have to do something and this is something” approaches lead to worse outcomes than looking for optimal solutions.
  • Don’t assume it’s private because the companies are saying it’s private. We’ve already seen one instance (the key generation) where challenging that assumption has improved the solution.

I agree with this, and I hope my original post didn't imply otherwise. I would never defend security through obscurity, and I fully agree that we should "trust but verify". Robust challenges make both better designs and implementations. I'm looking forward to seeing what people find when they start sniffing the bluetooth messages. I expect nothing more that what has been disclosed, but by all means let's make sure that's the case. Regardless the outcome, as an engineer, I'd find the packet analysis interesting.

  • Don’t assume every crisis is best solved with reduced privacy protections.
  • Just because governments have other ways of tracking people doesn’t make it a good idea to provide more.

I don't think we need to compromise privacy to solve any crisis, and I definitely didn't say that. In this case, the point is that there is a way to get mathematically secure, and private, contact tracing, which would definitely be a benefit to society.

The point about preexisting methods is this: there are many messages on this thread saying the entire project comes from nefarious intentions hatched in secret government agencies. No matter how powerful, everyone has limits. Consider the high density receivers we touched on in the first paragraph. Sure, we could cover the earth with them, and maybe then you'd generate enough data to exploit. Of course, it comes with all kinds of risks (discovery, exposure, exploitation) and costs (build, deploy, maintain, backhaul, compute). So if "they" have the option of 1) just issue a blanket warrant for all mobile phones in a region over a period of time as they've been doing, or 2) embark on this massive undertaking to coerce global companies to do their bidding, spend massive amounts of money, and risk being caught, so maybe they can get all the phones in a region over a period of time, what are they going to do? Riffing on Occam, I'd say the easiest choice is the most likely.
 
Can you give me an example of anything that Google has ever built privacy into?
Some recent examples:
* They built the Advanced Protection program to allow everyone (but specifically celebrities and politicians) to strengthen their accounts against intruders.
* Google WiFi now supports WPA3 (even the original ones)
* Speech recognition ok android occurs completely offline, on-device
* When you make a stadia account, the setup flow asks a bunch of detailed questions to protect your privacy. “Who can send you a friend request? Who can see your online status? Who can see your friend list?” Everything is opt-in.

Can you give an example of products that didn’t have privacy built in?
 
Are you claiming that others here don’t know someone who has tested positive, severely ill or died. Stop playing the martyr card, if you want to sit at home then that is your choice until a vaccine is available. Because who know there are now claiming a second, third and forth wave to keep the masses under control and living in fear.

People die everyday of many things regardless of age, I don’t see these people caring about the consequences. Life is a gamble for everyone there is no sure bet.
Wow. You read all that into what I said? That explains a lot.

I like information, perhaps you don't. It tends to help even the odds when gambling though, so you might want to consider it. *shrugs* Your choice though.
 
How would you circumvent this?

🤦 I guess there is no such thing as Def Con and other hacking communities, no such thing as bug bounties, etc. Listen if you want to live in your utopian world and stop being naive you only have to look what has been done and what is to come.

Hackers around the globe are salivating to exploit this when released. When the general public finds out, they will act like this is the first time this sort of thing has happened as if it has never crossed their mind that people in utopia would do such a thing and to them because their are law abiding good citizen who pay their taxes on time. :rolleyes:
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Wow. You read all that into what I said? That explains a lot.

I like information, perhaps you don't. It tends to help even the odds when gambling though, so you might want to consider it. *shrugs* Your choice though.

May I suggest a one way ticket to an authoritarian regime as you are so fearful of pathogens. As a health and safety precaution please don’t venture into nature or interact with other humans and animals. Wear a bio-haz suit 24/7 and live in a confined (even
geo-fenced) area.

Why are you afraid of death? Ignoring the question does not make it irrelevant, we will all experience it, some sooner some later.

There are far more lethal diseases that we know off, we cannot go on the single premise of contagiousness. The fear mongers are behaving like once you catch it, you die. May I direct your attention to the number of recovered and asymptomatic cases.
 
