Apple Appeals EU Digital Markets Act Interoperability Rules

[Stuwil]

The wsj and other observers have already thrown their hat into the ring with “regulate not innovate”

So your saying due to this regulation prices of Apple equipment will go up?

If the EU are regulate not innovative as you claim then where is the innovation in Cambodia for example because they aren’t in Europe so there should be no issue then.

No what I said was bells the company sell a product and now because of regulation its dearer than before but you don’t hear wee Timmy shouting this is government overreach and it’s not fair that I’m paying more for a product I like

 

[surferfb]

So again where is the innovation in other countries apart from china if the EU is so bad then where is this innovation in Cambodia for example?

There’s a ton of innovation in the US. See:
pretty much the entire GenAI industry, Apple’s headphone pairing technology that is apparently so fundamental other companies can’t compete against it, etc.

Some say that being able to buy guns is a bad law

I’d agree!

 

[I7guy]

If the EU are regulate not innovative as you claim then where is the innovation in Cambodia for example because they aren’t in Europe so there should be no issue then.

It’s not me that’s claiming the eu regulate not innovate it’s the wsj. The DMA is a tell as to why this might be happening.

No what I said was bells the company sell a product and now because of regulation its dearer than before but you don’t hear wee Timmy shouting this is government overreach and it’s not fair that I’m paying more for a product I like

Timmy is ceo and has to be specific. He can’t be a loose cannon such as other ceos.

 

[Stuwil]

It’s not me that’s claiming the eu regulate not innovate it’s the wsj. The DMA is a tell as to why this might be happening.

Timmy is ceo and has to be specific. He can’t be a loose cannon such as other ceos.

I mean wee Timmy as a customer & other customers of bells who buy their product but because of government regulation its dearer and now costs him more you don’t here people like him saying this is government overreach and it’s a disgrace What is happening


So if the EU is regulate not innovate then where are the other countries that are innovating that is outside of the EU
Now it should be easy if that’s the case

 

[Stuwil]

There’s a ton of innovation in the US. See:
pretty much the entire GenAI industry, Apple’s headphone pairing technology that is apparently so fundamental other companies can’t compete against it, etc.


I’d agree!

IOS and android are based in America to start with
If as you claim that this is a bad law then where is the innovation in other countries that don’t have this DMA like papa New Guinea
For example
Just let me know any country apart from where iOS and android is based

How can a 3rd party headphone maker make better connectivity on iOS if Apple won’t allow them to do it software wise
Well?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I’ve read it. It started from the assumption that the law was needed, begged the question to determine that the law was needed, and didn’t seriously consider the possibility that consumers benefit from and actually prefer Apple’s ecosystem.

It did not do a cost benefit analysis. There was no serious exploration of the benefits of closed, integrated ecosystems, and it did not weigh benefits against the proposed regulatory burden. It also focused on competition rather than on consumer outcomes like price, innovation, or user satisfaction.

It also did not engage in a neutral exploration of whether intervention was needed. It operated from the assumption that gatekeeper behavior was inherently problematic, and didn’t investigate whether regulation would improve outcomes for consumers.

You sure read it? Considering they mention all over the document regarding benefits gate keepers provided to consumers but your summary strongly suggests you didn’t actually read the Impact Assessment, or at best skimmed it with a preconceived conclusion. Impact assessments do start with a problem definition, but that’s… how impact assessments work.

You claim it starts with the assumption that the law is needed, but the document literally walks through multiple policy options (see Section 6), including the baseline of no action, targeted enforcement, and soft-law approaches. It then weighs the pros and cons of each not just in terms of market dynamics, but with repeated references to consumer and business benefits of the existing ecosystems

In the EU legal framework, competition is the tool used to deliver price efficiency, innovation, and consumer choice. You’re importing a U.S. framework of “consumer welfare” as the direct target of antitrust but that’s not how the EU system works. It’s a structural regime, not a behavioral one.

In short, it was a sham designed to justify the actions that the EC had already decided it was going to take. And we know this for a fact because the law’s text leaked before the impact assessment was complete! It was not done in good faith and the entire DMA is tainted because of it.

The impact analysis is from 2020, it build on previous analysis such as from 2018…. The DMA leaked in 2022

 

[I7guy]

I mean wee Timmy as a customer & other customers of bells who buy their product but because of government regulation its dearer and now costs him more you don’t here people like him saying this is government overreach and it’s a disgrace What is happening

One thing has nothing to do with another thing. We agree the DMA is over regulation and by enacting the DMA the wsj commented on then eu’s philosophy. “Regulate don’t innovate”.

So if the EU is regulate not innovate then where are the other countries that are innovating that is outside of the EU

Again we’re discussing the eu.

Now it should be easy if that’s the case

Nothing is easy when it comes to government.

