Krrill said:
I am afraid beign new around here you may not have noticed that threads can continue in the face of all logic 
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Apple and RealNetworks Alliance?
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I am afraid beign new around here you may not have noticed that threads can continue in the face of all logic Can the tide turn against MS?
The interesting thing here is what people are saying about this could hurt Microsoft, and any chance to hurt them should be taken ;-).
The question is how much of a treat is Real Player and the music store to Apple. Judging by the quality of Real One Player, Apple should be able to easy keep out innovating them.
How nice it would be to get the AAC format more widely used, and MS gradully frozen out, or forced to change direction. In Europe, the ruling against Microsoft and the bundling of Media Player, might also help in this area, but only if Apple ups its game and really starts integraring Quicktime and i-tunes, and gets into the set top box and media centre game. But know I am rambling and starting on another point.
Just shows how this might be interesting news.
The interesting thing here is what people are saying about this could hurt Microsoft, and any chance to hurt them should be taken ;-).
The question is how much of a treat is Real Player and the music store to Apple. Judging by the quality of Real One Player, Apple should be able to easy keep out innovating them.
How nice it would be to get the AAC format more widely used, and MS gradully frozen out, or forced to change direction. In Europe, the ruling against Microsoft and the bundling of Media Player, might also help in this area, but only if Apple ups its game and really starts integraring Quicktime and i-tunes, and gets into the set top box and media centre game. But know I am rambling and starting on another point.
Just shows how this might be interesting news.
You can stop the speculation...
Steve said at the beginning of this week in an interview with the Wallstreet Journal that they are so far in the lead that there's no need whatsoever and doesn't make sense to work with anyone in the next places to open the iPod platform.
So I guess it's oh well again. Let's hope this self-confidence doesn't wear out and comes back to haunt him.
Steve said at the beginning of this week in an interview with the Wallstreet Journal that they are so far in the lead that there's no need whatsoever and doesn't make sense to work with anyone in the next places to open the iPod platform.
So I guess it's oh well again. Let's hope this self-confidence doesn't wear out and comes back to haunt him.
While I agree that Apple should license Fair Play, I would rather they do it with a company that has a chance at being successful, and real just is not that company. If I were steve, I would be pushing hard for Sony to join alliances with Apple (i.e. having the Sony music store use Fair Play and AAC). (Yes, I know they've got their own format, but steve can be there on the rebound when they fail... =).
I agree with some of the others. Steve should tell Real to stick it. This guy has a failing business. Whenever I hear anything about Streaming Media, that guy from Real is ALWAYS there complaining about MS and/or Apple. If Real put as much effort into innovtion as they do companining, then they might be doing better.
It just bugs me that this guy, who has a huge over-inflated ego (way more than Steve or Bill) who is saying that, basically what ever direction Real takes is what will deturmine the future of the market. Sorry Real, you're just not that important.
Besides, what makes this guy think MS will take him? He's got lawsuits and other legal filings agasint microsoft up the wazoo. MS would proabably tell him to get lost as well.
I agree with some of the others. Steve should tell Real to stick it. This guy has a failing business. Whenever I hear anything about Streaming Media, that guy from Real is ALWAYS there complaining about MS and/or Apple. If Real put as much effort into innovtion as they do companining, then they might be doing better.
It just bugs me that this guy, who has a huge over-inflated ego (way more than Steve or Bill) who is saying that, basically what ever direction Real takes is what will deturmine the future of the market. Sorry Real, you're just not that important.
Besides, what makes this guy think MS will take him? He's got lawsuits and other legal filings agasint microsoft up the wazoo. MS would proabably tell him to get lost as well.
oh well...
well, i'm hoping steve's confidence doesn't come back to bite us all in the arse. i've never liked Real, but some partners would help in cementing AAC as a viable standard.
i mean, it was nice that AAC was chosen for DVD-A's computer playback, but that's kind of a small piece of the pie :
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/03/23/dvd_forum_chooses_apple_music/
especially considering M$ is already being given an even larger piece of the DVD pie:
http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-5166786.html
does this mean my TV is going to have a BSoD?
BenRoethig said:
well, i'm hoping steve's confidence doesn't come back to bite us all in the arse. i've never liked Real, but some partners would help in cementing AAC as a viable standard.
i mean, it was nice that AAC was chosen for DVD-A's computer playback, but that's kind of a small piece of the pie :
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/03/23/dvd_forum_chooses_apple_music/
especially considering M$ is already being given an even larger piece of the DVD pie:
http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-5166786.html
does this mean my TV is going to have a BSoD?