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May I suggest a one way ticket to an authoritarian regime as you are so fearful of pathogens. As a health and safety precaution please don’t venture into nature or interact with other humans and animals. Wear a bio-haz suit 24/7 and live in a confined (even
geo-fenced) reas.

Why are you afraid of death? Ignoring the question does not make it irrelevant, we will all experience it, some sooner some later.

There are far more lethal diseases that we know off, we cannot go on the single premise of contagiousness. The fear mongers are behaving like once you catch it, you die. May I direct your attention to the number of recovered and asymptomatic cases.
Wow. Just...wow. Are you quoting my posts by mistake? Because I haven't said anything related to any of that. I'm going back to doing something productive now. Have a good day.
 
Wow. Just...wow. Are you quoting my posts by mistake? Because I haven't said anything related to any of that. I'm going back to doing something productive now. Have a good day.

Have a good day/night mate. Try living life with less electronic devices and enjoy nature it has proven to reduce stress and anxiety. :cool:
 
Yes, they’re making a respectable effort at privacy here, and I‘m happy to see this getting as much thought as it is. That said, though, the last revision was touted for protecting privacy, and now we hear that they’ve only now decided to move to random keys— and it’s still not clear how uncorrelated that is to user information. I’m not sure that it’s possible to truly make this private. If each key is being used for 5 minutes before updating, and a government puts listeners on every street corner, then it’s pretty straight forward to track an individual’s movements and identify them. It would be nice if every interaction was a one time code so there was less correlation in the information.

That’s the big difference between this and GPS— GPS is listen only, so nobody knows you’re using it. The app that is providing the UI for that GPS has the potential to forward that information (and there’s been a lot of uproar over that, actually). Still we have fine grained control over location services and can ensure an app only has that information when we want it to. This system is a beacon that emits everywhere you go without your intervention and without turning off.

I’m a bit bothered by the “save us, big tech!” mentality that’s developed— these are businesses and its not really their role to provide public health services. I also don’t know if there’s another solution rather than tracing everyone everywhere, but I’d hope people are looking for one because it’s really easy to just decide that we have to throw privacy out the window without thinking about it more deeply.

If it turns out that tracking individuals is the only safe way forward, then I’d much prefer this be a dedicated key fob that I can throw away when the crisis is over, rather than building this kind of tracking functionality into the OS of all my devices.

I found your response very thoughtful and well reasoned. I had actually thought the first revision of this had random keys so I was a bit surprised that that only came up in the second iteration.

However, if the key is changing randomly every 5 minutes a government with listeners on every street corner would only be able to to tie a series of keys together in sparsely populated areas. For example, I am walking down an empty street and emitting ABC123 as my random key. The government sensor detects my approach and departure and even direction of my departure since BLE can be used for that based on signal strength. Then I go out of range. Minutes later the second sensor on another street corner detects DEF456 is approaching. If traffic light cameras show only a single person walking or only a couple of people walking then they can know that ABC123 and DEF456 and eventually GHI789 are the same phone. But they still don't know who that is unless they trace back to the original home address. But for all that to go down, you would already have to be somebody who is under surveillance for them to know to bother looking at you and the problem get exponentially harder in crowded urban areas where there are 20 to 30 possible "next identifiers" for ABC123 and another 20 to 30 (or more) for each of those it does not take long for the graph to explode into a serious big data problem to try to track just one person, let alone a population.

So, if not for the opt-in requirement, I do see this being a problem when authorities are targeting a specific individual for tracking. Police could use this sort of scenario to track down bad guys. For example, an alarm goes off in a store on an empty street in the middle of the night. Police don't care what the bluetooth ID is, only care about ID's approaching from that store and departing away from the store and see where they might lead. At the same time, an authoritarian government could target somebody designated as an insurgent after they make a protest of some kind against that government. If they know the starting point and the streets are empty, then they can trace. However, in both of the above cases the person could opt-out of BLE contact tracing and maintain their privacy -- just like terrorists do when they opt-in to phone encryption and opt-out of iCloud backups.

