Apple Asks Federal Government to Stop iPhone Jailbreaking

[mark28]

i totally agree. the only reason apple doesnt want people to jailbreak is because jailbreaking can sometimes drain the battery and other things can go wrong. they dont people giving them a bad name because of something thats not in their control. also they want to be superior

but in all seriousness everyone should be able to alter their software as long as they understand what they are doing. Apple can void the warranty if they want so they dont have to fix others mistakes but they shoudnt be so obsessive about this when they have other problems they should be fixing

Bla bla bla, excuses.

The battery is drained pretty fast if it's not jailbroken already.

 

[WeegieMac]

No they can't.

Repossession doesn't work like that.

If you fall behind, they can and will ask for the phone to be returned.

If you ignore them, they go further. I'm not talking bailiffs, but they can take the phone back.

 

[fertilized-egg]

but in all seriousness everyone should be able to alter their software as long as they understand what they are doing. Apple can void the warranty if they want so they dont have to fix others mistakes but they shoudnt be so obsessive about this when they have other problems they should be fixing

I totally agree. I'd hate it if this Apple succeeds with this one. I certainly hope not. Let Jailbreak stay!

This is nonsense.

The phone becomes your property (and responsibility) when you take delivery of it.

I don't think it has anything to do with the phone itself. If I understand it correctly, Apple is claiming copyright on the software part which consumers don't own even if they paid for it.

 

[Daveoc64]

Spot on.

As I said, the terms mentioned above quote "ownership" but the bottom line is that you have to pay the rest of the cost of the phone over two years. You miss a payment or fall behind, the carrier can and will reclaim THEIR property as you failed to adhere to the "ownership" terms.

Totally different to someone who buys the phone outright.

This is simply not true.

Once you take delivery of the phone, title passes to you and you can do what you want with it.

You can sell it, throw it off a cliff, use it as a phone, smash it with a hammer etc.

If you do not meet the terms of the airtime contract, then there will be specific remedies within that contract that allow the carrier to reclaim the costs of the contract from you (note: not the cost of the phone).

This is typically through a debt collection agency. All they'll know is how much you owe the carrier - not what it is for. They have no right to come into your home and demand that you give them the phone.

 

[Daveoc64]

If you fall behind, they can and will ask for the phone to be returned.

If you ignore them, they go further. I'm not talking bailiffs, but they can take the phone back.

Please explain which legal right you think entitles them to do this?

I've provided quotes from contracts that state the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

You've not provided any evidence to match what you are saying.

 

[dukebound85]

If you fall behind, they can and will ask for the phone to be returned.

If you ignore them, they go further. I'm not talking bailiffs, but they can take the phone back.

Not in the US they don't.

They can cut your service until paid up or charge you an etf fee and cut you as a customer. You don't pay those, you get a bad credit rating and bill collectors after you. They do not repossess the phone

 

[WeegieMac]

This is simply not true.

Once you take delivery of the phone, title passes to you and you can do what you want with it.

You can sell it, throw it off a cliff, use it as a phone, smash it with a hammer etc.

If you do not meet the terms of the airtime contract, then there will be specific remedies within that contract that allow the carrier to reclaim the costs of the contract from you (note: not the cost of the phone).

This is typically through a debt collection agency. All they'll know is how much you owe the carrier - not what it is for. They have no right to come into your home and demand that you give them the phone.

I never said they would come into your home, READ and comment. I specifically said that I wasn't referring to the likes of bailiffs.

And if the cost of your remaining contract does go to a debt collector, the cost DOES include the remainder of the cost of the phone. The £35 per month is not only for services, it also incorporates the remainder of the cost of the phone over the period of the contract.

That's why you pay less for the phone up front the more you're willing to pay per month.

 

[The Phazer]

If you fall behind, they can and will ask for the phone to be returned.

If you ignore them, they go further. I'm not talking bailiffs, but they can take the phone back.

No, they cannot do this in the UK. Legally, the phone is a gift which you are given in exchange for taking out a 24 month contract.

If you fall behind they can ask for the phone to be returned, but such a request has absolutely no legal weight whatsoever, and in reality the only thing they can do is obtain a County Court Judgement against you for failure to pay the bill.

One would note there is quite a substantial amount of court precedent about this, especially relating to mobile phone contracts. The main reason T-Mobile recently relented on trying to reduce their data limits to existing customers is because they realised that by doing so they would allow people to skip out of their 24 month commitments - and by cancelling, they would still be eligible to keep the phone, even, if they'd only taken the contract out a month ago.