AAC is the next Beta
Wow, I can't believe I'm actually writing a post about how I think Apple is failing. I just read that Apple "rebuffed" Real's offer, and do you know what this means? It means that Apple is going to be the only company to use AAC because distribution channels other than iTMS will all be going WMA as they have no other choice seeing as Apple is not letting others use work in conjunction with them. Sure Apple has the leading market share now in online music, but do they really think they can rule on high without letting other companies offer products to compete with iPod. In the long run, the best thing for consumers is to have many companies selling AAC with Fairplay, and iPod having many competitors. Apple needs to embrace competition because as consumers we demand options. With no option but Apple, consumers will go elsewhere eventually. I really think that Apple is going to lose the format war. I hate to hear myself say it, but realistically if the market isn't open to everyone, (hPods don't count as competition), then Apple will lose out. Not working with Real was a very poor decision.
Wow, I can't believe I'm actually writing a post about how I think Apple is failing. I just read that Apple "rebuffed" Real's offer, and do you know what this means? It means that Apple is going to be the only company to use AAC because distribution channels other than iTMS will all be going WMA as they have no other choice seeing as Apple is not letting others use work in conjunction with them. Sure Apple has the leading market share now in online music, but do they really think they can rule on high without letting other companies offer products to compete with iPod. In the long run, the best thing for consumers is to have many companies selling AAC with Fairplay, and iPod having many competitors. Apple needs to embrace competition because as consumers we demand options. With no option but Apple, consumers will go elsewhere eventually. I really think that Apple is going to lose the format war. I hate to hear myself say it, but realistically if the market isn't open to everyone, (hPods don't count as competition), then Apple will lose out. Not working with Real was a very poor decision.
won't help battle MS
Even though it might be nice to sell more iPods, if Real is using its own download service, that is competition (big or small) for Apple.
I think the smarter route is to partner with PC manufacturers like HP. That was BRILLIANT for Apple. Get them to use the software, they might buy hardware too - less need to worry about formats that way.
Even though it might be nice to sell more iPods, if Real is using its own download service, that is competition (big or small) for Apple.
I think the smarter route is to partner with PC manufacturers like HP. That was BRILLIANT for Apple. Get them to use the software, they might buy hardware too - less need to worry about formats that way.
Not working with Rio or Real was a smart decision by Apple.
First of all iTMS makes little profit, but it sells iPods.
People like iPods, they consider using Macs because they are now exposed to Apple by visiting the web site because of iTunes/iTMS support or information for their iPods.
The HP deal brings that attention to Apple by placing iTunes on millions of PC's.
The deals with Rio or Real do just the opposite, they give access to the iPod and by them promoting either their format or WMA, force Apple to become just another PC company.
Even if Rio and Real sold "Fairplay" it still distracts from the main Apple goal, to sell Mac computers.
At less than 2% of the worldwide market, we really can't afford to diversify at this time.
Real and Rio know this, this whole Glaser email leak "game" has been a play to bring sympathy and put a dent into Apple by making them appear arrogant and turn people off to Apple.
But it seems the joke is on Glaser
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1107-5193027.html
First of all iTMS makes little profit, but it sells iPods.
People like iPods, they consider using Macs because they are now exposed to Apple by visiting the web site because of iTunes/iTMS support or information for their iPods.
The HP deal brings that attention to Apple by placing iTunes on millions of PC's.
The deals with Rio or Real do just the opposite, they give access to the iPod and by them promoting either their format or WMA, force Apple to become just another PC company.
Even if Rio and Real sold "Fairplay" it still distracts from the main Apple goal, to sell Mac computers.
At less than 2% of the worldwide market, we really can't afford to diversify at this time.
Real and Rio know this, this whole Glaser email leak "game" has been a play to bring sympathy and put a dent into Apple by making them appear arrogant and turn people off to Apple.
But it seems the joke is on Glaser
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1107-5193027.html
eroyce said:
AAC sure is the next Beta. While iTMS got an early lead, legal download service is mainly introduced in USA. By the time this broad payed music dl service get to Europe ( maybe late this year), Apple could be the only provider of AAC content. Even worse.. By then subsription services will look much better, since Microsoft is bringing the technology enabling you to use an MP3 player listen to music downloaded (thus only rented music) via subscription services. With WMA you can choose between a spectrum of different services: pay for single tracks (like iTMS), paying monthly subscription fee, and you can choose between different service providers. This is a good thing for consumers.
