Apple Asks Developers to Return DTK Mac Minis in Exchange for $200 Credit Toward M1 Mac

[Falhófnir]

This is one of those ‘optics’ things they’re usually good at stage managing. Either they should have done nothing at all and stuck to the letter of the agreement, or they should have gone the whole hog. Doing this half measure makes it seem like they’re bean-counting over a gesture, which is why it comes of as worse than doing nothing at all...

 

[developer13245]

I honestly don’t understand this. Surely I’m not the only one who knew before signing up that it wasn’t guaranteed for a year?

It was made clear in both plain communication and in the terms (which btw are very short and simple) that the DTK had to be returned upon Apple’s request and that the request would be made once the M1 machines would launch but whatever the case, it wouldn’t be longer than a year (not a guarantee of a year).

Ever since the M1 machines came out, the indie dev community on Twitter had been expressing that they expected this email to drop and now more and more devs come out of the woodworks saying that they were of the belief that they got to use it for a full year.

Apple waited until mid September to approve many program memberships. That's only 5 months of DTK use - not cool. It would have been better to just wait the 6ish weeks until the M1 mini shipped. WTF were they thinking when they offered them so close to the M1 Mini, knowing they were going to just ask for DTKs back when M1 shipped? That's just plain crummy.

Just because Apple CAN do whatever the hell it wants, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

And, where did they say DTK returns would be requested once the M1 machines would launch? If that was made clear it would have implied your time with the DTK would be limited to when M1 macs launched. Claiming the DTK would "help" until AS macs are released does NOT mean it's going to be "time's up" when M1 macs launched.

The DTK looked like a good way to bridge past the first AS (M1) Macs, and wait for the M2 or later updates. Developers generally are interested in higher performance machines and will pay more for that. $500 for a "disposable" DTK would have been worth it to get a better machine in the circa WWDC'21 timeframe.

The M1 only promo code expiration of May 31 2021 is a "squeeze play" because Apple will probably announce new hardware in the WWDCish timeframe. So you're forced to "use it or lose it" on an M1 before seeing their next Apple Silicon (AS) Macs. What makes this more egregious is WWDC is (was) supposed to be about developers, so any new hardware announced in that time frame would be of interest to developers.

In the end, Apple is desperate to generate AS mac sales numbers. The DTK program ended up being a con job.

Best plan is to update all your apps using the DTK before it goes back, and go without an AS mac as long as you can.
Apple can stick their DTKs where the sun don't shine for all I care.

 

[aknabi]

To those with the "whiny developer's entitlement" and "Apple never promised"... that's the MBA thinking that may look great short term, but kills long term.

And by your argument I'd say you're a hypocrite if you've ever complained about the service or quality in a restaurant... they just promised to give you the food listed on the menu you ordered... I guess the response could be "These whiny diners should be ashamed"?

The best platform requires the best devs... and it's hard to get the best devs... guess what they're entitled... they're like sports or rock stars... Apple used to treat them as such (anyone remember the 50% discounts?) and devs were religiously loyal... it cost Apple a good deal back then... doing that today would comparatively cost a penny.

 

[chucker23n1]

This is one of those ‘optics’ things they’re usually good at stage managing. Either they should have done nothing at all and stuck to the letter of the agreement, or they should have gone the whole hog. Doing this half measure makes it seem like they’re bean-counting over a gesture, which is why it comes of as worse than doing nothing at all...

This is the closest I find myself agreeing with. I bet there would've been a crapstorm if they had done nothing at all, too, but if they're gonna do something, $200 just doesn't seem like enough.

In the end, Apple is desperate to generate AS mac sales numbers. The DTK program ended up being a con job.

I highly doubt that. For one, the previous quarter, during which M1 Macs were only available for about half the time, was the second-biggest Mac quarter of all time.

And second, if this is a measure to boost Mac sales, it's a pointless one. Developers themselves are already a small slice of Mac users, but developers who bought a DTK are a tiny slice of that. Most development on a Mac targets either the Web or iOS, where testing on the DTK isn't useful. So that's already out. Then you have developers actually targeting the Mac. Of those, most don't have the budget and/or need to test their software on an ARM Mac on day one. And even of those who do, many work in teams. You only need one DTK per team, because all you're really doing is stuffing it in a closet somewhere so the entire team can try doing ARM builds on the side. So if your team has a dozen people, only one in a dozen will likely buy a DTK, if any team member at all.

