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snahabed said:
Seems to me that Apple is making a pretty big bet that Real is going to die off.

I think Apple needs to focus on more HP-like deals. Especially with Sony.

i don't think that Apple is thinking that Real will die off, more over that Real doesn't matter, and more to the point that MS probably won't deal with Real eather. It's a little like two people in a sword fight and when the bigger one knocks the other down and has a sword pointed at the smaller one's throught, then suddenly saying 'hey, let's be friends!' What real incentive does MS have to take Real? Not much. Maybe, if Real would drop all litigation against MS, but Real stands to profit more from lawsuits against MS than it does from partnering with them to offer music downloads.

Also, let's keep in mind that the HP iPod has not yet been released, so we don't know how successful that move is going to be. It might very well be that these Blue iPods sit on the shelves.
 
Real Networks and the Microsoft myth

The media has hyped any number of new entries to the online music field. Most of them were supposed to have cut into Apple's online sales. At least one of them (WalMart) was supposed to have 'destroyed' Apple. None of this occurred. The media (constitutionally incapable of admitting that it doesn't know what it's talking about) now paints Microsoft as a looming threat that will... well, you know.

An insightful look at Microsoft reveals that it only leads in ONE area: operating systems (and some related software, like Word, Excel and Internet Explorer). Where it has ventured into other areas, MS has spent a great deal of money to finish second.

For example: the X-Box. Second to Playstation.

In the business of selling online images? Corbis, second to Getty.

Let's not forget that years ago, MS' online services were going to crush AOL (they didn't - although AOL has since collapsed under its own weight. A more accurate comparison would be: is MS' online network the dominant means for accessing the web, as AOL once was? The answer is - not hardly.)

PDA's? Second to Palm.

There probably are instances beyond the desktop where MS is in fact number one, but in the arenas where they felt the greatest need to contest, they have fallen short. In some cases, they've withdrawn altogether. It is also true that MS has engaged in some dubious anticompetitive pratices which have held back innovation in some areas. But they will be unable to compete, in this instance, through the same means by which they undermined smaller players. Apple is too big, and their hold on this market too established, for that to work. (Even if they COULD destroy Apple, would they WANT to? It only brings up the monoploy spectre again.)

The means by which MS achieved desktop dominance was simply that most hardware would not work without MS software. Since every business wanted a computer that worked with every other business computer, MS got its cut. But they never had a BETTER product (as Apple users will fervently attest). The point is, MS cannot apply this same advantage to taking control of the online music market. Anyone who buys a Windows computer HAS to pay royalties to MS, that's built into the price. But that does not mean the Windows user has to use MS' music system.... especially if one buys an HP. (Smart alliance on HP's part, identifying itself with a winner.)

Apple has worked out a better product, and the marketplace has voted for it. Not just the "creators" market, this is not like the Mac situation. This product, the iPod has cut a wide and deep swath for itself and is ripe for expansion (more on which later). To assume MS money alone can bridge the gap is to not understand MS' history in most marketplaces. No, MS cannot shape a monopoly on this product. Nor can they cut Apple off at the pass, as they have done to others. Nor will undercutting the service pay off (WalMart is making little headway). MS has to build a better product, and they will fail for the same reason they have failed in other markets: because you cannot innovate and copy at the same time.

On the other hand, if MS does manage to build a better product, that's great. Choice is good. Competition drives innovation. Apple knows what the iPod is doing for its bottom line. It hasn't tended to stand pat, at least not in recent years, and it seems to have a good feel for what can be brought to market.

I could not agree more with all posters about the absolutely sleazy nature of RealNetworks. Jobs, no fool, sees this as well. I'm sure if he does cut a deal he will maintain the upper hand. I would venture that one condition levied would be a time limit on the agreement. After that period, if Real has not played nice, Apple pulls the rug out and Real is that much further behind in making headway with a needed ally. Real is certainly not at all in the drivers' seat, and they want desperately (the deperation is seen in their implied 'threat') to partner with a winner. MS at this point is an unknown - or maybe not. Maybe Real understands the second-class status of most of MS' business ventures.

The iPod will soon expand its base on iPhoto and the huge number of digital photos floating around that no one will ever have the patience to print. People will accept the tradeoff of a small screen - they do so today on their cellphones. They'll dump their family pics and home movies AND their music on the next generation of a device they're already familiar with. (Yes, it'll kill the batteries quicker but that's another tradeoff people will accept to carry hundreds of images, and battery life will improve eventually.) In fact, some clever 3rd party marketer will quickly come up with a way to dump those cel phone images on the iPod in the user's OTHER pocket. Cool.