If MWA services get popular, I see one less reason to buy an iPod.. After all, it doesnt support MWA.
Seems to me Apple and Steve Jobs is doing a historical mistake here.
blabla said:
To understand Steve's point of view, you have to stop thinking like a computer geek. Think like a consumer. Consumers go choose the music player first. Then they will shop at whatever store works with the player. The key thing here is the hardware, not the format. As long as the iTMS has the songs the customer wants to listen to, they aren't going to care if it's not in WMA, because the songs play on their iPod. The format is irrelevant.
Licensing to Real will only serve to take sales away from the iTMS. It won't sell more iPods. People will buy an iPod because they like it, not because they can buy music at Real's online store instead of the iTMS.
Ha. The reason Real made the offer to Apple is that they know that the iPod is the de facto standard in Mp3 players. Most people aren't going to be chosing an online music store and then buying whatever player is recommended; they're going to be buying the player they want and then using whatever store the player recommends.
Thats why the whole WMA thing doesn't bother me atm (not until Microsoft releases their store and incorporates it right into Windows). The player is driving the choice of formats and not vice versa. Most average consumers know nothing about formats and don't care about the format -- they care about the player.
Sure, they'll be the minority who will only support players that play OGG, but they're also the same crowd who don't want to spend money on anything. Ever.
Thats why the whole WMA thing doesn't bother me atm (not until Microsoft releases their store and incorporates it right into Windows). The player is driving the choice of formats and not vice versa. Most average consumers know nothing about formats and don't care about the format -- they care about the player.
Sure, they'll be the minority who will only support players that play OGG, but they're also the same crowd who don't want to spend money on anything. Ever.
Tremendous news!!
Snap it up Apple! The only thing I can see that holds people back from downloading music from iTunes (other than the fact I'm in the UK and can't - pretty big one...) is that it's viewed as not the standard.
If Real use AAC then it will add prestige to the format... Which will make peole more likely to use iTunes. And even if people really are dumb enough to use real, then at least Real are pushing iPod sales.
Consider the revenues from iTMS. Consider revenues from iPod sales. Steve Jobs even stated that Apple are not making so much from iTunes, but they're selling a whole heap of iPods.
Fantastic.
Snap it up Apple! The only thing I can see that holds people back from downloading music from iTunes (other than the fact I'm in the UK and can't - pretty big one...) is that it's viewed as not the standard.
If Real use AAC then it will add prestige to the format... Which will make peole more likely to use iTunes. And even if people really are dumb enough to use real, then at least Real are pushing iPod sales.
Consider the revenues from iTMS. Consider revenues from iPod sales. Steve Jobs even stated that Apple are not making so much from iTunes, but they're selling a whole heap of iPods.
Fantastic.
Real did this ages ago
Real open sourced a huge chunk of their code called helix like over a year ago, they also stopped all the ****ty spamertisements at the same time. Real is run by some very intelligent geeks but unfortuntatly they let their marketing department get a little out of control for a few years.
Remember companies aren't evil only marketing departments.
Lancetx said:
Real open sourced a huge chunk of their code called helix like over a year ago, they also stopped all the ****ty spamertisements at the same time. Real is run by some very intelligent geeks but unfortuntatly they let their marketing department get a little out of control for a few years.
Remember companies aren't evil only marketing departments.
blabla said:
You are making the completely incorrect assumption that people are basing their purchase of an iPod on what music service it supports. The bottom line is that no matter what you think the iPod has been and remains the biggest selling MP3 player. In fact, Apple sold more iPods in the quarter that just ended than they did in their record setting quarter that ended in December. Hello, they had a 909% increase over the same quarter a year ago and it doesn't show any signs of slowing down.
People want the BEST MP3 player. Period. And the best MP3 player is still the iPod.
Later, Frank
History Repeats Itself
Steve and Bill are playing on the playground. They are the leaders. They are leading all the other kids to play ball.
Steve does not want to play with Bill. Steve goes his own way. He invents a shiny, cool ball. 30% of the kids go with him.
Bill invents a lopsided, dirty, leaky, broken ball. 70% of the kids play with Bill. They need Bill (of course to fix the ball).