 

[peneaux]

Way to support devs! Give them at least the $500 CASH back!

 

[poseidondev]

Wrong. If a user wants to take advantage of the May voucher, then sometime in May is quite literally a deadline for them to ship back the device. You can't receive the voucher unless the DTK is received by Apple. Optional of course.

You again make the assumption that there will be a choice to return the DTK “early”. You have yet to put forward anything remotely hinting at that. As it stands now everything points to them requesting a return before the end of this month, with the intention of finishing up the return process before the expiration of the discount code.
So no deadline.

Wrong again. If the email says return the device with a deadline of March 31, and I returned it on March 15, that quite literally is "returning early". If I'm scheduled to arrive at 9AM and but I arrived at 8:59AM, that would mean I arrived 1 minute early. This isn't something you can dispute.

Wrong. Aside from the fact that you seem to have no notion of the concept called “context” given that you limit yourself to a general definition of the word “early”. Even that wouldn’t fall within the definition of the word.
If they give you a time window within you need to return it and you return it within that time window, then that’s not early, that’s called returning it on time.
Regardless, what I meant was that there won’t be a process to return the DTK early, because you won’t be given a choice to keep it until a year after commencing membership in the program

Speak for yourself. You're assuming Apple is asking for the DTK earlier which in the email makes no specific mention of it.

Its called logic and comprehensive reading. They’ve indicated that they’re going to ask for it in the next few weeks and they’ve told you to get ready.
They’re not gonna tell you to get ready in February and that they’re going to send you instructions if you can sit on it until the end of the year.

Please state a specific sentence from the email of where the action of "or as otherwise earlier requested" is being carried out. Where in the email has Apple requested "earlier" of the return of the DTK device?

“We’ll email you in a few weeks with instructions for returning the DTK.”

There is your sentence. They have made it know that they will request it early. Hell you can consider this email that request should you so desire with instructions to follow on how.

Anyways, I’ll be looking forward to see how long you remain in denial before I get to tell you “I told you so”.

Enjoy packing up the DTK, I know I will

 

[farewelwilliams]

You again make the assumption that there will be a choice to return the DTK “early”.

If you return the DTK well before the due date, that would be early. That's not an assumption. That's a fact.

You have yet to put forward anything remotely hinting at that. As it stands now everything points to them requesting a return before the end of this month, with the intention of finishing up the return process before the expiration of the discount code.
So no deadline.

Speak for yourself. Your "everything points" evidence doesn't hold up. Tell me, what is going to be the last date of when people can return? You can't. Because you have no idea what the e-mail is going to say. All you have is "soon" which you agreed is subjective and it's very much applicable to those who were first to receive the DTKs in June.

Wrong. Aside from the fact that you seem to have no notion of the concept called “context” given that you limit yourself to a general definition of the word “early”. Even that wouldn’t fall within the definition of the word.

You were operating under an erroneous assumption that there was some imaginary special "early" definition defined in the agreement. That's not my problem. That's your problem.

If they give you a time window within you need to return it and you return it within that time window, then that’s not early, that’s called returning it on time.

"If". Keyword. So far no time window was given. I don't see the earliest date of when I can return the DTK. Do you?

Its called logic and comprehensive reading. They’ve indicated that they’re going to ask for it in the next few weeks and they’ve told you to get ready.
They’re not gonna tell you to get ready in February and that they’re going to send you instructions if you can sit on it until the end of the year.

Yes they're going to ask for it in the next few weeks but so far no timeframe was given. Could be 1 month. Could be 3 months. Could be after the end of the program. Fact is you don't know what the deadline is for all DTK holders.

“We’ll email you in a few weeks with instructions for returning the DTK.”

There is your sentence. They have made it know that they will request it early. Hell you can consider this email that request should you so desire with instructions to follow on how.

Nope. That's when the email is coming. Tell me, what timeline does that email say. You can't. If you can't tell me what the time frame the email is going to state, you cannot conclude this is where they're carrying out the clause of "or as otherwise earlier requested by Apple".

Anyways, I’ll be looking forward to see how long you remain in denial before I get to tell you “I told you so”.