MS is a giant, but that won't make them top dog in an emerging field. It rarely has before, despite the fawning, unknowing press. MS dominates when they have a monopoly or can buy or in another way pre-empt the competition. Otherwise, they finish second or out of the running. In this horse race, it's Apple#1, MS (probably)#2, Real (and everyone else) a distant third. Second place is acceptable for MS (it'll HAVE to be), but Real can't afford to keep slipping. Don't think Steve doesn't smell the fear, just like he did with Disney.
 
s10 said:
-If Sony will become the big competitor? They seem to have lost their touch for innovating and successfull hardware lately, except maybe Digital Still Cameras.

-Windows and Office are the only really succesull products they have to offer. On all other fronts, games, handheld and phones, entertainment systems, servers they are not very successfull, so why should their Music store be successfull? They cannot build it in the system; they wont be allowed to do so.

You're talking Sony?? The Sony Palm-based handhelds are the top selling, and highest rated Palm-based devices, not to mention, they have done some pretty amazing stuff with them.

On the Microsoft note, MS handhelds have been doing very well. With the introduction of the Pocket PC, Palm and MS have been going head-to-head when it comes to numbers. True they don't have a monopoly, but that does not mean that Pocket PC isn't successful.

Why would a Windows Music Store be very successful? Many reasons, not the least of which would be MS's power of influence to band all the stores using wma into a single collective. Another good reason? Micrsoft's marketing engine. They may not dominate the market, but they will be successful. Don't get the two confused.
 
Thanks jtfaria

That's a very interesting analysis - I agree with your argument - it's by no means certain that Microsoft will dominate with their music store.

Whether they dominate with their Windows Media DRM format however is another matter altogether - they already have quite a momentum behind it, and Apples current lead, large as it may be, is still based upon a very imature market with very low volumes of sales compared with traditional CD sales. As the market grows, so will the investment from the big players. If the dotcom collapse and the steady dotcom growth that has followed has taught us anything, it's that first mover advantage does not necessarily count for much. The race has hardly started - Apple could easily lose its early lead.

Also, remember that we still have Palladium on the horizon, which could lock DRM purchasers into a proprietory Microsoft hardware platform and potentially lock Apple out.
 
irmongoose said:
Ha ha! This RealNetworks guy is like a modern enterprise version of Commodore Perry!

"Yes, we come on friendly terms, and we want to have a good relationship with you. Why are you so afraid of opening up? You have something we want, and we can give you something you need. But beware, if you don't agree with us, we will be forced to take up violent means to resolve the matter."

I give this guy a thumbs down. Who the hell does he think he is? Threatening Apple is not how you do business with Steve. Even I know that! Stupid guy...
I am a disabled Man and I type with a stick on my head and I have an old Imac keyboard with the on button. Will this first generation keyboard turn on a G5 destop?



irmongoose
 
Ethics

What came to my mind today was: Suppose I would buy a Sony CD and I could only play the CD on a Sony CD player! If Apple does reject the decent request of Real to share what should be an open DRM standard, Apple will be operating at the same low disgusting level as MS. I always hoped that Apple would show more ethics. But maybe I am only naive, and I should know that in business there are no ethics? :(
 
mr . jobs have a good chance of meeting at this weeks NAB conference. Rob Glaser, Chairman and CEO of RealNetworks will give a keynote on sat and apple will announce something big on sun. I doubt apple's announcement will have anything to do with real, i'm just saying they will be at the same place at the sametime. who knows. Officially, apple hasn't said no to Realnetworks. I hope apple partners with them; it will be a good move.
 
oingoboingo said:
But there is still no denying Real Player is a stinking piece of crap...
What problem have you had with RealOne Player for Mac OS X? It's a drag-install, Mac-native, optimized for Alti-Vec, and uses hardware video acceleration.
 
grobbins said:
What problem have you had with RealOne Player for Mac OS X? It's a drag-install, Mac-native, optimized for Alti-Vec, and uses hardware video acceleration.

yes, and MUCH more prone to 'network congetion' than eather quicktime or WMP. Not to mention it's not a simle download like quicktime or WMP, you have to jump through hoops. Finally, there was fiasco a while back where you had a really hard time finding a free version of the player.

Back in the day, Real was cool, but now I'd much rather format my video streams in Quicktime or Windows Media. I use Windows media when I want a reall small file size, and smaller resolution, and Quicktime when I want a high resolution and can be viewed full screen without giant pixals. Sorry Real, there just isn't much of a place for you anymore.
 
I think Apple should partner with Real..

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frankly said:
You are making the completely incorrect assumption that people are basing their purchase of an iPod on what music service it supports. The bottom line is that no matter what you think the iPod has been and remains the biggest selling MP3 player. In fact, Apple sold more iPods in the quarter that just ended than they did in their record setting quarter that ended in December. Hello, they had a 909% increase over the same quarter a year ago and it doesn't show any signs of slowing down.

People want the BEST MP3 player. Period. And the best MP3 player is still the iPod.

Later, Frank

Yes... the iPod is the best MP3 player right now. Yes... iTunes is the #1 music service online right now. Yes... people buy the MP3 player 1st then consider the music service... right now. However, trust me on this, it's not going to be that way forever. Apple *NEEDS* to open up, if they want to remain dominate in the digital music scene.

