Apple Announces Apple TV (Formerly 'iTV')

[janstett]

If you don't know the difference between *p* and *i* you need to learn about HDTV.

I know full well. I hope you know the displays themselves are not interlaced the physical display itself is still progressive. That's why they bother with all the Faroujda type deinterlacing hardware. 1080i is interlaced only in the signal to fit in the bandwith allocated by the ATSC standard. The display deinterlaces it. Do you really think anybody sells an actual interlaced display in 2007?

And FWIW I can easily tell the difference between 1080i/p and 720.

So for the 360 you're looking at $299 plus $99 for wireless network plus the cost of a hard drive. Not exactly as cheap as an appletv, is it? And without HDMI support, it doesn't have all the features either.

I wasn't extolling the virtues of the XBox 360 -- just answering questions.

But while we're on the subject:
- For anything other than audio, don't bother with wireless. Go wired. Wives use microwaves even with 802.11n.
- The lack of HDMI support is disappointing. But 1920x1080 VGA (progressive, by the way) is good enough for me until they support HDMI.
- The 360 does a lot of other things for that extra $100 over the Apple TV. UPnP (Windows Media Connect), HD movie downloads today, HD-DVD playback available with a $199 add-on (don't you wish there was a $200 HD or BluRay add on for AppleTV?), and something else, what was it... Oh yeah, it plays some pretty good games.

 

[milo]

Where is the average "non-technical" user going to be getting divx content?

Heck, where is *your* divx content from?

 

[iDave]

I was thinking the same thing. Heck, I don't even know what divx is and I've been a computer (Mac) user for 18 years.

 

[milo]

For anything other than audio, don't bother with wireless. Go wired. Wives use microwaves even with 802.11n.

Wired is a deal breaker. Computer is in the basement, TV is upstairs, so wireless is the only option acceptable to me. And the microwave won't bother me (not that we ever use it while watching TV), since the hard drive will buffer the video instead of true streaming.

- The 360 does a lot of other things for that extra $100 over the Apple TV. UPnP (Windows Media Connect), HD movie downloads today, HD-DVD playback available with a $199 add-on (don't you wish there was a $200 HD or BluRay add on for AppleTV?), and something else, what was it... Oh yeah, it plays some pretty good games.

You mean that extra $100 plus the cost of a hard drive. And no, I'm not interested in those extra things. And no, I don't wish there was a HD disc add-on for either format, I don't want to go near either of those for a long time (if ever).

 

[janstett]

The 360 "premium" version comes with a 20 gb hard drive and wireless controllers for $399, so there is no extra cost for a HD.

 

[smadd]

last thoughts on aTV (for now)

I really have apreciated the feedback folks gave me on my perceptions of the aTV at this point. I read up on it some more, and I think that it will be a neat gadget to have IF (and a big "if") the streaming is stable and efficient. I imagine that if you're hard-wired in your living room, you can take advantage of the NIC built in (although I too wonder why they didn't go to gigabit on it) which would speed things up a bit if your computer is also hard-wired to your network. But, how fast will draft n wireless video content streaming be? Will delivery be fast enough to ensure smoothness & high quality or will you have to store it on the aTV 40GB drive to really get the best performance? I trust that just like everything else Mac, there are really great people (and sometimes brave) who will figure out some work-arounds to give the aTV any additional juice it needs (bigger hard drive, software work-arounds, etc.).

Again, thanks so much for the feedback. I am new to MacRumors postings, I didn't know people got so defensive and pissed at others' perspectives. You must chill.

 

[AliensAreFuzzy]

If this can play my h.264 encodings from Handbrake like iTunes can, I'm going to get one, but if it only supports what the iPod supports, no thank you.

 

[spydr]

If this can play my h.264 encodings from Handbrake like iTunes can, I'm going to get one, but if it only supports what the iPod supports, no thank you.

Of course, this will playback Handbrake's h264 files encoded from DVD in full quality. DVD's maximum resolution is 480p. This unit will do 720p.