You're flat out legally 100% wrong on this one.

Phazer

The £35 per month is not only for services, it also incorporates the remainder of the cost of the phone over the period of the contract.

Nope, it would automatically reduce after the end of the contract term if that was the case. You are taking out a £35 a month contract for provision of a mobile line. If you take out the more overpriced contracts then you are given the phone as a free gift incentive.

I've previously taken Orange to small claims court on this and won.

 

[WeegieMac]

Not in the US they don't.

And where did I refer to the US. I'm talking to someone about UK contracts.

 

[nunes013]

Bla bla bla, excuses.

The battery is drained pretty fast if it's not jailbroken already.

i didnt said it doesnt. the things that kill it faster are those animated wallpapers and overclocking the cpu so that is not an excuse. im saying those are the "risks" and Apple will use them to try and stop jailbreaking. im 100% for jailbreaking and im just waiting to see what ATT does with that wireless hotspot before i do because that would be my main purpose for jb.

 

[Daveoc64]

And if the cost of your remaining contract does go to a debt collector, the cost DOES include the remainder of the cost of the phone. The £35 per month is not only for services, it also incorporates the remainder of the cost of the phone over the period of the contract.

That's why you pay less for the phone up front the more you're willing to pay per month.

This is true from a consumer point of view, but legally the phone has nothing to do with the contract (the risk of the customer "Stealing" the phone without continuing to pay their bill far outweighs the risks to the carrier of linking the device and the service together contractually).

 

[einmusiker]

Wrong. The carrier agrees to provide you with the phone at a reduced/subsidised rate as long as you pass a credit agreement and take out the minimum term. The rest of the cost of the phone is covered by the monthly fee which also incorporates the cost of services (minutes/texts).

A phone on contract is not "yours" until the contract is finished.

To quote the O2 contract conditions:

"2.4 The Equipment that we deliver to you or which is collected by you, becomes your
responsibility once it is collected or received by you at which time ownership will pass to you,
subject to paragraph 2.5."

(Paragraph 2.5 refers to the phone being faulty/not as described etc. with the right to return the product in those scenarios).

All other carriers have similar terms and conditions.

They do this to mitigate liability on their part when you are using the phone. If they continued to own the phone during the contract period, the carrier might have more legal responsibility to repair or replace the phone in the event of fault or loss.

ouch! is that crow your eating tasty?

 

[dukebound85]

And where did I refer to the US. I'm talking to someone about UK contracts.

Then don't make blanket statements like what you posted earlier

Hence, why I specifically pointed out the US in my response

It's funny how people on a contract think it's "their phone".

It's the carriers phone, and until you pay back the subsidised cost via your monthly bill over 18/24 months, it remains the carriers.

That's why I bought mine SIM free from Apple, because then it is truly mine and I'm not in debt to a carrier for two years.

With that all said, I must ask if you enjoy paying the same rates as those with subsidized phones whose rates supposably pay for the remainder of their phone

In other words, the subsidy only deals with having you as a definite customer for 2 years and if not, making you pay an ETF to get out of the obligation. The rates do not pay off the phone. The subsidy merely entices people to enter into multi year contracts. So no, the phone is not the carriers under contract as has been well pointed out already

 

[WeegieMac]

No, they cannot do this in the UK. Legally, the phone is a gift which you are given

If you fall behind they can ask for the phone to be returned, but such a request has absolutely no legal weight whatsoever, and in reality the only thing they can do is obtain a County Court Judgement against you for failure to pay the bill.

One would note there is quite a substantial amount of court precedent about this, especially relating to mobile phone contracts. The main reason T-Mobile recently relented on trying to reduce their data limits to existing customers is because they realised that by doing so they would allow people to skip out of their 24 month commitments - and by cancelling, they would still be eligible to keep the phone, even, if they'd only taken the contract out a month ago.

You're flat out legally 100% wrong on this one.

Phazer

It's not legally a "gift".

You pay for the phone over the term of the contract, the less you pay up front the more you are required to pay per month. If you pay more up front for the phone, you can pay a lower monthly fee ... but the phone is not a "gift".

 

[mtnDewFTW]

Personally, I like iOS the way it is. I've been using it for years and never even thought of jailbreaking it. But if you think Apple sucks maybe you should switch to Android

 

[WeegieMac]

This is true from a consumer point of view, but legally the phone has nothing to do with the contract (the risk of the customer "Stealing" the phone without continuing to pay their bill far outweighs the risks to the carrier of linking the device and the service together contractually).