At first, the kids who went with Steve are happy. They wanted to "be different". However, no kid truly wants to be different. They want to be normal.
One by one, kids start sneaking away from Steve to join Bill's game.
Bill alters his ball gradually so that it becomes impossible to throw or catch without his permission. He makes sure that Steve can never catch his ball.
Steve is alone. He has a shiny ball and less than 1% of the kids as friends.
Bill turns his ball into a death star and enslaves most of the Universe.
Steve and Bill are playing on the playground. They are the leaders. They are leading all the other kids to play ball.
Steve does not want to play with Bill. Steve goes his own way. He invents a shiny, cool ball. 30% of the kids go with him.
Bill invents a lopsided, dirty, leaky, broken ball. 70% of the kids play with Bill. They need Bill (of course to fix the ball).
At first, the kids who went with Steve are happy. They wanted to "be different". However, no kid truly wants to be different. They want to be normal.
One by one, kids start sneaking away from Steve to join Bill's game.
Bill alters his ball gradually so that it becomes impossible to throw or catch without his permission. He makes sure that Steve can never catch his ball.
Steve is alone. He has a shiny ball and less than 1% of the kids as friends.
Bill turns his ball into a death star and enslaves most of the Universe.
Heltik said:
I'm not saying that I don't think that Apple should make a deal with Real or others. In fact, I agree that it would be in the long term best interest of the iPod and Fairplay AAC. However, Apple is in a position of strength right now, Real is not and yet Real is making demands and threats. It would not be a good business decision for Apple to enter into an agreement with them under those circumstances and Steve Jobs knows this. Look at Apple's stock. It is more than double what it was at this time last year. Now look at Real's stock. That company is in trouble. Their business model is flawed. If they want to make a deal they shouldn't be so pissy and threatening about it.
Besides, their threats to go with Microsoft don't hold much weight since they have a multi-million dollar lawsuit against Microsoft right now. I think Microsoft will be inclined to simply let them die off as well.
Finally, it could hurt Apple to associate themselves and the iPod with a company that is close to failing. Imagine the headlines if Apple inks a deal with them and six months later they fold their music store.
Later, Frank
You're Missing the Point
Most of you were thinking like me earlier when I first heard about this relationship: "Cool Apple! DO IT!"
But after reading the WSJ article and reflecting on it for the most of the day, I'm struck by one point: Isn't Real's service (Rhapsody) a subscription-based service that users must pay a monthly fee to keep their music of songs?
Let's just theorize for a second here -- The Deal Goes Through for Some God-awful Reason:
Someone buys an iPod from Real's site and consquently uses Real's Rhapsody service. Now this consumer has downloaded in the neighborhood of a 1,000 songs over the course of six months and really can't find anything else that he would like to own, so he cancels the service. As he's preparing to go to work, he takes his iPod and hooks it up to the car audio system. Nothing plays because as soon as he canceled the service, all of his songs were too!
Now, let me just say that I don't know if Real charges $.79/burn rules apply to mp3 players as they do to CDs but you get the point. Apple cannot afford to let go of the process involved in protecting consumers. Steve knows this; that's why every aspect in the HP deal is still handled by Apple (iPod + iTMS).
That's why it will continue to see tremendous success. They already command 70% of the music downloading world and nearly a million iPods are getting put out the door a quarter. I'm not really certain why they put WMA support on the iPod (it's hidden); a backup plan maybe, but for what??? Apple is defending and fortifying its claim and will not repeat the same mistakes as before.
But, lurking in the mist to ruin Apple's chances could be Sony with their forthcoming media player and music service.
Most of you were thinking like me earlier when I first heard about this relationship: "Cool Apple! DO IT!"
But after reading the WSJ article and reflecting on it for the most of the day, I'm struck by one point: Isn't Real's service (Rhapsody) a subscription-based service that users must pay a monthly fee to keep their music of songs?
Let's just theorize for a second here -- The Deal Goes Through for Some God-awful Reason:
Someone buys an iPod from Real's site and consquently uses Real's Rhapsody service. Now this consumer has downloaded in the neighborhood of a 1,000 songs over the course of six months and really can't find anything else that he would like to own, so he cancels the service. As he's preparing to go to work, he takes his iPod and hooks it up to the car audio system. Nothing plays because as soon as he canceled the service, all of his songs were too!
