Apple Announces Apple TV (Formerly 'iTV')

[Diatribe]

A DVD is easier than a laptop. But a laptop is easier than a stack of a hundred dvd's (plus thousands of songs, plus thousands of photos).

I wonder if Apple will enable streaming to the appletv from the iPhone?

Considering that it only has g as the fastest wireless, probably not. But once that goes in there I don't see why not. Although battery life would probably suck. But I guess bringing the charger wouldn't be that much of a hassle.

But what I am really curious about is the next iPod. With wireless and those HD capacities this would actually make a lot of sense to stream to an ?tv. That would be quite awesome.

 

[Diatribe]

I don't think that's the point, but I guess we'll see. The pairing bit and extension to friends and family makes it sound like this might not be limited to your subnet.

B

As I just wrote in my previous post, the iPod would make for one hell of a streaming device for this. Put in wireless and at those HD capacities this would be pretty awesome. That would beat lugging around DVDs by a long shot.

 

[moseral]

Any way to use this on a regular TV?

Since I still have a normal TV and don;t want to switch to high-definition for awhile, am I out of luck in using AppleTV, or is there a converter from component video to normal video? Am I the last one to still have a normal TV?

 

[PaisanoMan]

Hmm, I'm not sure why people keep bringing up 802.11g -- when I look at the tech specs page, it clearly says it uses the (draft) 802.11n standard.

Either way, I don't think it's meaningful to compare this to a mac mini, when it's half the cost. This may not seem like a compelling product *today*, but I think this is essentially their beachhead into the living room, where they'll continue to put product R&D (and marketing!) money in the future.

On top of that, I would imagine that 720p content on the iTunes store is coming -- and if this includes movies, it could be a very compelling alternative to HD-DVD or BluRay for a lot of people. The cost of these players alone is enough to make me wait it out for another year or two.

You have to consider that HD isn't even remotely ubiquitous yet. If Apple can grow the movie store to deliver HD content, I think it could be a formidable competitor to today's struggling HD formats as more and more people buy HDTVs without satisfactory ways to get HD content.

 

[brbubba]

Hmm, I'm not sure why people keep bringing up 802.11g -- when I look at the tech specs page, it clearly says it uses the (draft) 802.11n standard.

802.11g because that is what most people will be using. Since the n standard isn't finalized it most likely won't inter operate with non-apple products. In addition I would never pay $179 for the new airport extreme, the POS doesn't even have gigabit ethernet!

 

[milo]

Xbox 1 runnng XBMC, stunningly good. Very cheap, full of features and very polished.

Maybe so. But that's an option for those who are pretty technically savvy, not the mainstream. And does it do HDTV? What is the max output resolution?

That's not apples to apples - if you're going to lump in the cost of the content (serivce contract), then you have to do so with the aTV too. How much will movies from iTunes cost over the course of a year? My point is - most of us already pay a content provider - cable company, satellite company, Netflix - a monthly fee. If you just bought an aTV, you'd still have to pay for content (assuming you wanted to do it legally) at the iTMS to get something approaching the equivalent of a cable or satellite TV subscription.

That's not the case. It's not lumping in the cost of the content, it's that without a service contract, you can't use the TIVO *at all*. There's no way to just buy it and provide your own content (such as just recording off the airwaves), right? You can use an appletv without buying a single thing from itms, I'm watching a ton of video via iPod right now (ripped dvd's) and have never bought a single video from iTunes. And I don't have cable and don't want it (or the equivalent of it). Another option is something like the elgato stuff to record TV, which still is cheaper than a subscription. Even if I bought content from iTunes, I could get a LOT of material for the $45 per month a tivo contract would cost.

And don't forget, many people interested in this stuff probably aren't doing it legally, they're going to be way more interested in a box they can just buy instead of paying monthly fees.