 

[Stuwil]

One thing has nothing to do with another thing. We agree the DMA is over regulation and by enacting the DMA the wsj commented on then eu’s philosophy. “Regulate don’t innovate”.

Again we’re discussing the eu.

Nothing is easy when it comes to government.

No we don’t agree the DMA is over regulating
Not in the slightest do I think that

If as you claim the EU stifles innovation then point to another country in the world that
IOS & android are not from and show me innovation regarding mobile OS?
It should be easy to do if as you claim the EU stifles innovation

Yes things are easy when it comes to government IF UNDERSTAND THE REASONS behind it.

 

[I7guy]

No we don’t agree the DMA is over regulating
Not in the slightest do I think that

Okay the DMA is over regulation. Period. Agree or not it is.

If as you claim the EU stifles innovation then point to another country in the world that
IOS & android are not from and show me innovation regarding mobile OS?

I’m not claiming it. The wsj and others are claiming it. I’m agreeing with them. “Regulate, don’t innovate” is the eu motto now.

It should be easy to do if as you claim the EU stifles innovation

Again I’m not making the claim. It was my opinion but I agree with the wsj.

Yes things are easy when it comes to government IF UNDERSTAND THE REASONS behind it.

Government sometimes things it’s doing the right thing. But things are born out of pettiness and mistiming rather than their citizens best interest.

 

[Stuwil]

Okay the DMA is over regulation. Period. Agree or not it is.

I’m not claiming it. The wsj and others are claiming it. I’m agreeing with them. “Regulate, don’t innovate” is the eu motto now.

Again I’m not making the claim. It was my opinion but I agree with the wsj.

Government sometimes things it’s doing the right thing. But things are born out of pettiness and mistiming rather than their citizens best interest.

If the EU stifles innovation with regulation then point to another country apart from
Where iOS and android are from
And tell me where the innovation is in regards to mobile OS’s
Anywhere in the World for example Cambodia?
And as Cambodia is not in the EU then it will be easy to find me some countries

 

[I7guy]

If the EU stifles innovation with regulation then point to another country apart from
Where iOS and android are from

Nothing to do with any other country. It’s been agreed from multiple source the new EU philosophy is “regulate don’t innovate”.

And tell me where the innovation is in regards to mobile OS’s

There is plenty of innovation happening in that space.

Anywhere in the World for example Cambodia?
And as Cambodia is not in the EU then it will be easy to find me some countries

Sources are directing their comments toward the EU. Although I did say a while back the DMA is a innovation killer.

 

[Stuwil]

Nothing to do with any other country. It’s been agreed from multiple source the new EU philosophy is “regulate don’t innovate”.

There is plenty of innovation happening in that space.

Sources are directing their comments toward the EU. Although I did say a while back the DMA is an innovation killer.

Well prove it’s an innovation regulation
By pointing to other countries that don’t have the DMA and they are providing innovation
In the mobile OS market apart from
Where iOS and android come from?
Like I will give you an example
In china there is innovation

 

[surferfb]

Well prove it’s an innovation regulation
By pointing to other countries that don’t have the DMA and they are providing innovation
In the mobile OS market apart from
Where iOS and android come from?

You're artificially limiting the definition of innovation.

If I pass a law making something that's already hard even harder, you pointing and saying "see, the hard thing is still hard in other places too" doesn't mean the law hasn't made things worse.

 

[I7guy]

Well prove it’s an innovation regulation
By pointing to other countries that don’t have the DMA and they are providing innovation
In the mobile OS market apart from
Where iOS and android come from?

All of the sources quoted that are essentially saying the same thing: the eu is regulating not innovating”. It’s all opinion obviously. There is no “proof” other than credentialed sources are independently saying the same thing.

 

[Stuwil]

You're artificially limiting the definition of innovation.

If I pass a law making something that's already hard even harder, you pointing and saying "see, the hard thing is still hard in other places too" doesn't mean the law hasn't made things worse.

If it’s an innovation killer
Then point to another country apart from where iOS and Android are from and show me innovation regarding mobile OS’s in the world
Because other countries don’t have this regulation so it should be easy

 

[surferfb]

If it’s an innovation killer
Then point to another country apart from where iOS and Android are from and show me innovation regarding mobile OS’s in the world
Because other countries don’t have this regulation so it should be easy

You are just repeating the same thing and not addressing my comment. Innovation is already hard. The DMA makes it harder.

 

[Stuwil]

All of the sources quoted that are essentially saying the same thing: the eu is regulating not innovating”. It’s all opinion obviously. There is no “proof” other than credentialed sources are independently saying the same thing.

Ok so there is no evidence then that you can offer just opinions that’s all?

 

[surferfb]

Ok so there is no evidence then that you can offer just opinions that’s all?