Enjoy packing up the DTK, I know I will

I've already said the upcoming email could say return by March 1. It could also say after the end of the program. Either of those or similar outcomes do not prove me wrong one bit as my current stance is "nothing has changed so far, but it remains a possibility that the upcoming email could ask for it earlier than the 30-days-after-Term-ends".

But I'm willing to bet my wallet that you're going to ignore that aren't you?

 

[vmistery]

Whilst I wouldn't expect Apple to give away whole free Macs as the previous transition I have to admit I would have seen the $500 as more a deposit and would have expected at least the same value in return considering by porting the code early it benefits apple more than the Developer. However, they never said anyone would get anything so I guess we shouldn't be surprised, although they won't have the same level of good will next time something like this happens so it could bite them longer term.

 

[ksec]

Show me in the agreement where Apple promised a free machine after returning it? NO WHERE.

Getting the DTK is purely opt-in. It has always been the fact that these DTKs were to be returned after a year. Nothing has changed. You can keep the DTK for longer than may if you want to return it on the originally agreed upon date.

Nothing in the agreement changed.

I stand by my point. Developers are too self-entitled.

This is coming from me, a developer, that paid for the DTK as well.

I guess your DTK worked well then. /s

There is nothing entitled, paying $500 for a services that is quite literally non-existent.

 

[wave84]

I started reading this thread and I'm shocked by some of the replies defending Apple on this one. And I'm shocked by Apple's behaviour, in general.

Disclaimer: I didn't rent this machine, just stating my opinion on the situation. I'm a small developer from an eastern european country. So not exactly getting rich off of Apple's back. I own a social networking website here and had to enroll in the Developer program for a few years to maintain an app for my website in the AppStore. Purely as a hobby. Millions are in my situation. Only the big companies are getting rich, and I suspect the discussion about the 200$ coupon isn't really relevant for them.

Developers can choose to go to any platform they desire. In the end, they can even monetize a website, platform agnostic. They don't need Apple to the extent that Apple needs them. Without any apps, iOS / macOS aren't worth much. Developers are the ones who have to spend their precious time, to learn all of Apple's systems, to navigate all their idiosyncrasies, to accept all their (sometimes unfair) terms and conditions, to PAY the yearly fee (it was 100$ when I was enrolled) only to create apps for the Apple ecosystem. Again, this is not always about business. A lot of apps don't exist to generate income.

And what does Apple do in return? They charge developers for the privilege of using an underpowered, buggy machine, only to create and test apps for them. A forced analogy would be a company asking you for a fee to go and work for them, while allowing you to build your clientele there in exchange.
Never would I have imagined not returning the lease fee, in one form or another. The 200$ coupon is an insult in my opinion.

This is going to hurt Apple's ecosystem immensely. Not in a million years would I pay another dime to create any piece of software for them. The AppStore is going to be only for the big guys. This is the direction the Internet seems to be going in anyway, unfortunately.

 

[rkuo]

A huge number of DTK's were bricked with a firmware update. I had to wait a while to restore it since it required you to also be running a beta of big sur on a production mac. Pretty damn hard to develop on that thing. 200 is not enough compensation to put up with that crap.

 

[chucker23n1]

Developers can choose to go to any platform they desire. In the end, they can even monetize a website, platform agnostic. They don't need Apple to the extent that Apple needs them. Without any apps, iOS / macOS aren't worth much.

Apple does need developers, but there isn't a scenario where developers abandon Apple. No matter how poorly Apple treats developers, Microsoft isn't going to walk away from a significant portion of its Office revenues, or Adobe from its Creative Cloud and Document Cloud revenues.

Developers are the ones who have to spend their precious time, to learn all of Apple's systems, to navigate all their idiosyncrasies, to accept all their (sometimes unfair) terms and conditions, to PAY the yearly fee (it was 100$ when I was enrolled) only to create apps for the Apple ecosystem. Again, this is not always about business. A lot of apps don't exist to generate income.

Right. I will note that this isn't an unusual rate, though. It's high for those who really just want to create apps as a hobby, but it's actually low for those who don't. It's not unusual to pay four figures a year for development tools. (My team does.)

If anything, I would love for Apple to go back to a multi-tier system like they used to have with ADC Select and all, where you get hardware discounts, but also priority support.

