Apple and Google Strengthen Privacy of COVID-19 Exposure Notification System, Targeting Next Week for Beta Release

[chucker23n1]

Similar to AirDrop but cross platform.

No, it's not even remotely similar to AirDrop.

AirDrop uses Bluetooth for device discovery, iCloud for authentication, and then ad-hoc Wi-Fi for transmission. I.e., it does use a server, albeit only for auth.

I suspect you do not work in this field. Pass granted.

I suspect you haven't even tried to skim the spec.

 

[code-m]

No, it's not even remotely similar to AirDrop.

AirDrop uses Bluetooth for device discovery, iCloud for authentication, and then ad-hoc Wi-Fi for transmission. I.e., it does use a server, albeit only for auth.



I suspect you haven't even tried to skim the spec.

In your previous post you stated:

No it isn't. There is no server-side processing in Apple/Google's proposed system. The processing is on your device.

Now you say it does use a server for authentication presumably, can you say for certain what information is being exchanged and/or stored and verified.

By the sounds of it, you are making assumptions. May I suggest strengthening your immune system and you will worry less about this virus.

 

[chucker23n1]

In your previous post you stated:



Now you say it does use a server for authentication presumably, can you say for certain what information is being exchanged and/or stored and verified.

Wha? You brought up AirDrop. AirDrop uses a server. Therefore, it is not similar.

 

[code-m]

Wha? You brought up AirDrop. AirDrop uses a server. Therefore, it is not similar.

Source

Brent Royal-Gordon, codesmith
Answered Dec 26, 2015 · Author has 1.9k answers and 7.9m answer views


In brief, AirDrop uses Bluetooth Low Energy to establish a low-power, low-bandwidth network with nearby devices. Each device on this network uses its Bonjour—that is, multicast DNS—daemon (mDNSResponder or, briefly, discoveryd) to advertise its presence.
AirDrop can theoretically work entirely via Bluetooth, but in practice, this would be very slow. So it usually creates a much faster peer-to-peer Wi-Fi Direct link between the two devices to transmit the actual file. All recent Apple Wi-Fi chipsets can quickly switch between two networks; AirDrop uses this to make sure that transmitting a file doesn't disrupt your connection to the Internet.
Because it uses all of these different things, AirDrop doesn't work when Bluetooth is off, when Wi-Fi is off, or when your Wi-Fi chipset is too old to support the fast switching feature.

 

[cmaier]

Source

Brent Royal-Gordon, codesmith
Answered Dec 26, 2015 · Author has 1.9k answers and 7.9m answer views


In brief, AirDrop uses Bluetooth Low Energy to establish a low-power, low-bandwidth network with nearby devices. Each device on this network uses its Bonjour—that is, multicast DNS—daemon (mDNSResponder or, briefly, discoveryd) to advertise its presence.
AirDrop can theoretically work entirely via Bluetooth, but in practice, this would be very slow. So it usually creates a much faster peer-to-peer Wi-Fi Direct link between the two devices to transmit the actual file. All recent Apple Wi-Fi chipsets can quickly switch between two networks; AirDrop uses this to make sure that transmitting a file doesn't disrupt your connection to the Internet.
Because it uses all of these different things, AirDrop doesn't work when Bluetooth is off, when Wi-Fi is off, or when your Wi-Fi chipset is too old to support the fast switching feature.

what is the point of this? This is nothing at all like how the exposure notification system works.

 

[chucker23n1]

Source

Brent Royal-Gordon, codesmith
Answered Dec 26, 2015 · Author has 1.9k answers and 7.9m answer views


In brief, AirDrop uses Bluetooth Low Energy to establish a low-power, low-bandwidth network with nearby devices. Each device on this network uses its Bonjour—that is, multicast DNS—daemon (mDNSResponder or, briefly, discoveryd) to advertise its presence.
AirDrop can theoretically work entirely via Bluetooth, but in practice, this would be very slow. So it usually creates a much faster peer-to-peer Wi-Fi Direct link between the two devices to transmit the actual file. All recent Apple Wi-Fi chipsets can quickly switch between two networks; AirDrop uses this to make sure that transmitting a file doesn't disrupt your connection to the Internet.
Because it uses all of these different things, AirDrop doesn't work when Bluetooth is off, when Wi-Fi is off, or when your Wi-Fi chipset is too old to support the fast switching feature.