 

[janstett]

Sure, 1080p may be the distant future. In the meantime, people are just getting into HDTV and the vast majority of HDTVs sold are 720p. I think we're getting ahead of ourselves here. Sounds like the AppleTV isn't for you, but it'll be more than adequate and useful for others.

1080p is happening now -- PS3 has 1080p support and new TVs with 1080p support are on the market.

The future of HDTV is 2160p
http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/01/09/ces2007_westinghouse_quad_hdtv_com/

and then the "distant" future 4k x 4k, like the red lense cameras being adopted in filmmaking.

 

[beaster]

That's not the case. It's not lumping in the cost of the content, it's that without a service contract, you can't use the TIVO *at all*. There's no way to just buy it and provide your own content (such as just recording off the airwaves), right?

No, you can watch OTA on it without a sub.

You can use an appletv without buying a single thing from itms, I'm watching a ton of video via iPod right now (ripped dvd's) and have never bought a single video from iTunes.

I said LEGALLY, which excludes ripped DVD's. How much other legal movie content is out there that you can get on your Mac and pump to an aTV without buying it from iTMS? So far looks like the answer is a big fat zero, especially if you're talking HD content, which is what this whole sub-thread was predicated on.

And I don't have cable and don't want it (or the equivalent of it). Another option is something like the elgato stuff to record TV, which still is cheaper than a subscription. Even if I bought content from iTunes, I could get a LOT of material for the $45 per month a tivo contract would cost.

Fine, but that's my point. At least factor in the content costs if you're going to make an apples to apples comparison. It may still come out in favor of the aTV, but you at least need to do it to be fair. How much does an iTMS HD movie cost? $10, $15? Your $45 doesn't go that far. I'm playing devil's advocate here - I'm not anti-aTV, I just think the comparisons in this thread have been a bit skewed.

And don't forget, many people interested in this stuff probably aren't doing it legally, they're going to be way more interested in a box they can just buy instead of paying monthly fees.

Well, if you want to play the "what can I do illegally" game, then you'll lose big time. You don't think you can steal DirecTV or cable service?

-Sean

 

[iDave]

1080p is happening now -- PS3 has 1080p support and new TVs with 1080p support are on the market.

The future of HDTV is 2160p
http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/01/09/ces2007_westinghouse_quad_hdtv_com/

and then the "distant" future 4k x 4k, like the red lense cameras being adopted in filmmaking.

Like I said, we're getting ahead of ourselves here. It has taken 20 years or more for 720p HDTV to finally take hold. Anything better is in the future. (While there are a few 1080p TVs on the market, the percentage is small.) You're right that the AppleTV is not cutting edge but it doesn't matter to most people. Lots of people are actually complaining that it won't work with their NTSC sets.

 

[janstett]

why is even 360 compared here? well if you have windows machines to act as server, yes maybe, but if you are sharing content from macs, is 360 relevant at all?

Connect360

http://www.nullriver.com/index/products/connect360

Even without that, it's a product that is largely competitive with the aTV.

 

[war]

802.11n

Is there going to be an upgrade airport card for the imac core duo so it has 802.11n?

 

[milo]

No, you can watch OTA on it without a sub.

I didn't know that, can you point me to a source clearing that up?

I said LEGALLY, which excludes ripped DVD's.

While it may technically be illegal, I don't know anyone who takes that joke of a law seriously. Has anyone ever been busted for ripping a DVD that they own?

So far looks like the answer is a big fat zero, especially if you're talking HD content, which is what this whole sub-thread was predicated on.

So is there a competing system that sells downloadable HD movies? Is there another system similar to this that has a way of legally playing movies without having to buy them from an online download store? You're complaining about appletv, but it seems like the competing boxes fall under the same complants.

Well, if you want to play the "what can I do illegally" game, then you'll lose big time. You don't think you can steal DirecTV or cable service?

Hey, I'm not condoning it, just saying it happens (particularly ripping from DVD, which most people probably don't even consider illegal). And that appletv is probably a more appealing solution to people who get content from bittorrent or whatever.