Now, let me just say that I don't know if Real charges $.79/burn rules apply to mp3 players as they do to CDs but you get the point. Apple cannot afford to let go of the process involved in protecting consumers. Steve knows this; that's why every aspect in the HP deal is still handled by Apple (iPod + iTMS).
That's why it will continue to see tremendous success. They already command 70% of the music downloading world and nearly a million iPods are getting put out the door a quarter. I'm not really certain why they put WMA support on the iPod (it's hidden); a backup plan maybe, but for what??? Apple is defending and fortifying its claim and will not repeat the same mistakes as before.
But, lurking in the mist to ruin Apple's chances could be Sony with their forthcoming media player and music service.
It may already be too late...
I think it may already be too late for Apple to license Fairplay/AAC. True, in some ways Apple has a lead today but I expect that over the next year the WMA-based services and players will begin to dominate the market. Unless Apple partners with a major distributor within the next year (Sony?) I suspect that the Fairplay/AAC market will begin to falter and within two more years they could be in serious hurt (i.e. a minority player in the music download services).
I'm also worried that there is no low-end, flash-memory-based player that supports Fairplay/AAC. Steve Jobs has shown immense distain for those type of products, saying that they are basically unusable because they have too little capacity. But I suspect that many people will start with such players for cost reasons and it may be difficult to get them to switch to a new music format once they are ready to upgrade to a more expensive product. That's why I'm equally disturbed by a report that Apple turned down an offer to support Fairplay/AAC on the Rio players.
I'd actually like to see a small, flash-memory-based player from Apple. I'd much rather carry something like that than my iPod when I'm only interested in having a few hours of playback time (exercise, walks, a few hours on the beach, etc.).
I think it may already be too late for Apple to license Fairplay/AAC. True, in some ways Apple has a lead today but I expect that over the next year the WMA-based services and players will begin to dominate the market. Unless Apple partners with a major distributor within the next year (Sony?) I suspect that the Fairplay/AAC market will begin to falter and within two more years they could be in serious hurt (i.e. a minority player in the music download services).
I'm also worried that there is no low-end, flash-memory-based player that supports Fairplay/AAC. Steve Jobs has shown immense distain for those type of products, saying that they are basically unusable because they have too little capacity. But I suspect that many people will start with such players for cost reasons and it may be difficult to get them to switch to a new music format once they are ready to upgrade to a more expensive product. That's why I'm equally disturbed by a report that Apple turned down an offer to support Fairplay/AAC on the Rio players.
I'd actually like to see a small, flash-memory-based player from Apple. I'd much rather carry something like that than my iPod when I'm only interested in having a few hours of playback time (exercise, walks, a few hours on the beach, etc.).
Seems to me that Apple is making a pretty big bet that Real is going to die off.
I think Apple needs to focus on more HP-like deals. Especially with Sony.
I think Apple needs to focus on more HP-like deals. Especially with Sony.
Sailfish said:
a very nice article indeed. Made me actually change my mind about some things.. Still I could see making AAC more popular would be good.
fpnc said:
I propose you buy a iPod Mini.
Some points:
-Most of you seem to forget the impact the HP deal will have on iPod sales and growing success of iTunesMusicStore and AAC (and also Quicktime) a far more important deal then sharing AAC with Real.
-Of course Apple will get bigger and better competitors in the near future, but teaming up with Real wont change the outcome of who will be the winner.
-If Sony will become the big competitor? I have my doubts. Of course they have their own Music label, but that is also their weakness. They seem to have lost their touch for innovating and successfull hardware lately, except maybe Digital Still Cameras.
-Microsoft starting their own Music Store. I have my doubts about this having to much of an impact too. Some think MS has a monopoly on everything, they have not; Windows and Office are the only really succesull products they have to offer. On all other fronts, games, handheld and phones, entertainment systems, servers they are not very successfull, so why should their Music store be successfull? They cannot build it in the system; they wont be allowed to do so. They already have competition; iTunes on HP for example. The files a MS Music Sore (MSMS?) would sell will be protected too, similar to AAC, not to be confused with unprotected MS media files. But you cannot play these files on the iPod, so why buy at the MSMS? ...and that brings us back to the start:
People don't care on who sells the music online, it's the hardware, what they have in their hands that counts! It's the iPod people want, the 'object de desire' of the moment. Just look at the sales figures.