As I said, I've had contracts before and paid to get out of them early, carriers have too much power and I don't like to be in debt to a company for two years to pay for a phone.

That's why I've bought all phones on PAYG or SIM free since. The phone is truly mine, bought and paid for with no strings attached.

 

[Deeya]

Apple doesn't like jailbreakers eating into those profits from the 10 billion downloaded apps.

I doubt they will, but if the government rules that jailbreaking a phone is illegal, Apple can kiss my paltry amount of money goodbye. I pay for the phone, I pay for the service agreement, I can do whatever I want to with it. If I choose to smash it with a hammer, and pay out the contract or the ETF, that's my choice.

The other problem I can see, if they allow it with phones, whats to stop them from doing it with computers as well? If they migrate to modal computing, and you can only buy and install apps from the Mac App store, what about legacy apps that aren't ported? What about old apps that are supported, but you have to buy the "new" App Store version. That is a can of worms I don't want to see opened.

 

[skunk]

Though I've never bothered with jailbreaking, I don't really see the point of this move. Once you jailbreak, I would have thought that at the very least you'd be on your own, warrantywise.

 

[The Phazer]

It's not legally a "gift".

Yes, it is. As I've said, I've tested this in court and won, and lots of T-mobile customers have had a lot of success this week doing exactly the same.

You pay for the phone over the term of the contract, the less you pay up front the more you are required to pay per month. If you pay more up front for the phone, you can pay a lower monthly fee ... but the phone is not a "gift".

It doesn't matter, the phone cost is not broken out separately, as it would legally have to be, in the bill. Hence that payment is for the line, and the phone is a gift.

Phazer

 

[elistan]

What AT&T says you can and cannot do with your device:
http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-ph...reless+Customer+Agreement&subSection=myDevice
(Basically - cannot unlock, and must maintain compatibility. Nothing specifically forbidding jailbreaking per se.)

What AT&T says your obligations are while under contract:
http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-ph...ent&subSection=whatHappensIfMyServIsCancelled
(Basically - if you cancel early you owe an ETF. They do not retain possession of the phone, and they do not demand the phone back.)

 

[Shockwave78]

It does not matter if it becomes illegal or not, forums like this will still be around talking about it just as much, the people that develop the jailbreaks will still do it. The will just host them in other countries or torrent them.

 

[meechy]

Yet, if you don't pay your bill (ie: pay for the remainder of the phone), they can arrange to have it "repossessed".

"Ownership" in those terms is extremely vague. It's not the same "ownership" as someone who buys the phone outright, as the power remains with carrier.

I'll never enter a contract again, carriers have too much power when you're locked in.

And how do they arrange for a mobile phone to be repossessed? LOL

You are talking complete and utter nonsense, even if you dont keep up with the monthly payments, they never repossess the phone. They will cut your service off and ask for the bill to be paid, if the bill is still not paid then it is most likely passed onto a debt collecting agency, who will try and recover the debt.

And oh yes, as soon as you walk out of the shop with the phone on contract, you legally "own" the phone, as stated in the O2 terms which were posted earlier in this thread.

 

[kdarling]

It's funny how people on a contract think it's "their phone".

It's the carriers phone, and until you pay back the subsidised cost via your monthly bill over 18/24 months, it remains the carriers.

Lots of comments on this post, but they all missed the ownership point in relation to this thread about jailbreaking:

It might be your phone. It might be the carrier's. But it sure as heck isn't Apple's !!

 

[Applejuiced]

Yet, if you don't pay your bill (ie: pay for the remainder of the phone), they can arrange to have it "repossessed".

"Ownership" in those terms is extremely vague. It's not the same "ownership" as someone who buys the phone outright, as the power remains with carrier.

I'll never enter a contract again, carriers have too much power when you're locked in.

What kind of nonsense are you trying to post. Reposses your cellphone if you don't pay your bill?

 

[OneMike]

It's funny how people on a contract think it's "their phone".

It's the carriers phone, and until you pay back the subsidised cost via your monthly bill over 18/24 months, it remains the carriers.

That's why I bought mine SIM free from Apple, because then it is truly mine and I'm not in debt to a carrier for two years.

nonsense

When you cancel your contract outside the 30 day window that you signed up do they make you return the phone or force you to pay a high ETF? Exactly..

When you take delivery of the phone it is yours.