 

[ftaok]

While it may technically be illegal, I don't know anyone who takes that joke of a law seriously. Has anyone ever been busted for ripping a DVD that they own?

I'm certainly no lawyer, but the way these types of laws work is that they aren't really enforceable. I seem to remember a similar thing back when the VCR was first coming out. Eventually, if people violate the DMCA (DCMA???) the copywright owners will start suing people. It only takes one person to stand up and keep appealing all the way to the Supreme Court. At that point, the SC will decide whether the DMCA is constitutional or not.

However, the copywright owners are not that dumb. They won't sue people outright. They'll threaten and threaten with their legions of lawyers and get people to settle out of court. That way, the DMCA can't be challenged.

Or maybe not, since I'm no lawyer.

So is there a competing system that sells downloadable HD movies? Is there another system similar to this that has a way of legally playing movies without having to buy them from an online download store? You're complaining about appletv, but it seems like the competing boxes fall under the same complants.

Not to bring the XBox back into this discussion, but the XBox does have a downloadable HD movies and TV shows available for "money". Not sure if it's for purchase, rental, or both. Plus, with the HD-DVD add-on, you can buy/rent HD-DVDs to watch.

 

[Wender]

I really was hoping that it would interface with a computer similar to the way Front Row works. For instance, I can stick a WMV file into my Movies folder and it shows up in Front Row. With aTV, I'd have to convert it first to h264 or MPEG4, import it into iTunes, then watch. A few extra steps that takes time and potentially cuts into the quality.

ft

I guess we'll have to wait and see, maybe it will do just that. I think it will eventually, although the video specs listed are very strict. It does run an Intel processor, I bet it uses QuickTime for playback, and there must be a way to add codecs just like we do to get Front Row to play everything.

Quote from arstechnica: "Whether or not [Apple TV] becomes as ubiquitous as the iPod is another matter, and that may come down to just what AppleTV supports. While many users will be enthralled to use AppleTV to stream iTunes Store purchases, many of us are looking for that killer device that can also handle Xvid and DivX, which Apple TV cannot do straight out of the box and may not be able to do with hacks, either. Time will tell."

A lot of negativity in this thread. I'm surprised. Take a look at the original 1st iPod thread. Makes you think - what were we THINKING?

 

[beaster]

I didn't know that, can you point me to a source clearing that up?

Plenty of references on Tivocommunity.com. Or you can trust me that my Tivo still works OTA when I unplug it from the dish, and I haven't had it plugged into a phone jack in about 6 months.

While it may technically be illegal, I don't know anyone who takes that joke of a law seriously. Has anyone ever been busted for ripping a DVD that they own?

I'm just trying to keep the comparisons fair.

So is there a competing system that sells downloadable HD movies? Is there another system similar to this that has a way of legally playing movies without having to buy them from an online download store? You're complaining about appletv, but it seems like the competing boxes fall under the same complants.

I can order PPV HD movies and record them on my HDTivo. Most HD cable DVRs allow the same. And correction: I'm not complaining about aTV at all, I think I made that clear.

Hey, I'm not condoning it, just saying it happens (particularly ripping from DVD, which most people probably don't even consider illegal). And that appletv is probably a more appealing solution to people who get content from bittorrent or whatever.

Agreed. I'd buy an aTV if 1) it did at least 720p/60, 2) I could actually buy real 720p/60 content from iTMS, 3) it output Dolby Digital and DTS, 4) it would play DVD's I rip to my hard drive and 5) could pass Blu-ray content, assuming I had a Blu-ray drive in the sweet new Mac I also don't own yet.

-Sean

 

[Macadacious]

Apple TV...where I think it's going and how exciting it will be!

Here's how I envision this shaking out, with some minor tweaking along the way. Just like Jobs said for the Apple iPhone ("Making phone calls is the killer app"), but in this case - TV is the killer app for the Apple TV. Music and Photos are simply elegantly designed extras that add to the digital lifestyle and personalize the experience.