 

[milo]

The 360 "premium" version comes with a 20 gb hard drive and wireless controllers for $399, so there is no extra cost for a HD.

I was responding to comments that the 360 was the same price as the appletv. With a hard drive it's $100 more, and with that plus wifi it's $200 more.

 

[milo]

But, how fast will draft n wireless video content streaming be? Will delivery be fast enough to ensure smoothness & high quality or will you have to store it on the aTV 40GB drive to really get the best performance?

It's not an either-or situation. If the network can't quite keep up, you can have it sync the movie but start watching the movie while it's still syncing.

And one thing I haven't seen people mention is that since it syncs via iTunes, it can use smart playlists. Meaning that it can sync automatically based on recent downloads, last watched times, playcounts, ratings, or any combination of those and the other criteria you choose to set up.

 

[IlluminatedSage]

they list the USB 2.0 port as for service and diagnostics.

I sure hope we are going to be able to attach an external hard drive to expand data space on there.

 

[passedpast]

Cancelled Order.

I spent an hour reading the posts here and decided to cancel my atv order. I naively hoped that it would stream a dvd being played from my mac's drive. I also hoped it would be a wireless router and it could replace my airport express. I've used up all my HDTV's HDMI and RBG ports and I was hoping the atv would allow me to unplug my upscale dvd player and use that HDMI for the atv. Oh well. Since I have an open DVI input, I guess I could wait for a 2CD Mini or even get a new Vista machine???
Very informative posts here, thanks.

 

[spydr]

I was responding to comments that the 360 was the same price as the appletv. With a hard drive it's $100 more, and with that plus wifi it's $200 more.

why is even 360 compared here? well if you have windows machines to act as server, yes maybe, but if you are sharing content from macs, is 360 relevant at all?

 

[bommai]

Precisely!

i liked the ATV when i saw it. but then i also realized that it doesn't record. so i would need an eye tv anyway. since the eye tv doesn't stream i need a mini to be placed next to my TV anyway. so why would i need the a ATV when i have already a eye tv and a mini sitting next to my TV?

and the mini with a bluetooth mouse/keyboard would allow me to browse the internet.

so in my case it seems to be better to shell out $700 for a mini than $300 for a ATV.

Precisely. I am in the same boat. I already have a eyeTV hybrid hooked up to my PowerMac G4 (upgrade with a USB2.0 PCI card). It functions well except I can only watch TV on the monitor. I also have a JVC HDTV 61" with HDMI. I already connected my PowerMac G4 to it using a DVI to HDMI cable and it looks wonderful. But leaving that setup like that is not ideal since the PowerMac is huge. So, I am going to take the PowerMac to my office room and buy a Mac Mini. Connect the Mac Mini to the TV using DVI to HDMI cable and setup VNC so I can connect into Mac Mini using my PowerMac. I can perform maintenance on it using that. I may not even need a keyboard/mouse hooked up permanently to the Mac Mini. I can hook up the eyeTV Hybrid to the Mac Mini and possibly an external firewire HD and I am set with a HD-DVR that also plays DVDs and photos/music. I can use my Harmony Remote with the Mac Mini instead of the Apple remote and have even more functionality. So, for me Apple TV has no use!

I am just waiting for Apple to upgrade the Mini before I buy it. I hope that it comes soon.

 

[milo]

why is even 360 compared here? well if you have windows machines to act as server, yes maybe, but if you are sharing content from macs, is 360 relevant at all?

I guess some people think it's a comparable unit. The appletv is cross platform, so it does compete with the 360 for PC users.

 

[Diatribe]

The average person isn't going to have a computer on every TV set. They have iTunes music, they have digital pictures, there has to be a way to get these into the living room. That's what they're trying to address.

Exactly. I for one don't want to have to buy a Mac mini for every room I want to listen to music in. The ?tv comes in real handy there. Set up one master server and then only ?tvs.

The big benefit here is that if you have a lot of media on your server ALL ?tvs can stream that. If you had a Mac mini you'd need an external HD for each one. This would cost quite a lot.