Why are you mansplaining AirDrop to me when you were the one claiming AirDrop was similar to A/GCT?

 

[ghanwani]

What happens when the genetically-engineered dog people created by the government rise up to Kill us all?

I mean, if you’re going to buy into nonsensical paranoid delusions, you may as well go all the way.

BTW: if you get a “you’ve been exposed” message, and you don’t get tested and instead of quarantining you go to a “grocery store or a convenience store” knowing that you may be infectious, you are an ******. So I really don’t mind if someone says I can‘t enter their property if the app says I have been exposed.

You have a lot of faith in the code written by Google and Apple. May be look at the history of bugs.

Most of the tests available are not even 100% accurate.

Finally, there are different levels of exposure. Someone taking proper precautions cannot be treated as someone who isn’t taking proper precautions when exposed. And just because I have a test and I’m cleared means nothing because we don’t know how accurate the tests are.

I think you are just as delusional as you think I am, except you want me to give up my privacy so you can feel safe.

 

[len5]

No way would I ever use an app like this. I would need to get my head examined. Hopefully more people stop being scared and don't give into mass hysteria. Look at all the freedoms we gave up after 9/11. Those were supposed to be "temporary" but will go on forever. Wake up people. Don't roll over so easily.

 

[827538]

Do you have more details? I understood that they had also quite drastic measures. Friends of ours told us they were not allowed the leave Zurich (they were not under quarantine).

The information I got was from friends of ours also who live in Switzerland and Lichtenstein. I don't have anything other than what they told me but they would have no reason to lie.

 

[code-m]

Let me just say that you seem to be completely ignorant of how a highly infectious disease works and needs to be fought.

In average every person infected infects X other persons. If that number X is greater than 1 then the disease spreads exponentially. If the number is equal to 1 then the number of diseased and the daily death rate stay constant. If the number is less than 1 then the number of diseased and the daily death rate go down every week.

This is one tool that helps to reduce the number X. X is the average over 330 million Americans, or 500 million Europeans. Your "what if" about a friend with a dead battery is completely irrelevant. And a second ago you were too poor to buy a phone, and now you lend it to your mates. Idiots who think some imagined threat to their privacy is more important than anyone's lives keep the number X higher and cost lives.

Am I really the one who is ignorant, or was it not the WHO who parroted saying that there is no risk for human-to-human infection, no requirement to restrict international travel, etc or the CDC who stated no requirement for a face mask then maybe it is a good idea. These are just some contradictions from official public health agencies, WHO placed us into this global mess.

The R0 is still not know, but MERS has a 2.2-2.7 and I suspect COVID to be around the same. Remember that changes from region so I don’t understand where you are getting your info when nothing official is released.

Just by looking at the numbers, how has seasonal flu, cardiac failure, cancer, etc numbers dropping. Unless these are being lumped into CORVID numbers to bolster the deaths to align with projected numbers to keep the fear alive.

I was providing an example, but sure focus on one of my prior post examples about not being able to afford a phone.

Last but not least here is an example where your reasoning is to be questioned. If there are two people in a household and one person in infected then the other person will also get infected. But then again there are also “super-spreaders” for any virus so your understanding requires to be reassessed.

Since you are so naive, may I sell you some snake oil to treat COVID.
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Why are you mansplaining AirDrop to me when you were the one claiming AirDrop was similar to A/GCT?

You claimed AirDrop uses a server. But go ahead re-read your post.

 

[chucker23n1]

You have a lot of faith in the code written by Google and Apple. May be look at the history of bugs.

What kind of bug, though? The system doesn’t upload data.

What you’d need is an exploit to access the collected IDs, then a design flaw that lets you trace back the IDs to devices, and a way to upload this data somewhere from one of those devices. That’s a lot of ifs.

 

[code-m]

what is the point of this? This is nothing at all like how the exposure notification system works.

Read what the response was to, from forum member “chucker23n1” post.

 

[code-m]

No way would I ever use an app like this. I would need to get my head examined. Hopefully more people stop being scared and don't give into mass hysteria. Look at all the freedoms we gave up after 9/11. Those were supposed to be "temporary" but will go on forever. Wake up people. Don't roll over so easily.