Eventually, people will want the ability to "shop around" and not be stuck with one source. Don't think so? Think about DVD players. How would you feel if DVDs followed the "apple model?" Do you think DVD's would have achieved the amazing "jump in popularity" of only the DVD player could be tied to ONE store? Heck no. Unfortunately, this is the mentality and methodology that Apple is using right now. In the long run, it's not going to have any legs. Eventually, people will want to find the "cheapest" source to buy their music. Eventually, the music player will hold less importance over the actual music itself. People want a player that plays the music they want to hear, not the other way around.

w00master
 
w00master said:
Yes... the iPod is the best MP3 player right now. Yes... iTunes is the #1 music service online right now. Yes... people buy the MP3 player 1st then consider the music service... right now. However, trust me on this, it's not going to be that way forever. Apple *NEEDS* to open up, if they want to remain dominate in the digital music scene.

Eventually, people will want the ability to "shop around" and not be stuck with one source. Don't think so? Think about DVD players. How would you feel if DVDs followed the "apple model?" Do you think DVD's would have achieved the amazing "jump in popularity" of only the DVD player could be tied to ONE store? Heck no. Unfortunately, this is the mentality and methodology that Apple is using right now. In the long run, it's not going to have any legs. Eventually, people will want to find the "cheapest" source to buy their music. Eventually, the music player will hold less importance over the actual music itself. People want a player that plays the music they want to hear, not the other way around.

w00master

So why cant Apple take advantage of their market leadership, stick with what they are doing with the aim of tying up say 30% of the market for iPod and music store sales? That is a massive market share and worth billions in the long run. It isnt the whole market by any means, but they maybe think they would be more secure in the long run with the tied up model than trying to be all things to all people.

Also if the music is going to determine what player people buy, being market leaders now, why shouldnt Apple be able to improve iTMS and be the best store for choice and price, keeping iPod an ever popular choice?
 
billyboy said:
So why cant Apple take advantage of their market leadership, stick with what they are doing with the aim of tying up say 30% of the market for iPod and music store sales? That is a massive market share and worth billions in the long run. It isnt the whole market by any means, but they maybe think they would be more secure in the long run with the tied up model than trying to be all things to all people.

Just like Apple's overall share... each year, it gets smaller and smaller. Unfortunate? You bet. Fortunately with OS'es (if that's even a word), a person can still extend the life of their machine running a "unpopular" OS. With a music player, it's different. If you only have one option to "shop" for your music online for your player, whereas all other players can buy everywhere else... how are you going to feel about your music investment? Do you know who tried this before? Sony. It was called beta. Guess what? Beta died as a format for the general public. Sure, at the time, Beta was better than VHS, but the reason why it failed was because Sony had closed it off (only offering limited "partnerships" with other companies), hence movie distributors stopped releasing their movies in the Beta format and went with VHS. Guess how those owners who owned a Beta video player felt? I don't want this to happen with the iPod I had purchased.

billyboy said:
Also if the music is going to determine what player people buy, being market leaders now, why shouldnt Apple be able to improve iTMS and be the best store for choice and price, keeping iPod an ever popular choice?

I'm not saying iTMS shouldn't improve. Apple SHOULD improve it even more. More music, more options, better prices. But, if there's little to no competition in the market, how much is Apple REALLY going to improve iTunes? Do you really think Apple would improve iTMS as much as if there were competition? I doubt it.

w00master
 
I'm not sure it's fair to say that because there are other people trying to do what Apple is doing with iTunes music store that apple will lose any significant market share.

Napster is an also ran who is clearly looking for publicity. They are not the competition at all for the iTunes store. The only real competition is Microsoft convincing independent artists to open their own WMA based stores with exclusive content.

Apple is the only one who has the whole end to end solution. They have the store, they have the mp3 player, they write their own juke box software. Not only do they have the store, but their store dominates the market. Not only do they have the MP3 player, but their MP3 player dominates the market. They have the patent on the scroll wheel, which gives the iPod a huge advantage over the knock offs. What other MP3 player allows you to scroll through thousands of songs in a controlled and continuos motion?

How does anyone else really compete with that? It's not like it's hard to get to the iTunes store to buy music. Nobody's going to build a store that's at a more convenient place than built into the juke box software.

It's not like computers, where someone can make something "good enough" and sell it for 1/3 the price. There is a lower bound on what can be charged for online music sales. How many people are going to by a inferior MP3 player, use an inferior juke box program, all just to save a few cents/song.
 
oh, and even if there were no competition, Apple has strong motivation to improve what they are doing because they can grow this market by orders of magnitude over where it is right now. 50 million songs in a year can become 500 million can become 5 billion. Somewhere between teh 500 million song mark and the 5 billion song mark, online music sales replace CDs as the dominant music distribution.
 
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