Draghi report, which was commissioned by the EU said:

For example, we claim to favour innovation, but we continue to add regulatory burdens onto European companies,
which are especially costly for SMEs and self-defeating for those in the digital sectors. More than half of SMEs in
Europe flag regulatory obstacles and the administrative burden as their greatest challenge

 

[Stuwil]

You are just repeating the same thing and not addressing my comment. Innovation is already hard. The DMA makes it harder.

If the DMA makes it harder to innovate then point to any country apart from the USA regarding mobile OS’s for innovation and I will take your point on board

 

[Stuwil]

Draghi report, which was commissioned by the EU said:

Where is the innovation regarding mobile OS’s in New Delhi or New Zealand
These places don’t have the DMA yet as far as I can tell there is no innovation regarding mobile OS’s in these countries

 

[surferfb]

Where is the innovation regarding mobile OS’s in New Delhi or New Zealand
These places don’t have the DMA yet as far as I can tell there is no innovation regarding mobile OS’s in these countries

You're arguing with a logical fallacy (the false cause fallacy).

Claim: There is no innovation in mobile OSs in New Delhi or New Zealand.
Implied reasoning: These places don’t have the DMA.
Conclusion: Therefore, the DMA is not a factor in hampering mobile OS innovation.

That is a logical fallacy; correlation does not imply causation. Innovation depends on many factors like market size, capital, and infrastructure. You can’t draw a global conclusion from two unrelated examples. And, the fact that China and the US are pumping out tons of innovation while the EU is having former government heads write detailed reports explaining why the EU is doing such a bad job at innovating (across multiple sectors, not just tech), is a pretty strong indicator that there's an innovation problem.

So the EU thinks there is a problem with EU innovation, and said report states "The EU’s extensive and stringent regulatory environment (exemplified by policies based on the precautionary principle) may, as a side effect, restrain innovation."

But sure, the lack of your narrow definition of innovation in Cambodia means that logical fallacies don't matter anymore.

 

[Stuwil]

You're arguing with a logical fallacy (the false cause fallacy).

Claim: There is no innovation in mobile OSs in New Delhi or New Zealand.
Implied reasoning: These places don’t have the DMA.
Conclusion: Therefore, the DMA is not a factor in hampering mobile OS innovation.

That is a logical fallacy; correlation does not imply causation. Innovation depends on many factors like market size, capital, and infrastructure. You can’t draw a global conclusion from two unrelated examples. And, the fact that China and the US are pumping out tons of innovation while the EU is having former government heads write detailed reports explaining why the EU is doing such a bad job at innovating (across multiple sectors, not just tech), is a pretty strong indicator that there's an innovation problem.

So the EU thinks there is a problem with EU innovation, and said report states "The EU’s extensive and stringent regulatory environment (exemplified by policies based on the precautionary principle) may, as a side effect, restrain innovation."

But sure, the lack of your narrow definition of innovation in Cambodia means that logical fallacies don't matter anymore.

So are you saying that what the Chinese government do is correct in terms of their state policies?
Unlike anywhere else in the world regarding mobile OS’s
Is that what you’re saying
Because if it is then it really doesn’t matter that the DMA exists

 

[surferfb]

So are you saying that what the Chinese government do is correct in terms of their state policies?
Unlike anywhere else in the world regarding mobile OS’s
Is that what you’re saying

No, all I am saying is your "but *insert country here* isn't innovating, and they don't have the DMA, therefore the DMA doesn't hurt innovation" argument is a logical fallacy and you should stop repeating it over and over because it doesn't help your case.

 

[Stuwil]

No, all I am saying is your "but *insert country here* isn't innovating, and they don't have the DMA, therefore the DMA doesn't hurt innovation" argument is a logical fallacy and you should stop repeating it over and over because it doesn't help your case.

if it’s logical fallacy then point to a country that innovation is flourishing in the mobile OS space because the DMA only covers the EU
So it should be pretty easy to give me a country where innovation is alive and well that’s not iOS and Android.
So for example the DMA is an innovation killer because in china they don’t have the DMA and innovation is alive and well there regarding mobile
Now that’s what I would say to combat the DMA is an innovation killer and that gets straight to the point

 

[surferfb]

if it’s logical fallacy then point to a country that innovation is flourishing in the mobile OS space because the DMA only covers the EU
So it should be pretty easy to give me a country where innovation is alive and well that’s not iOS and Android.
So for example the DMA is an innovation killer because in china they don’t have the DMA and innovation is alive and well there regarding mobile
Now that’s what I would say to combat the DMA is an innovation killer and that gets straight to the point

If your response to me pointing out that you're making a logical fallacy is to continue to repeat the logical fallacy then I don't think we have any more to say here.