 

[Motley]

The big benefit here is that if you have a lot of media on your server ALL ?tvs can stream that. If you had a Mac mini you'd need an external HD for each one. This would cost quite a lot.

I wondered about using the new Airport that can have a hard drive hooked to it as a network drive to store and pull content from.

I've read of people with a physical network storing their dvd collections on one server and then using dvd assist and an alias folder that points to the network drive from a mini to access and play the ripped dvds through frontrow.

So for your example above all the minis would not need external drives. You'd still need a mini for each tv though.

 

[outlyer]

Where is the average "non-technical" user going to be getting divx content?

Heck, where is *your* divx content from?

People are acquiring content from a lot of places, not the least of which is divx.com which publishes indie movies and other videos. Of course, there are a vast number of people who use Bittorrent and the like.

More importantly, DIVX and XVID are popular formats; major companies like Sony and Panasonic ship cheap DVD players which can play the format. Their endorsement of the format should suggest a demand.

Here are some hardware players:
http://www.divx.com/products/hw/browse.php?c=1

digital cameras:
http://www.divx.com/products/hw/browse.php?c=9

miscellaneous systems:
http://www.divx.com/products/hw/browse.php?c=16

I think MP4/h.264 is definitely the future, particularly for streaming and downloadable video, but we're not there yet, and locking out the most popular formats isn't really ideal to bring this product beyond the Apple loyal.

The last company that tried to force format conversion onto consumers was Sony with their ATRAC players and the result was pretty disastrous for them.

 

[ftaok]

Exactly. I for one don't want to have to buy a Mac mini for every room I want to listen to music in. The ?tv comes in real handy there. Set up one master server and then only ?tvs.

The big benefit here is that if you have a lot of media on your server ALL ?tvs can stream that. If you had a Mac mini you'd need an external HD for each one. This would cost quite a lot.

There's no reason that you can't have a mixture of both. A Mac mini HTPC that's set-up to record HD shows. This would be on the TV that gets the most action.

Then for the basement HT set-up, an Apple TV would work nicely by syncing to the Mac mini upstairs.

ft

EDIT - oh yeah, if you just want music, then an Airport Express would work in those rooms, provide you had speakers.

 

[Scarpad]

Does anyone know if Apple Charges you upfront when you preorder, if so I have to shift some funds around...


Thanks

 

[brbubba]

I spent an hour reading the posts here and decided to cancel my atv order. I naively hoped that it would stream a dvd being played from my mac's drive. I also hoped it would be a wireless router and it could replace my airport express. I've used up all my HDTV's HDMI and RBG ports and I was hoping the atv would allow me to unplug my upscale dvd player and use that HDMI for the atv. Oh well. Since I have an open DVI input, I guess I could wait for a 2CD Mini or even get a new Vista machine???
Very informative posts here, thanks.

Use Handbrake to encode all your DVDs to h.264 and you will never have to pick up another DVD again. Although depending on the size of your collection, that could be very space prohibitive as each encode at 1500kbps takes anywhere from 800MB to 1.4GB for me.

 

[ftaok]

Use Handbrake to encode all your DVDs to h.264 and you will never have to pick up another DVD again. Although depending on the size of your collection, that could be very space prohibitive as each encode at 1500kbps takes anywhere from 800MB to 1.4GB for me.

Using Handbrake is great for lots of things, however, there are a lot of things you give up in doing so.

1. Special features - not everyone's cup of tea, but I do sometimes watch the deleted scenes and other featurettes.

2. Subtitles - many times, we turn on the subtitles because other people are noisy or there's construction going on or the kid is asleep. Also, losing subtitles for foreign films is not acceptable.

3. Chapters - Handbrake does not have chapter marking as a feature and it's unlikely to ever happen since the main developer got a real job

4. Time - ripping a DVD to a VIDEO_TS folder takes 30 minutes or so. Ripping to a MPEG-4 or h264 file takes much much longer.

5. Quality - no matter how you slice it, a VIDEO_TS folder will play in higher quality than a Handbrake MPEG4/h264 file. Most DVDs are anamorphic nowadays and Handbrake/Quicktime doesn't handle anamorphic, so many widescreen movies get chopped down to 720x360 with Handbrake.