The simple part for now...Apple wants you to buy a new Mac with 802.11N built in and with lots of storage (and/or you can add your own external storage for even more capacity). This computer may reside somewhere in your house other than your living room/family room/bedroom, etc. where your TV(s) are currently located. You then buy an Apple TV (also with 802.11N built in) to stream the movies and TV shows that you purchase from iTunes.

The cool part later...is going to be when the video (movies and TV) that's streamed to the Apple TV is true VoD AND live TV coming straight from the ITMS using WiMAX! How's 200+ plus channels of entertainment sound for your viewing pleasure? Oh, but you want TiVo like functionality, no problem, don't forget that OSX Leopard already has PVR/DVR functionality buried deep into its code base (I've seen the screen shots for it before on this forum). Something I'm sure that Apple could incorporate with Front Row via the Apple TV. Under this model, Apple will compete with Telco IPTV, Cable, and Satellite, which is one reason I think they chose Apple TV as the name for this product. Apple will either find a way to use their Apple Stores as WiMAX distribution hubs (already strategically located within wealthy demographic regions across the US to access a portion of their target markets) to circumvent the phone companies IPTV DSL based offerings and cable companies to deliver TV and VoIP over the last mile (or over the last 6 miles or so to be exact according to the standard for fixed WiMAX) OR partner with the phone companies to leverage their existing/developing WiMAX footprints across the US to reach broader markets.

The Cingular/AT&T agreement could be stretched to include the WiMAX offering in the future or they may just use a wireless provider's network (AT&T, Sprint, Clearwire, etc.) to become their own MVNO (Mobile Network Virtual Operator) to provide a seamless experience to the customer. This may also be the reason Apple went with Intel. Intel plans on building WiFi and WiMAX into their portable chipsets, so theoretically, Apple could utilize these chipsets in their Apple TVs or ask for this technology to be embedded into their desktop chips as well.

SO...you end up with a complete Apple solution for your all your home or mobile entertainment/communication needs. Apple computers located somewhere in your home for storage and/or a stackable storage solution that sits on top of the Apple TV (using the USB connector already on the box), an Apple TV connected to all the TVs in your home (possibly leased or rented by Apple as part of a service agreement to lower the cost of acquisition to the end user - just like your cable, satellite and IPTV set top box is provided today), an Internet connection provided via Apple using WiMAX for the last mile or Mobile WiMAX for access while on the road (connected to your laptop or iPhone), possibly a large screen Apple 40+ inch HD LCD down the road (we've all heard these rumors for some time now), and the next rendition of the iPod HiFi connected to your Apple TV for your virtual surround sound/home theater audio experience so you can enjoy the show or listen to your music in high fidelity. Oh, and don't forget the regular iPod as well. I have to admit. This would be a pretty slick implementation if they can pull it all together.

How exciting indeed! Apple TV? Sign me up. I'll take 3! One for each HDTV in my home. Potentially another example of Apple making something that we didn't know we wanted or needed until they made it for us. Man...I'd love to be a part of this!

 

[Evangelion]

If this can play my h.264 encodings from Handbrake like iTunes can, I'm going to get one, but if it only supports what the iPod supports, no thank you.

Repeat after me: If it plays back in iTunes, it plays back in AppleTV.

 

[SeaFox]

Repeat after me: If it plays back in iTunes, it plays back in AppleTV.

Well, it's possible to expand the abilities of Quicktime and iTunes with plugins. I can play ogg vorbis files on my iTunes because I've added Quicktime components. The iTV will not give the user the ability to access the operating system files like a Mac. Heck, does the iTV even run the full blown Mac OSX?

So in my case, I can play files in iTunes that cannot be played on an iTV - kinda blowing your blanket statement.

 

[blurtigo]

AppleTV seems like a halfway step to me, it should be more of a stand-alone device.