Like a false flag attack, first release a problem, then create the hysteria and finally offer a solution. Initial intent achieved people’s civil liberties encroached upon, next expand its overarching powers and the masses have been preoccupied with some other crises. Rinse and repeat.

The supporter of this initiative are either naive never learn from history, but will gladly throw that three letter agency’s term of conspiracy theory.
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You have a lot of faith in the code written by Google and Apple. May be look at the history of bugs.

Most of the tests available are not even 100% accurate.

Finally, there are different levels of exposure. Someone taking proper precautions cannot be treated as someone who isn’t taking proper precautions when exposed. And just because I have a test and I’m cleared means nothing because we don’t know how accurate the tests are.

I think you are just as delusional as you think I am, except you want me to give up my privacy so you can feel safe.

Big tech can barely release annual OS upgrades without stability and security issues within a year or more of coding and testing and we expect this to be rock solid and airtight in what a month or less of coding with a beta test slated soon.

I am curious to see all those who install this and then experience some data breach or are always placed into quarantine due to errors in notification and tracking. They will be fed up of it due to their lives being disrupted that it will be deleted and then they can reflect on their moral high horse to do society a favour and just immigrate to an authoritarian regime.

Our service members made the ultimate sacrifice for our liberty and freedom only to be slapped in the face by the ones who are supporting this initiative. I wonder how many of them have any deployment experience.

 

[ghanwani]

This is one example why I care about privacy.

Couple mistakenly fined for posting old vacation photos during coronavirus lockdown

Australian authorities thought they nabbed coronavirus lockdown violators — only to find out the photos posted on social media were a year old. A South Australian couple was hit with a hefty fine f…

nypost.com

 

[simonmet]

It’s telling that it’s mostly governments pushing for this, not health agencies or independent health experts that aren’t employed by and mouthpieces for the government.

The risks in enabling and normalising this technology far outweigh its potential benefits; at least in countries that have the virus under relative control like Australia and NZ. New cases are already down to single digits some days despite thousands of tests and total deaths still < 100. Presumably the virus will be even more controlled by the time lockdowns are cautiously relaxed in a staggered way. Social distancing and limiting contact will be the new normal for some time to come.

Clearly a lot of people have more faith that this technology can control or somehow prevent infections than is justified. The government’s propaganda is working then for a sizeable proportion of people who aren’t looking at things critically and objectively.

 

[cmaier]

You have a lot of faith in the code written by Google and Apple. May be look at the history of bugs.

Most of the tests available are not even 100% accurate.

Finally, there are different levels of exposure. Someone taking proper precautions cannot be treated as someone who isn’t taking proper precautions when exposed. And just because I have a test and I’m cleared means nothing because we don’t know how accurate the tests are.

I think you are just as delusional as you think I am, except you want me to give up my privacy so you can feel safe.

Most of your post is a non-sequitor. If a test isn’t 100% accurate, so what? People participating in this would certainly like to know if they spent a half-hour with someone who tested positive, even if the test is only 95% accurate.

And that would have to be one HELL of a bug that randomly sent your personally-identifiable information to a random server, when the design says that NOTHING is getting sent to ANY server. Your theory is like saying “sure, mcdonald’s SAYS they are making hamburgers, but what if they screw up and grill a nuclear submarine?”

You clearly have no idea how software works.
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It’s telling that it’s mostly governments pushing for this, not health agencies or independent health experts that aren’t employed by and mouthpieces for the government.

The risks in enabling and normalising this technology far outweigh its potential benefits in my opinion; at least in countries that have the virus under relative control like Australia and NZ. New cases are already down to single digits some days despite thousands of tests. Presumably the virus will be even more controlled by the time lockdowns are cautiously relaxed in a staggered way. Social distancing and limiting contact will be the new normal for some time to come.

Clearly a lot of people have a lot more faith that that this technology can control or somehow prevent infections than is justified. The government’s propaganda is clearly working then for a sizeable proportion of people who aren’t looking at things critically and objectively.

THis is completely false. it is healthcare professionals who are pushing for universal contact tracing.
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This is one example why I care about privacy.