6. Rippability - with the development rate of Handbrake slowing down drastically, many of the newer DVDs (Sony and Disney) won't rip with Handbrake. Mac the Ripper even has problems with these newer titles. And it's only going to get worse, so fewer and fewer titles will be rippable, or you may have to rip with MTR first which adds more time.

I love Handbrake, but it could still use much work. I guess not enough people donated to the project.

ft

 

[illegalprelude]

Using Handbrake is great for lots of things, however, there are a lot of things you give up in doing so.

1. Special features - not everyone's cup of tea, but I do sometimes watch the deleted scenes and other featurettes.

2. Subtitles - many times, we turn on the subtitles because other people are noisy or there's construction going on or the kid is asleep. Also, losing subtitles for foreign films is not acceptable.

3. Chapters - Handbrake does not have chapter marking as a feature and it's unlikely to ever happen since the main developer got a real job

4. Time - ripping a DVD to a VIDEO_TS folder takes 30 minutes or so. Ripping to a MPEG-4 or h264 file takes much much longer.

5. Quality - no matter how you slice it, a VIDEO_TS folder will play in higher quality than a Handbrake MPEG4/h264 file. Most DVDs are anamorphic nowadays and Handbrake/Quicktime doesn't handle anamorphic, so many widescreen movies get chopped down to 720x360 with Handbrake.

6. Rippability - with the development rate of Handbrake slowing down drastically, many of the newer DVDs (Sony and Disney) won't rip with Handbrake. Mac the Ripper even has problems with these newer titles. And it's only going to get worse, so fewer and fewer titles will be rippable, or you may have to rip with MTR first which adds more time.

I love Handbrake, but it could still use much work. I guess not enough people donated to the project.

ft

really? I did not know about any problems with Handbrake and new titles but I dont rip too much and most I buy now are Blu-ray so Handbrake cant rip them anyways

 

[Scarpad]

Using Handbrake is great for lots of things, however, there are a lot of things you give up in doing so.

1. Special features - not everyone's cup of tea, but I do sometimes watch the deleted scenes and other featurettes.

2. Subtitles - many times, we turn on the subtitles because other people are noisy or there's construction going on or the kid is asleep. Also, losing subtitles for foreign films is not acceptable.

3. Chapters - Handbrake does not have chapter marking as a feature and it's unlikely to ever happen since the main developer got a real job

4. Time - ripping a DVD to a VIDEO_TS folder takes 30 minutes or so. Ripping to a MPEG-4 or h264 file takes much much longer.

5. Quality - no matter how you slice it, a VIDEO_TS folder will play in higher quality than a Handbrake MPEG4/h264 file. Most DVDs are anamorphic nowadays and Handbrake/Quicktime doesn't handle anamorphic, so many widescreen movies get chopped down to 720x360 with Handbrake.

6. Rippability - with the development rate of Handbrake slowing down drastically, many of the newer DVDs (Sony and Disney) won't rip with Handbrake. Mac the Ripper even has problems with these newer titles. And it's only going to get worse, so fewer and fewer titles will be rippable, or you may have to rip with MTR first which adds more time.

I love Handbrake, but it could still use much work. I guess not enough people donated to the project.

ft

My understanding is visualhub is the best option for H264 for the Mac right now

 

[jhande]

FWIW I was initially disappointed about the @tv. I also wanted a dvr in the mix. And access to TV/Movies in iTunes (c'mon Apple, let the rest of the world in).

Then I got to think about it: What do I actually do today?

I have an external harddrive with all my media (excluding music, which is on my laptop). My 'current' media is on my MB.

When I'm at home, and we want to watch a movie from the MB, I hook up cables and insert the power supply.

It works really well, apart from one tiny snag: I can't work on the laptop at the same time.

The @tv solves this problem with one stroke. The MB can stream, while I happily work on other things (in case I don't want to watch the movie).

Against my initial thoughts I'm actually beginning to like this