This is going to hurt Apple's ecosystem immensely.

I don't see this making much of a dent at all. It's a bit of a sad story, and maybe it'll make a mark on next year's annual Apple Report Card at Six Colors (which has a developer relations section), but it'll otherwise be gone by next week.

Not in a million years would I pay another dime to create any piece of software for them.

Given that you didn't rent this machine in the first place, this doesn't make sense to me. It sounds like you were just waiting for another excuse not to develop software for Apple platforms.

 

[Kilibee]

9 pages of rants, and no one tried to contact Apple to find out, if they intended to request the devices back earlier or if they simply tried to use an incentive to send them back early?

 

[derekamoss]

This is how I see it. Should developers automatically expect something free from this program? No. Was there already a precedence set and it's ok for developers to express disappointment that the precedent wasn't met? Yes. Is the compensation Apple gave kind of petty and tackless? Yes, but what else would one expect from an Apple run by Tim Crook?

 

[timbals]

As a developer that got a DTK, I agree with the sentiment that the program was a failure and Apple should just refund the fee and take back the DTK. I actually wasn't going to get one, but Apple sent me an email asking me to apply in August so I did. (I have an App which has been App of the Day in multiple countries).

We expected a usable machine to help us develop and test our IOS apps for the new platform but it actually turned out to be impossible. It wasn't even possible to install git for most of its life time because you couldn't install the xcode command line tools and the lack of 4kb paging made getting anything to work impossible, especially once the M1 came out with 4kb page support. Even right now it isn't a usable machine. None of this was known before I applied to the program.

Support from apple was also non-existant.

I'm going to buy an M1 mac regardless, but the DTK just wasn't what it was promised to be and Apple wasted our time waiting this long to tell us their plan. I suspect the fact the January return period for Christmas M1 purchases just ending isn't a coincidence either and hints towards Apple greed.

 

[jclardy]

Really, Steve Troughton-Smith? Apple never promised you a thing, but you're complaining about a measly $200?

Really self entitled there.

I bet he saw that Apple gave developers a full iMac after returning the Intel transition kit and he was hoping to get a Mac mini after returning this DTK so that's why he got one. 🤦‍♂️

EDIT: Yup. That's exactly what he was banking on

https://twitter.com/x/status/1357116631110070272

I have a DTK. The program was a complete joke. $500 for iPad hardware in a Mac mini, which worked fine out of the box, but with every beta update it became more and more unstable to the point now where the USB ports are failing in the latest update. The secret forum for us to discuss issues with apple engineers turned out to be a self help support forum just used to see what the latest update broke and whether it was even safe to update.

The promise was a year to use the machine and of support, instead we got ~ 6 months, if you can even count what we got.

Then the problem is this, everyone who had to ship an app in the program had to buy an M1 mac already for proper testing, and 3 months later they announce this coupon. They would have been better off offering nothing...

 

[PBG4 Dude]

Reach out to the whiny developer of your choice on twitter and send them a PayPal gift payment. You could also set up a whiney developer go fund me page and distribute the money to those that can show proof they were in the program etc.

I bought Pixelmator Pro to support the developer since I got so much value from regular Pixelmator at the $25 sale price I bought it at long ago. I’ve done the same with Affinity apps, buying them on iOS as well as macOS.

 

[Falcon80]

I think the very least (convenient) Apple can do now is to extend the expiry date so that developers can use the credit to offset the next gen Mac.

 

[Souponastick270]

Have these developers never leased a car ? You pay monthly and then at the end of the contract you either:

a) return the car and that's it
b) pay off the rest of the cash and buy the car our right
c) trade the car in and the money is used as a deposit on the new lease

End of the day, they signed a contract, Apple don't have to offer you anything in return. If you were expecting a new M1 Mini for free just because of Apples past performance then that's on the the developers, Apple is a business not a charity at the end of the day.

 

[darkpaw]

I can't stand this Steve T-S guy. Really comes across as whiny and entitled here.

These developers entered an agreement that said they are paying $500 to have access to the DTK before anyone else. This gave them enough time to update their existing apps, or create new ones for the new chips - again, before anyone else - so they likely more than made up for the $300 they spent.