Couple mistakenly fined for posting old vacation photos during coronavirus lockdown

Australian authorities thought they nabbed coronavirus lockdown violators — only to find out the photos posted on social media were a year old. A South Australian couple was hit with a hefty fine f…

nypost.com

Nobody cares that you care about privacy. Our beef is with your silly idea that THIS PARTICULAR system has anything to do with invading your privacy, when NO INFORMATION CAN POSSIBLY LEAVE YOUR DEVICE unless you specifically choose it to, which ONLY happens if you test positive. And in that case, the ONLY information that leaves your device is a list of random numbers which your device generated over the last 2 weeks or so.

Oh no! The government is out to get me because I read a warning, clicked a button, and a set of random numbers which cannot be traced back to me was sent to a database!

 

[simonmet]

Tis is completely false. it is healthcare professionals who are pushing for universal contact tracing.

Not false. Governments are mostly the ones pushing for it. Please post examples of non-government affiliated health organisations and independent health experts pushing for creepy tracking apps in contrast to traditional contact tracing, which is still required anyway.

Oh and government chief medical/health officers do not qualify for the independent from government qualification.

Most of your post is a non-sequitor. If a test isn’t 100% accurate, so what? People participating in this would certainly like to know if they spent a half-hour with someone who tested positive, even if the test is only 95% accurate.

And that would have to be one HELL of a bug that randomly sent your personally-identifiable information to a random server, when the design says that NOTHING is getting sent to ANY server. Your theory is like saying “sure, mcdonald’s SAYS they are making hamburgers, but what if they screw up and grill a nuclear submarine?”

You clearly have no idea how software works.
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THis is completely false. it is healthcare professionals who are pushing for universal contact tracing.
[automerge]1587861483[/automerge]


Nobody cares that you care about privacy. Our beef is with your silly idea that THIS PARTICULAR system has anything to do with invading your privacy, when NO INFORMATION CAN POSSIBLY LEAVE YOUR DEVICE unless you specifically choose it to, which ONLY happens if you test positive. And in that case, the ONLY information that leaves your device is a list of random numbers which your device generated over the last 2 weeks or so.

Oh no! The government is out to get me because I read a warning, clicked a button, and a set of random numbers which cannot be traced back to me was sent to a database!

I care that he cares about privacy. I also care that you don’t.

 

[code-m]

THis is completely false. it is healthcare professionals who are pushing for universal contact tracing.
THis is completely false. it is healthcare professionals who are pushing for universal contact tracing.

To my knowledge healthcare professionals look for guidance from the CDC.

Source.

Given the ongoing transmission of COVID-19 in communities across the United States and the role that asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic individuals with COVID-19 play in transmission, the feasibility and benefits of formal contact tracing for exposures in healthcare settings are likely limited and this guidance is being archived. No further updates are planned.

Governments:

New York
Washington
California

Oh no! The government is out to get me because I read a warning, clicked a button, and a set of random numbers which cannot be traced back to me was sent to a database!

Please confirm once you have immigrated to an authoritarian regime. Let us know how safe and healthy you are and have freedom of speech without censorship. We look forward to your experience.

I hear with your MR forum experience you will be a prime candidate for employment in the “50 cent army“ where you can post here to your hearts delight and earn a livable wage.

 

[cmaier]

Not false. Governments are mostly the ones pushing for it. Please post examples of non-government affiliated health organisations and independent health experts pushing for creepy tracking apps in contrast to traditional contact tracing, which is still required anyway.

Oh and government chief medical/health officers do not qualify for the independent from government qualification.



I care that he cares about privacy. I also care that you don’t.

I do care about privacy. But this app doesn’t implicate my privacy AT ALL. *NO* information about me will ever leave my phone. Ever.

Even if I test positive, and then voluntarily CHOOSE to put that information into the system, the only information that goes into the system is a list of random numbers that is in no way traceable to *me*.

When someone tells me what personal information of mine is risked by this app, then I will care. But as someone who read the spec and who codes, there is nothing here that i worry about.

 

[code-m]

I do care about privacy. But this app doesn’t implicate my privacy AT ALL. *NO* information about me will ever leave my phone. Ever.

Even if I test positive, and then voluntarily CHOOSE to put that information into the system, the only information that goes into the system is a list of random numbers that is in no way traceable to *me*.

When someone tells me what personal information of mine is risked by this app, then I will care. But as someone who read the spec and who codes, there is nothing here that i worry about.