The average person is not going to be targeted -- in fact the vast majority of them -- because it would take a very large population of authorities to target a large population of citizens. So for the rest of us, this is really good privacy. Targeted attacks can always invade privacy -- there is no way around that. In fact, every time you make a voice phone call the government may be listening because they have issued a warrant against you to wiretap. In fact, large swaths of voice calls are analyzed for key words and phrases and then targeted by governments to thwart terrorists attacks. I don't see this technology on any worse level for targeted attacks than what already exists today (including tracking your location with cell towers when targeted -- if only OJ Simpson had turned off his mobile phone).

Finally -- I love your idea of a key fob, but if I can shut this off whenever I want then I see no reason not to have it in my phone. The minute they take away the ability to opt-out (or the requirement to opt-in) then there is a much bigger problem here. Right now, I feel that with cell tower location tracking, voice call screening, wiretaps, traffic surveillance cameras and good old cloud based email, we have dealt with and accepted much greater threats to our privacy for general and targeted surveillance.

BONUS FUN FACT: Germany, France and the UK all want the identifiers stored in a centralized database rather than distributing the identifiers across people's phones. They essentially want the "sensors on the street corners" to be the smartphones that people are carrying so they don't even have to install sensors anywhere. A big reason I support this architecture is the decentralization of it -- centralizing it in government servers can be disastrous since it greatly increases the ability to data mine without targeting (i.e.: sensors are everywhere since they are everybody's phones) and it creates a central place for hackers to attack.
 
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in Germany. They are fighting over how to make sure to make an App that is also data privacy conform

The German government wants Apple and Google to store all those randomly generated anonymous handles in a centralized government database for data mining purposes rather than distributing them across everybody's phones. France and the UK are having the same privacy failure. Apple and Google are thankfully pushing back and refusing to do so and refusing to make BLE available to any app even when it is not running.
 
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The Swiss once again showed a measured, sensible approach. Keep the vulnerable and sick isolated, introduce wide scale testing but not shut everything down. I'll say it again, we are so comfortable and soft in our modern lives that we have been completely unable to gauge risk correctly.
The Swiss once again showed a measured, sensible approach. Keep the vulnerable and sick isolated, introduce wide scale testing but not shut everything down. I'll say it again, we are so comfortable and soft in our modern lives that we have been completely unable to gauge risk correctly.

I believe you mean Sweden, aren’t you?

Lots of people here mention that when office/factories open employers will track you in the one or other way. Since Volkswagen e.g. opens it factories already since last week at least they don’t do such a thing. There are mask requirements in certain areas and temperature controls at the gates. That’s it.

You can see some photos and details here: https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com...th-step-by-step-resumption-of-production-5961
 
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...


Facebook is also “JUST AN APP” they say.
Bad comparison.

If only they could work this hard together on a unified messaging platform. iMessage for all!
Google is pushing for RCS (the new messaging standard to replace SMS/MMS) and quite a few carriers world-wide are adopting it already. Apple was in talks to support RCS in Messages a year ago, maybe we'll see some news on that one in the next 1-2 years.

So i basically I opt-in, won‘t be exposing any private data, get notified when I was in proximity for a certain time with an infected person and can optionally let others know I’m infected, again fully anonymously. Now just assuming Google and Apple manage to nail this down with all the encryption, privacy and security needed, what’s the reason for not using it? Except maybe for battery life...
I'd guess battery life does not take that much of a hit. Bluetooth is pretty power efficient nowadays.

_______________

The amount of privacy warriors in this topic is quite surprising.

And to everyone going "what stops governments from tracking you with beacons" forget one thing not mentioned here: the system will never expose your list of tokens to anyone. It periodically checks against confirmed case tokens but even then, it wont expose your list of tokens to the check servers. No one knows you're ABC123 or BDE444, just your phone.
The information of which token was at which location is absolutely useless to anyone mining a list of tokens, because they can't just grab the list from your device to cross-match.
 
Let’s look at the estimated numbers of death here.

Remember these are from official sources and estimated but even the infection rate for SAR-CoV-2 will drop as some countries do not report asymptomatic cases, many not tested and error rates of tests etc.

May I interest you to live in an authoritarian regime nation for the rest of your days on this planet. Thank you for volunteering if you take up this offer and report to us how safe and healthy you are along with free speech you have been blessed with.

Your assumption that people use Gmail or Google is pathetic.
Thank you for standing up for what's right bro!!
 
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