If it had direct access to the iTunes Store, integrated YouTube/GoogleVideo, or even just Safari built-in, it would have served more of a point.

As it stands it just doesn't seem that elegant a solution.

 

[Evangelion]

Well, it's possible to expand the abilities of Quicktime and iTunes with plugins. I can play ogg vorbis files on my iTunes because I've added Quicktime components. The iTV will not give the user the ability to access the operating system files like a Mac. Heck, does the iTV even run the full blown Mac OSX?

So in my case, I can play files in iTunes that cannot be played on an iTV - kinda blowing your blanket statement.

If those files are visible in iTunes and you can play them back in iTunes, then you can play them back in AppleTV. It really is that simple as that.

So you have bunch of .ogg-files in iTunes, and you play them back in iTunes? Then they will play back in AppleTV. What makes you think that you couldn't play them back in AppleTV? You just said that "I have files that will play back in iTunes but not in AppleTV", without actually telling why that is the case.

 

[blurtigo]

If those files are visible in iTunes and you can play them back in iTunes, then you can play them back in AppleTV. It really is that simple as that.

So you have bunch of .ogg-files in iTunes, and you play them back in iTunes? Then they will play back in AppleTV. What makes you think that you couldn't play them back in AppleTV? You just said that "I have files that will play back in iTunes but not in AppleTV", without actually telling why that is the case.

If you streamed them probably yes, but if you are using the sync-approach and copying your media to the AppleTV I doubt very much they'd play. Anything requiring plug-ins will probably be a no-go.

 

[Evangelion]

If you streamed them probably yes, but if you are using the sync-approach and copying your media to the AppleTV I doubt very much they'd play. Anything requiring plug-ins will probably be a no-go.

But since streaming would work, I fail to see the problem here.

 

[blurtigo]

But since streaming would work, I fail to see the problem here.

Just depends how you intend to use it.

I don't keep my Mac on permanently as a media-server, so I'd prefer to copy them to the AppleTV for convenience. Obviously if I had a lot of files that required plug-ins like the other poster, I'd be stuffed though.

It's just a bit of a messy solution for an Apple product, it's something that doesn't seem to know really what it wants to be.

 

[mrthieme]

AppleTV seems like a halfway step to me, it should be more of a stand-alone device.

I agree, reading this thread it seems alot of people are getting angry when anyone points out the areas where atv falls short. It has a very specific purpose, and it most likely will fulfill that purpose very well, but I feel it's the answer to the wrong problem. Hopefully this is phase one of a larger plan for media consumption. Most of us who want access to our itunes content in other areas of our home have already got it there. What we lack, or at least myself, is the centralized interface that Apple could so easily provide. If Front Row had a fifth menu, cable or satellite tv, and the Mini had cable card support with better connection options, we would be much closer. It seems that atv is simply turning a tv into a large ipod. I am someone who has had multi component audio and home theater rigs, and I have also tried to explain how to navigate them to friends and family, with a wide range of results. The last thing most of us need is another box, with more cables, another remote, and yet another interface to learn and remember. To me, Apple's greatest strength is the ability to take good hardware and make it better using sensible gui's and common sense. Also condensing multiple boxes into one (think imac or iphone) is something they do better than anyone else I know of. In short, I'm not saying the atv is a bad product, I simply feel a more full featured box would solve the bigger problem that exists in the living room, and I think it would sell. Sorry for the long post.
PS if one want's to do this Microsoft style you already can http://enviveit.com/t-products.aspx
Think how this would be Apple style!

 

[iflipper]

Seconded, for me it was a sad day, the end of Apple Computer and nothing concerning the Mac at all.

In a couple of years time OS X will be open on all Windows boxes and I expect to be running Linux. What a shame.

I was expecting to hear something about upgrades to MacBooks/MacBook Pros. I've been holding off upgrading my ibook until I heard something

the apple TV seems to have little advantage over my mac mini other than the HDMI output.