Many companies dealing in the digital space participate in Def Con. Some of these companies also have big bug bounties, Apple being one of them. If Apple is not 100% sure of its own software (macOS, iOS, etc) and no software is 100% secure and bug free, dealing with individuals health records is very serious business.

I am sure with Apple AppStore and Google PlayStore stringent app review process one would be safe to assume that no vulnerabilities exist, however we are constantly reminded this is not the case.

If you prefer to live in fear in quarantine that is your choice. The only thing this will cause is anxiety, fear, hypochondria and nocebo for most and that does not help employers, the health system and the economy as errors in location reporting have happened. If you have blind faith in Apple and Google that is your choice but I assume you are in the minority as most people are stressed as it is with constant notifications and need to just unplug. Understood, if you want it you are free to leave and give up the freedoms you enjoy.

 

[ghanwani]

Here is another example of how this fails:

'I want Plan A to work': COVID-19 tracking app could be compulsory

www.9news.com.au

"Mobile phone tracking software could be compulsory if not enough Australians voluntarily download the application to help in coronavirus case tracing."

Starts out being voluntary, ends up being required. And this is the camel's nose. Once we go down this path there is no going back. Once in place the tracking mechanism will be (mis)used in many different ways.

 

[cmaier]

Here is another example of how this fails:

'I want Plan A to work': COVID-19 tracking app could be compulsory

www.9news.com.au

"Mobile phone tracking software could be compulsory if not enough Australians voluntarily download the application to help in coronavirus case tracing."

Starts out being voluntary, ends up being required. And this is the camel's nose. Once we go down this path there is no going back. Once in place the tracking mechanism will be (mis)used in many different ways.

How? You keep alluding to some parade of horribles, but how can this be misused? The Apple/Google proposal can;t track you. It is incapable of knowing where you have been. No information about you is collected. What, exactly, is it you are afraid of other than “bad stuff” that you can’t enumerate?

 

[code-m]

Here is another example of how this fails:

'I want Plan A to work': COVID-19 tracking app could be compulsory

www.9news.com.au

"Mobile phone tracking software could be compulsory if not enough Australians voluntarily download the application to help in coronavirus case tracing."

Starts out being voluntary, ends up being required. And this is the camel's nose. Once we go down this path there is no going back. Once in place the tracking mechanism will be (mis)used in many different ways.

Another potential flaw I see is that people will have burner phones with this and leave it at home or work, are they going to use police services to enforce this rather than investigate real crime.

This sounds like high school, where we need a hall pad during class hour.

 

[cmaier]

Another potential flaw I see is that people will have burner phones with this and leave it at home or work, are they going to use police services to enforce this rather than investigate real crime.

This sounds like high school, where we need a hall pad during class hour.

Nobody is talking about arresting anyone. But do your damned civic duty, and stay the hell home if you’ve been exposed to someone who tested positive (or get yourself tested, and if it’s negative, do what you want).

And business owners and private individuals have every right to deny you entry onto their property if you refuse to participate.

 

[code-m]

Nobody is talking about arresting anyone. But do your damned civic duty, and stay the hell home if you’ve been exposed to someone who tested positive (or get yourself tested, and if it’s negative, do what you want).

And business owners and private individuals have every right to deny you entry onto their property if you refuse to participate.

I have served, deployed and pay my taxes, I don’t need a lecture on civic duty from anyone. I have earned my stripes and medals. Have you served and deployed. I don’t think you understand how the antigen and antibody tests work. Just because you receive a notification of being in contact with an infected that does not mean both of you are not asymptomatic or have antibodies.

I tested negative, what have you tested? That does not mean I am not asymptomatic or my antigen result did not meet the testing threshold to be positive. I simply prefer not to live in fear unlike you have demonstrated. Society has bigger problems to be concerned with and you are worried that your immune system is unable to fight a virus. Brother you have bigger problems than this virus once the cat is out of the bag. But go ahead and live in your utopian world or hide in the woods so you can be safe from the evil virus. The rest of us have bigger problems then constantly be reminded by the Government, Public Health and Media and now you want constant reminders on our phones.

Those businesses loss, no skin off my back. If more people refuse to participate, businesses will adjust accordingly.

BTW, first it’s a warning then a fine then monitored visits at home.