Accept the $200, and buy a Mac, or don't. Apple didn't have to gift you $200. They rarely give anything away, so just be happy with the discount, or quit your whining.

 

[chucker23n1]

Have these developers never leased a car ? You pay monthly and then at the end of the contract you either:

a) return the car and that's it
b) pay off the rest of the cash and buy the car our right
c) trade the car in and the money is used as a deposit on the new lease

This car analogy, like so many, doesn't really work well.

A car is a consumer product. The DTK isn't. For one, it is exclusively intended for developers, and of those, really only of the small slice of developers who intend to port their Mac apps to ARM. Second, it is not a final product. It is essentially a prototype device.

End of the day, they signed a contract, Apple don't have to offer you anything in return.

Nobody is arguing that Apple has to. They're lamenting Apple chose to do.

 

[MauiPa]

So a net cost of only $300 for early access to test developers software? That’s a pretty sweet deal. Let the complaining begin!

 

[garylapointe]

This is how Timmy gets his spreadsheets to look good!

Talk about all-round scummy behaviour from Apple.

This is $200 BETTER than the deal those developers made with Apple.

They paid to lease a machine and now Apple is offering them $200 if they return it early.
If you were going to buy a mini, this is a no-brainer deal.

 

[garylapointe]

It is essentially a prototype device.

A prototype that they have to give back!

 

[Justanotherfanboy]

Steve Jobs took care of Apple’s development community. When Jobs announced the transition from PowerPC to Intel, developers at WWDC 2005 could purchase an Intel Pentium 4 (installed in a PowerMac G5 case) DTK for $999

When Apple had those developers return those DTK, those developers were given a free Intel based iMac.

Tim Cook could either give those developers a base model M1 Mac mini or a $499 credit towards a new Mac. But no, gotta make money off of those who support your ecosystem. 🙄🙄

Remember, developers didn’t own those $999 Intel DTK or the $499 Apple Silicon DTK. Developers technically rented them for $999 and $499. But it was goodwill and to show appreciation on Job’s part to give the Intel DTK developers a free iMac.

Timmy could learn a thing or two.

Let’s quit looking through the rose colored rear view mirror & have a quick reality break, shall we?

The absurdity of comparing Apple’s position 16 years ago w/ their position today is absolute.

YES... if you’re trying to make the point that developing for MacOS (nèe OSX) was so niche at the time that Steve was forced to bribe developers, if responsible for making it more difficult- you win. That is conceded.
OSX was obscure, at best, & iOS didn’t even exist.
Fast forward to 2020/2021...
Ok- here’s how numbers work: if Apple were to give the development kits away for absolutely free ($500 up front, then the full $500 returned as a credit, later), surely you understand that the size of the ecosystem wouldn’t allow that, yeah?
Shoot.... I don’t develop AT ALL; but I still have a dev account from when I was in college. If I could have tried out a new Mac for free; I would have. So would millions upon millions upon millions of others.
Where in your mind do all these physical objects appear from? You get they must be built, yeah? You’re calling for Apple to ramp up & build millions of free computers for people to play with? That sounds batty, even if I wasn’t an investor. Anyone can see that would be an ignorant & untenable financial decision.
Sooooo... that is NOT how Tim ran the show. Perhaps he’s learned a few things? It wasn’t billed as a free computer. It was billed as a $500 rental. Now, let’s be honest, there’s still probably a lot of people that got their hands on one out of curiosity, rather than need... wouldn’t you agree? However, with a $500 price tag, not a $0 price tag; that limits who orders one to a reasonable and realistic amount.
Those who’d love to have one for free, may not be willing to pay $500 to rent one.
Ostensibly, we can assume- just like when you rent a car, then return it- these developers realized that after their $500 rental, they’d return the car, whoops... Mac.
I’ve never been offered all the money I paid on a rental to apply towards a new car- nor been offered a brand new car for free because I rented a car.... neither have you. Neither has anyone. That’s bonkers. Like really really crazy town.

The size of Apple’s ecosystem precludes Apple from doing all the cutesy little things that make you feel warm & fuzzy.
Not just from a financial standpoint, but from a LOGISTICAL standpoint.
When you look at these things from a place of logic, not emotion- it’s a lot easier to see the answer without jumping on the snark train & getting all Eeyore about how Tim must be out to bilk someone.